The SUPERIOR thread

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Postby Ocean » Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:07 pm

Red Ed wrote:
Ocean wrote:I think this one contains a hidden triple, in addition to the x-wing.
Only the x-wing is required to solve.
This one might have 2 naked triples, in addition to several doubles, plus an x-wing.
The triples aren't needed, though the x-wing is.

Puzzles that require at least 2 triples to be resolved seem remarkably hard to find. I don't think there are any examples in tarek's list that require 2 hidden triples, for example.


Thanks for your comments!

Finally got my "X-wing and Triples finder" up and running. Therefore those ten candidates - there were some accumulated puzzles.

It seems necessary to to check that the triple is not destroyed by the x-wing, hope I found a foolproof method now. Here are two puzzles, this time hopefully with a required X-wing, plus a required hidden triple (reciprocal to naked quads):
Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . 1 | 8 . . | 3 . . |
| . 8 . | 9 . . | . 7 4 |
| . 7 . | 3 . 2 | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . 8 | . . . | 7 9 . |
| . 6 . | . . . | . 2 . |
| . 1 7 | . . . | 5 . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | 2 . 5 | . 1 . |
| 7 5 . | . . 9 | . 3 . |
| . . 6 | . . 8 | 9 . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
#
+-------+-------+-------+
| 8 . 9 | . . 7 | . . 4 |
| . . . | . . . | . . . |
| . . 7 | 1 . 2 | 5 . 8 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| 9 . 2 | 8 3 5 | 7 . . |
| . . . | . . . | . . . |
| . . 1 | 2 4 9 | 8 . 5 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| 2 . 8 | 5 . 1 | 3 . . |
| . . . | . . . | . . . |
| 3 . . | 9 . . | 1 . 2 |
+-------+-------+-------+


Two x-wings and nothing more:
Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | 1 . 7 | 8 . . |
| . . . | 8 . . | . 7 9 |
| . . . | . 9 . | 3 . 5 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . 4 2 | . . . | 6 . 7 |
| . 1 3 | . . . | 5 2 . |
| 5 . 7 | . . . | 4 9 . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| 2 . 4 | . 1 . | . . . |
| 6 7 . | . . 3 | . . . |
| . . 5 | 7 . 9 | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
#
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | 2 . 5 | . 7 . |
| 7 . 5 | . 3 . | . . 2 |
| . 3 . | 9 . 7 | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| 5 . 6 | . . . | 8 . . |
| . 8 . | . . . | . 3 . |
| . . 1 | . . . | 6 . 7 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | 4 . 1 | . 9 . |
| 9 . . | . 6 . | 7 . 8 |
| . 7 . | 5 . 9 | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
#
+-------+-------+-------+
| . 7 . | 1 . . | . . 6 |
| 8 . . | . . 6 | . . 7 |
| . . . | . . 7 | 4 5 . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . 9 | . 5 3 | . . . |
| . 1 . | 7 . 8 | . 4 . |
| . . . | 9 4 . | 6 . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . 8 3 | 5 . . | . . . |
| 1 . . | 3 . . | . . 8 |
| 6 . . | . . 9 | . 1 . |
+-------+-------+-------+
Ocean
 
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Postby vidarino » Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:24 pm

Red Ed wrote:Wow -- that neatly debunks my previous statement: your first grid is the only example so far of a puzzle that needs 2 hidden triples to be resolved. Oh, and an x-wing.


Happy to be of service. ;-)
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Postby tarek » Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:52 pm

Ocean,
nice collection of puzzles..... as the bar for submitting puzzles has risen from 3 to 4, your puzzles 01,02,06,09 will not join the list.

Ruud,
Nice replacement

Vidar,
Nice puzzles, I don't think we had yet our puzzle that requires two seperate steps hidden triples. This is maybe unfair, but both the hidden triples can be seen in the same step, so recognised as only 1 (although both are needed)...This means that the ranking of your 3rd puzzle would be better than your 1st:( , anyway all went on the list:D

with the new adiition of 15 new puzzles, we have passed the 90 mark.

