The New Sudoku Players' Forum

by **JPF** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:09 pm

Code: Select all: . . 1 | 2 3 4 | 5 . . . . 6 | . . . | 7 . . . . 4 | . . . | 3 . . -------+-------+------- . 8 . | . . . | . 3 . 4 . . | . 1 . | . . 8 . 7 . | . . . | . 2 . -------+-------+------- . . 5 | . . . | 9 . . . . . | 6 . 7 | . . . . . . | . 4 . | . . . ER=4.2

Code: Select all: . . 1 | 2 3 4 | 5 . . . . 4 | . . . | 6 . . . . 7 | . . . | 8 . . -------+-------+------- . 7 . | . . . | . 4 . 5 . . | . 6 . | . . 9 . 2 . | . . . | . 8 . -------+-------+------- . . 8 | . . . | 1 . . . . . | 7 . 5 | . . . . . . | . 9 . | . . . ER=7.1

Code: Select all: ratings : 1.2 - 1.5 - 1.7 - 2.0 - 2.3 - 2.5 - 2.6 - 2.8 - 3.0 - 4.2 - 4.4 - 4.5 - 5.6 - 6.6 - 6.9 - 7.1 - 7.2 Current score : Points Bonus Total TTHsieh 68 20 88 JPF 85 -20+30 95

JPF

by **TTHsieh** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:14 am

Code: Select all: . . 3 | 4 5 6 | 7 . . . . 8 | . . . | 1 . . . . 5 | . . . | 2 . . - - - + - - - + - - - . 1 . | . . . | . 5 . 3 . . | . 9 . | . . 2 . 4 . | . . . | . 9 . - - - + - - - + - - - . . 9 | . . . | 4 . . . . . | 8 . 1 | . . . . . . | . 2 . | . . . ER=4.6

Code: Select all: . . 3 | 4 5 6 | 7 . . . . 6 | . . . | 1 . . . . 8 | . . . | 2 . . - - - + - - - + - - - . 1 . | . . . | . 6 . 5 . . | . 9 . | . . 2 . 8 . | . . . | . 3 . - - - + - - - + - - - . . 9 | . . . | 8 . . . . . | 1 . 3 | . . . . . . | . 2 . | . . . ER=7.3

TTHsieh

by **JPF** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:39 am

Code: Select all: . . 1 | 2 3 4 | 5 . . . . 3 | . . . | 6 . . . . 7 | . . . | 8 . . -------+-------+------- . 2 . | . . . | . 3 . 1 . . | . 7 . | . . 9 . 6 . | . . . | . 5 . -------+-------+------- . . 5 | . . . | 2 . . . . . | 6 . 1 | . . . . . . | . 8 . | . . . ER=6.8

Code: Select all: . . 1 | 2 3 4 | 5 . . . . 6 | . . . | 3 . . . . 4 | . . . | 7 . . -------+-------+------- . 5 . | . . . | . 1 . 6 . . | . 8 . | . . 9 . 2 . | . . . | . 7 . -------+-------+------- . . 7 | . . . | 2 . . . . . | 5 . 6 | . . . . . . | . 1 . | . . . ER=7.8

JPF

by **TTHsieh** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:55 am

Code: Select all: . . 3 | 4 5 6 | 7 . . . . 4 | . . . | 1 . . . . 6 | . . . | 2 . . - - - + - - - + - - - . 3 . | . . . | . 6 . 7 . . | . 2 . | . . 1 . 4 . | . . . | . 5 . - - - + - - - + - - - . . 2 | . . . | 9 . . . . . | 3 . 5 | . . . . . . | . 8 . | . . . ER=4.0

Code: Select all: . . 3 | 4 5 6 | 7 . . . . 9 | . . . | 1 . . . . 5 | . . . | 2 . . - - - + - - - + - - - . 8 . | . . . | . 9 . 5 . . | . 8 . | . . 7 . 4 . | . . . | . 6 . - - - + - - - + - - - . . 8 | . . . | 4 . . . . . | 9 . 7 | . . . . . . | . 2 . | . . . ER=8.9

TTHsieh

by **JPF** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:00 pm

Code: Select all: . . 1 | 2 3 4 | 5 . . . . 6 | . . . | 7 . . . . 8 | . . . | 3 . . -------+-------+------- . 2 . | . . . | . 9 . 9 . . | . 6 . | . . 7 . 4 . | . . . | . 8 . -------+-------+------- . . 2 | . . . | 4 . . . . . | 5 . 8 | . . . . . . | . 7 . | . . . ER=6.7