So the bar should rise again to ............ 7

That means roughly...... 2 x-wings with at least a naked double or a hidden triple with at least a naked double according to the formula....

I will rearrange some of your entries, so that entries starting at 90 should all above or equal the 7 mark....

The max number of x-wings was 3 by gsf puzzle#50

tarek
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Postby Ocean » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:21 pm

Here is a puzzle where both a hidden triple and an x-wing seems to be required, since the hidden triple reduction is applied before the x-wing can be applied.

Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| 9 . . | 4 . 5 | . . 6 |
| . 1 . | . . . | . 8 . |
| . . . | 9 . 1 | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . 8 | . . . | 5 . 4 |
| . . . | 7 . 2 | . . . |
| 6 . 4 | . . . | 2 . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | 3 . 6 | . . . |
| . 2 . | . . . | . 1 . |
| 5 . . | 2 . 4 | . . 8 |
+-------+-------+-------+

Next one requires XW+HD, and probably HT.

Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . . 4 | . . . |
| . . . | 9 3 . | 2 8 . |
| . . . | . 2 . | . . 7 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . 3 . | . . . | . 1 8 |
| 6 2 8 | . . . | 7 5 3 |
| 5 7 . | . . . | . 9 . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| 1 . . | . 5 . | . . . |
| . 8 9 | . 6 2 | . . . |
| . . . | 1 . . | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+

Here I count three separate X-wings (on different steps):

Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| 4 . . | . . . | . . 7 |
| . . 3 | . . . | 2 . . |
| . 7 . | 6 . 3 | . 9 . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . 6 | . 8 . | 7 . . |
| . . . | 9 . 5 | . . . |
| . . 2 | . 4 . | 9 . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . 5 . | 3 . 4 | . 8 . |
| . . 7 | . . . | 6 . . |
| 8 . . | . . . | . . 5 |
+-------+-------+-------+
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Postby Ruud » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:53 pm

Code: Select all
. . .|6 . .|. . .
. 4 7|1 . .|. . .
8 9 .|. 4 .|. 1 3
-----+-----+-----
. . 1|. . 4|. 2 .
2 . .|. 9 .|. . 8
. 3 .|8 . .|5 . .
-----+-----+-----
4 5 .|. 7 .|. 3 6
. . .|. . 6|8 4 .
. . .|. . 5|. . .

2 x-wings in separate steps, 2 naked pairs, 3 hidden pairs. Should make the grade...

Ruud.
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Postby Red Ed » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:29 pm

tarek wrote:So the bar should rise again to ............ 7
Aaahh, so no room for a minimal quarter turn rotationally-symmetric sum-to-10 that has a hidden triple and a nice little bit of Fibonacci at the top left. Oh well, in that case please replace my puzzle #068 with the following:
Code: Select all
 . 1 . 5 . . . . .
 . . 2 3 . . . . 4
 . . 8 . . . 3 7 .
 . . . . 1 . . 2 5
 . . . 6 . 4 . . .
 5 8 . . 9 . . . .
 . 3 7 . . . 2 . .
 6 . . . . 7 8 . .
 . . . . . 5 . 9 .
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Postby ravel » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:58 pm

Red Ed, you are my favourite for the best design:)
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Postby ab » Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:42 pm

not sure if this meets your new specs. needs a naked triple and a hidden pair. the naked triple is paired with a hidden triple.
Code: Select all
.2.|...|.4.
8..|.4.|..3
...|7.5|...
-----------
.89|...|56.
1..|...|..7
.57|...|21.
-----------
...|9.8|...
4..|.3.|..9
.6.|...|.5.
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Postby Ocean » Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:33 am

X-wing followed by hidden triple (with quad counterpart):

Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | 8 . . | . . . |
| . . 3 | . 2 . | 5 . 7 |
| . 9 . | 1 . 5 | . 4 . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . 7 | . . . | 2 . 4 |
| . 6 . | . . . | . 3 . |
| 2 . 1 | . . . | 8 . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . 1 . | 5 . 6 | . 7 . |
| 5 . 8 | . 3 . | 4 . . |
| . . . | . . 2 | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+

Hidden triple with quad counterpart, followed by X-wing:

Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . 1 7 | . . . |
| . 8 5 | 2 . . | . . . |
| 4 . 6 | 8 . . | . . 2 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| 6 . 9 | . . . | 1 . . |
| 7 5 . | . . . | . 6 3 |
| . . 4 | . . . | 9 . 5 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| 8 . . | . . 4 | 7 . 1 |
| . . . | . . 3 | 6 2 . |
| . . . | 7 8 . | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+

Hidden triple with 5-tuple counterpart, followed by X-wing:

Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . 6 | . 8 . | . . . |
| 4 . . | 5 . . | 2 . . |
| . 2 . | 1 . 9 | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| 5 9 2 | . . . | . 1 . |
| . . 1 | . . . | 7 . . |
| . 8 . | . . . | 5 9 2 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | 7 . 6 | . 4 . |
| . . 3 | . . 2 | . . 7 |
| . . . | . 5 . | 3 . . |
+-------+-------+-------+

X-wing followed by hidden triple with 5-tuple counterpart:

Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| . 6 . | . 7 . | . 9 . |
| 9 . 1 | 6 . . | 5 . . |
| . 8 . | . 9 . | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . 1 . | . . . | . 3 . |
| 7 . 8 | . . . | 9 . 2 |
| . 9 . | . . . | . 6 . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . 5 . | . 4 . |
| . . 4 | . . 3 | 7 . 1 |
| . 3 . | . 8 . | . 2 . |
+-------+-------+-------+

Three X-wings (?), with some naked pairs in between:

Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . 3 | . 7 . | 8 . . |
| . 7 . | . . 9 | 3 . . |
| . . . | 8 . . | 4 6 . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| 3 . . | . 1 . | 9 . . |
| . 9 5 | . . . | 2 4 . |
| . . 7 | . 9 . | . . 5 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . 1 4 | . . 3 | . . . |
| . . 9 | 7 . . | . 2 . |
| . . 2 | . 4 . | 6 . . |
+-------+-------+-------+

Xwing followed by hidden triple (with quad counterpart):

Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| 6 . 8 | 3 . . | 2 . 7 |
| . . . | 2 . 4 | . . 6 |
| 7 . . | . . 8 | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| 1 3 . | . . . | . 6 . |
| . . . | . . . | . . . |
| . 7 . | . . . | . 9 2 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | 7 . . | . . 5 |
| 3 . . | 4 . 1 | . . . |
| 2 . 7 | . . 5 | 3 . 9 |
+-------+-------+-------+

Hidden triple with quad counterpart, followed by X-wing:

Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . . . | . . . |
| 6 7 . | . 1 . | . 4 2 |
| 3 9 . | . . . | 5 . 1 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . 3 | . . 9 | . . . |
| 2 . . | 1 . 4 | . . 8 |
| . . . | 6 . . | 2 . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| 8 . 9 | . . . | . 5 4 |
| 1 5 . | . 7 . | . 2 6 |
| . . . | . . . | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
Ocean
 
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Postby tarek » Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:09 pm

vidarino wrote:Feel free to scrap my three lowest ranking ones to make room for these, if they measure up.

I'm afraid that the intense participation will force puzzles belonging to people posting more than 15 puzzles to be replaced by puzzles by other members. When yopu post a new puzzle. it will be added to the list, however if you exceed 15 then other members posting puzzles will replace you lower ranking puzzles if you have more than 15
Puzzle#034 (vidarino)
Puzzle#041 (vidarino)
Puzzle#006 (vidarino)
Puzzle#030 (vidarino)
Puzzle#056 (vidarino)
Puzzle#052 (vidarino)
Puzzle#042 (vidarino)
Puzzle#020 (vidarino)
Puzzle#047 (vidarino)
Puzzle#046 (vidarino)
Puzzle#045 (vidarino)
will be replaced
Ruud wrote:2 x-wings in separate steps, 2 naked pairs, 3 hidden pairs. Should make the grade...