Code: Select all: . . 1 | 2 3 4 | 5 . . . . 6 | . . . | 7 . . . . 2 | . . . | 8 . . -------+-------+------- . 7 . | . . . | . 1 . 3 . . | . 2 . | . . 6 . 4 . | . . . | . 5 . -------+-------+------- . . 3 | . . . | 4 . . . . . | 7 . 9 | . . . . . . | . 5 . | . . . ER=7.0

Code: Select all: ratings : 1.2 - 1.5 - 1.7 - 2.0 - 2.3 - 2.5 - 2.6 - 2.8 - 3.0 - 4.0 - 4.2 - 4.4 - 4.5 - 4.6 - 5.6 - 6.6 - 6.7 - 6.8 - 6.9 - 7.0 - 7.1 - 7.2 - 7.3 - 7.8 - 8.9 Current score : Points Bonus Total TTHsieh 150 20 170 JPF 175 -20+30 185

JPF

by **TTHsieh** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:26 am

Code: Select all: . . 3 | 4 5 6 | 7 . . . . 5 | . . . | 1 . . . . 9 | . . . | 2 . . - - - + - - - + - - - . 4 . | . . . | . 3 . 3 . . | . 7 . | . . 2 . 1 . | . . . | . 9 . - - - + - - - + - - - . . 6 | . . . | 5 . . . . . | 1 . 8 | . . . . . . | . 9 . | . . . ER=3.6

Code: Select all: . . 3 | 4 5 6 | 7 . . . . 8 | . . . | 5 . . . . 9 | . . . | 1 . . - - - + - - - + - - - . 6 . | . . . | . 4 . 3 . . | . 2 . | . . 5 . 1 . | . . . | . 2 . - - - + - - - + - - - . . 4 | . . . | 2 . . . . . | 1 . 3 | . . . . . . | . 8 . | . . . ER=8.5

TTHsieh

by **JPF** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:46 am

Code: Select all: . . 1 | 2 3 4 | 5 . . . . 3 | . . . | 6 . . . . 7 | . . . | 8 . . -------+-------+------- . 9 . | . . . | . 4 . 5 . . | . 8 . | . . 1 . 2 . | . . . | . 6 . -------+-------+------- . . 2 | . . . | 7 . . . . . | 8 . 9 | . . . . . . | . 4 . | . . . ER=3.4

Code: Select all: . . 1 | 2 3 4 | 5 . . . . 3 | . . . | 6 . . . . 7 | . . . | 1 . . -------+-------+------- . 2 . | . . . | . 4 . 3 . . | . 5 . | . . 7 . 6 . | . . . | . 5 . -------+-------+------- . . 5 | . . . | 2 . . . . . | 8 . 6 | . . . . . . | . 7 . | . . . ER=5.7

JPF

by **Mauricio** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:06 am

Wow, this pattern yields many different ratings. When I saw this pattern, many ratings have been posted, so I decided not to take part in this game and instead I focused my efforts in finding minimal fully symmetric puzzles with high number of clues. Hopefully I'll find a 33, I have over 8K 32's now (just 3 different patterns).

by **m_b_metcalf** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:49 pm

Mauricio wrote:Wow, this pattern yields many different ratings. When I saw this pattern, many ratings have been posted, so I decided not to take part in this game and ...

Following my hard-disk crash and a two-months' absence I still don't have my environment re-established, so can't yet implement the new rules. So I, too, am abstaining from this one. However, for the record, I did find an 18-clue puzzle lurking in this pattern:

Code: Select all: . . . 1 3 4 7 . . . . 5 . . . 3 . . . . 2 . . . 8 . . . 7 . . . . . 1 . . . . . 6 . . . 5 . 4 . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . 4 . . . . . 7 . 5 . . . . . . . 8 . . . .

Regards,

Mike Metcalf

by **TTHsieh** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:54 am

Code: Select all: . . 3 | 4 5 6 | 7 . . . . 5 | . . . | 4 . . . . 9 | . . . | 2 . . - - - + - - - + - - - . 6 . | . . . | . 1 . 7 . . | . 4 . | . . 2 . 3 . | . . . | . 9 . - - - + - - - + - - - . . 6 | . . . | 5 . . . . . | 3 . 1 | . . . . . . | . 8 . | . . . ER=8.3

TTHsieh

by **JPF** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:04 pm

TTHsieh,

I have a big problem.
Nothing in the rules to solve it.

You posted these 2 puzzles :

Code: Select all: . . 3 | 4 5 6 | 7 . . . . 9 | . . . | 1 . . . . 5 | . . . | 2 . . - - - + - - - + - - - . 8 . | . . . | . 9 . 5 . . | . 8 . | . . 7 . 4 . | . . . | . 6 . - - - + - - - + - - - . . 8 | . . . | 4 . . . . . | 9 . 7 | . . . . . . | . 2 . | . . . ER=8.9

Code: Select all: . . 3 | 4 5 6 | 7 . . . . 8 | . . . | 5 . . . . 9 | . . . | 1 . . - - - + - - - + - - - . 6 . | . . . | . 4 . 3 . . | . 2 . | . . 5 . 1 . | . . . | . 2 . - - - + - - - + - - - . . 4 | . . . | 2 . . . . . | 1 . 3 | . . . . . . | . 8 . | . . . ER=8.5

but there are isomorphic !

Here are the permutations to go from I to II :
(1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9)->(9,8,7,4,5,6,3,2,1)
row(2,3)row(4,6)col(1,9)col(2,8)col(3,7)

btw, it's the first time I see such a rating difference between 2 isomorphic puzzles.

With gsf's ratings, I get very low and distinct ratings too : 9278 and 17470.

What do you suggest we do ?

JPF

by **Mauricio** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:51 pm

JPF wrote:but there are isomorphic !
What do you suggest we do ?

That is funny, I knew it would happen some day (especially if you do not remove isomorphic copies before rating them).
My first thought would be to suggest we keep the lowest rated, and add a new rule: "non isomorphic to the previous posted". After a second thought it seems that the highest rated can be found first, and after that we could find an isomorpic copy with lower ER, so which do we choose?
So my final suggestion is to keep both puzzles.

by RW » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:03 pm

JPF wrote:btw, it's the first time I see such a rating difference between 2 isomorphic puzzles.

That is very strange... Here's the situation where SE resolves to the 8.9 move (upto this point the solving path of the two puzzles are identical):

Code: Select all: *--------------------------------------------------------------------* | 12 12 3 | 4 5 6 | 7 8 9 | | 48 67 9 | 2378 37 238 | 1 345 3456 | | 48 67 5 | 1378 1379 1389 | 2 34 346 | |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------| | 367 8 1267 | 12367 13467 1234 | 5 9 124 | | 5 129 126 | 126 8 1249 | 3 124 7 | | 379 4 127 | 12357 1379 12359 | 8 6 12 | |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------| | 679 12359 8 | 1356 136 135 | 4 127 1235 | | 12 35 124 | 9 134 7 | 6 1235 8 | | 67 135 1467 | 13568 2 13458 | 9 1357 135 | *--------------------------------------------------------------------*

The equivalent to the 8.5 move used at this point in the second puzzle would be this region forcing chain:

Code: Select all: [r8c8]-3-[r3c8]-4-[r3c9] [r8c5]-3-[r2c5]-7-[r2c2]-6-[r3c2]=6=[r3c9] [r8c2]=5=[r8c8]-5-[r2c8]=5=[r2c9]=6=[r3c9]

(For all possible candidates '3' in row 8 r3c9<>4)

But, for some reason SE doesn't see this... To eliminate the same candidate in r3c9, SE would this time use a 9.0 dynamic region forcing chain focusing on all candidates '6' in box 3. Seems that because of some bug SE fails to recognize the easier move. I wonder if there are other puzzles that have been rated to high because of something like this.

RW

by **ronk** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:32 pm

JPF wrote:What do you suggest we do ?

Based on RW's analysis of a probable BUG in Sudoku Explainer, and as I have no horse in this race

, my unbiased opinion is:

1) If the puzzle with the suspect higher SE rating was the second to be presented, it should be discarded.

2) If the puzzle with the suspect higher rating was presented first, it should be kept, but at the lower rating of its isomorph. Even in this case, the second puzzle presented would be the one discarded.

Are there other puzzles with incorrect higher-than-deserved ratings? Probably, but we cannot fix what we don't even know about.

by **TTHsieh** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:29 pm

Mauricio wrote:non isomorphic to the previous posted.

add this new rule and keep the first posted will solve the problem.

TTHsieh

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