I'm afraid it doesn't, the hidden triple is not required, the xwings occur all in one step, the score of your puzzle is 5, because of the space created now it can go to replace other puzzles, but because you now have 15, it will replace your lower ranking puzzle now #72
Red Ed wrote:
tarek wrote:So the bar should rise again to ............ 7
Aaahh, so no room for a minimal quarter turn rotationally-symmetric sum-to-10 that has a hidden triple and a nice little bit of Fibonacci at the top left. Oh well, in that case please replace my puzzle #068 with the following

You must be joking,.... your puzzled scored a 9, it is above the bar, but because the space created it will replace vidarino's #045
ab wrote:not sure if this meets your new specs. needs a naked triple and a hidden pair. the naked triple is paired with a hidden triple.

it scores a 4, it will replace vidarino's #46

Ocean, Nice set of puzzles, Your Highest ranking 3 puzzles submitted 09,05,06 will compleete your 15 puzzles therefore puzzle your 4th puzzle will replace your lowest ranking puzzle #082....

For everyone passing the 15 mark the bar for adding any puzzle would be 9, it will be added to the list, but then the lowes ranking puzzle will be replaced by another member's puzzle who has not posted.
There fore Ocean's puzzles 03,07 will replace vidarino's #047, #020, your puzzles 01,02,08,10 will not join the list.......Your lowes scoring 3 will be replaced as we progress.

The replacements & additions will make the list stand at 93 puzzles at the moment, as we have now 9 puzzles to replace, we probably have still 16 puzzles to add, replacements at the moment should score 4 or above

In short, Vidar, Ruud & Ocean, your puzzles need to score 9 or above to be on the list, the rest for now have a target of 4 to replace the extra, here is the formmula for scoring puzzles.
Code: Select all
Hidden Triple*6+XWing*3+Naked triple*2+Hidden double*2+Naked double

similar techniques used in the same step will count as 1 technique

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Fair settlement

Postby fermat » Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:43 pm

The limit of 100 is arbitrary, as the the limit per person.

How about letting the total exceed 100 but keeping the individual limit?

My interest is that I like the quality puzzles, the more the better!
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Postby tarek » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:48 pm

I know I started this thread, but it has been rich with its participants, if the members think we should go over 100 so be it, any opinions:D

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Postby Ruud » Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:33 am

Tarek wrote:any opinions

It would be nice for this thread to stabilize at some point. A stabilized thread would be a nice starting point for some string-pulling activities by a certain person.:D Removing the 100 limit would postpone this moment.

We can always start a new batch in another thread (maybe for book 2:) ) This also opens up some new opportunities for those poor fellows who have so enthousiastically contributed to this list that they have now reached their individual limit.:(

Ruud.
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Postby ab » Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:41 pm

Ruud wrote:
Tarek wrote:any opinions

It would be nice for this thread to stabilize at some point. A stabilized thread would be a nice starting point for some string-pulling activities by a certain person.:D Removing the 100 limit would postpone this moment.

We can always start a new batch in another thread (maybe for book 2:) ) This also opens up some new opportunities for those poor fellows who have so enthousiastically contributed to this list that they have now reached their individual limit.:(

Ruud.


I agree with Ruud.

As an aside, it's interesting that Fermat has waited until the 12 page of this thread, and the threat of it finishing, to comment. I wonder how many other 'lurkers' are avidly following it!
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re: book 2

Postby Pat » Sun Apr 02, 2006 4:20 pm

Ruud wrote:We can always start a new batch in another thread (maybe for book 2)

and then please also allow use of Quad


thanks!
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