The comeback of brainteasers

Anything goes, but keep it seemly...

Postby udosuk » Tue May 13, 2008 4:06 am

Bigtone53 wrote:Thanks, udosuk. I hope that the answer is not a lemon:)

It's not "lemon", "apple", "grape" or any other "fruit".:D

Bigtone53 wrote:Even though the 'riddle' has multiple solutions, it is possible to progress a bit. Will this help or hinder:?:

It will help or hinder depending which solution (fake/real) you're looking for...:)

Bigtone53 wrote:No fives on the grid:?:

A very useful observation to lead you to the "real solution".:idea:



Triple click to see the first hint I wrote:There is a missing given/clue in the grid. It helps you to find one of the solutions.
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Postby Bigtone53 » Tue May 13, 2008 11:16 am

Bigtone53 wrote:
No fives on the grid

A very useful observation to lead you to the "real solution".


Putting a 5 in any of these cells leads to a unique solution

r1c7
r2c2
r3c4
r4c3
r5c8
r6c6
r7c9
r8c5
r9c1

This gives a 1 <-> 1 mapping of the numbers 1 - 9 which was been a sort-of theme in both udosuk's and Glyn's puzzles. And if you wrote them column first (c1r9, c2r2 etc), you would get a different mapping.

To get the real answer, I need to know which is the correct place to put the 5. The 5-letter word will help me do this.

First, third ...
three, seven, eight (row, column)
right
Hmmm:(
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Postby Glyn » Tue May 13, 2008 12:12 pm

Bigtone53 wrote
Putting a 5 in any of these cells leads to a unique solution

r1c7
r2c2
r3c4
r4c3
r5c8
r6c6
r7c9
r8c5
r9c1


Nearest I can get doing that is two solutions with 5 seeding r1c7 or r2c2 leaving {26} unsolved in r56c29. The other 5's are part of that solution, but don't lead to it directly.

.BTW I've found 14 patterns of 5's that coexist. Only one leads to a solution applying uniqueness. Unfortunately it is the one I've already had rejected by Matt as both the 'right' and 'false' solution and which I reached by a completely different route.

FYI Here it is:-
Code: Select all
.------.------.------.
| 5 9 4| 8 6 2| 1 3 7|
| 1 8 2| 3 4 7| 5 6 9|
| 6 7 3| 5 9 1| 2 4 8|
:------+------+------:
| 3 5 1| 2 7 6| 8 9 4|
| 4 6 7| 1 8 9| 3 2 5|
| 8 2 9| 4 3 5| 7 1 6|
:------+------+------:
| 2 4 5| 9 1 8| 6 7 3|
| 9 1 6| 7 5 3| 4 8 2|
| 7 3 8| 6 2 4| 9 5 1|
'------'------'------'
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Postby Bigtone53 » Tue May 13, 2008 1:46 pm

Well, obviously if I have mistranscribed the original grid (which I seem to have done) I will get a wrong answer, as I have . My bad!:(

I will sit back and let the experts work on this. My types of brainteaser tend to be a bit different so I am having problems adjusting in the time available.

Are you and udosuk in cahoots on this chain? I don't mind showing my stupidity in public but assumed that we were all doing this.
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Postby Glyn » Tue May 13, 2008 2:14 pm

Mea Culpa.:( I had waved my solution in front of Matt speculatively rather than put a load of wrong deductions in the thread. I haven't got a clue what the right thing to do on this one is. Apparently I was barking in the wrong forest, not just up the wrong tree.

I reached it blindly by forking on the 8's and got them all lined up on the NW-SE diagonal on the centre dots.There's one less 8 than the other digits, apart from the 5's that you'd spotted. Oh and Eight has 5 letters. That solution is the one above.

The method I used has nothing to do with a word, so I'm completely in the dark now.

My next daft idea will be posted here. The 8's might have some to do with the wrong solution though.
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Postby Bigtone53 » Tue May 13, 2008 2:26 pm

Thanks Glyn,

In the halcyon days of brainteasers on this site, it was almost stream of consciousness stuff, with people putting up their wild conjectures and others feeding off them, with the wildest conjectures being advised as wrong just to keep the discussion in the right general direction. This is where I learned not to be afraid of being a complete idiot in public, which is just as well:D
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Postby Glyn » Tue May 13, 2008 2:39 pm

Another wild idea.

I wonder how many 5 letter words can be made from the first 9 letters in the alphabet A-H. Mind you even if I found them I wouldn't know what to do next. I'll see if any are encoded in the umpteen grids I've got stuck with.
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Postby Bigtone53 » Tue May 13, 2008 3:01 pm

I wonder how many 5 letter words can be made from the first 9 letters in the alphabet A-H


Not that many (I assume that you mean A-I)

abide
ached
badge
beach
cadge
caged
cebid
ceiba
chafe
chide
chief
decaf
faced
fadge
fiche
fidge
gibed

I like CHIEF as a gut feeling, although perhaps CAGE D is more relevant to the sudoku world. Had I been right with my 5 analysis (and I dont have time to check now), this would suggest the 5 goes in r4c3.

I also like BIGHEAD, given my name.
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Postby udosuk » Tue May 13, 2008 4:00 pm

First of all I should also apologize for doing this PM thing. To be fair in the future PM is not allowed, all discussions must be made in public. The riddler have the obligation to publicly post any questions asked via PM, and answer them in the thread.

And sorry guys, it seems none of you have been going in the correct direction, so I need to straighthen you up a bit...:idea:

So in reverse chronological order:

Glyn wrote:I wonder how many 5 letter words can be made from the first 9 letters in the alphabet A-H (or A-I).

That's totally irrelevant. Don't waste your time!:!:

Glyn wrote:The 8's might have some to do with the wrong solution though.

That's correct. The 8's are to do with the "fake solution". The 5's are to do with the "real solution".

Glyn wrote:I reached it blindly by forking on the 8's and got them all lined up on the NW-SE diagonal on the centre dots. There's one less 8 than the other digits, apart from the 5's that you'd spotted. Oh and Eight has 5 letters. That solution is the one above.

If you want to find the fake solution this approach is not too far off. But I didn't say that the fake solution is associated with a 5-letter word... If it is I suppose "EIGHT" can be an option, or "CRAZY".:D

Glyn wrote:BTW I've found 14 patterns of 5's that coexist. Only one leads to a solution applying uniqueness.

Assuming "real solution" is the target: believe me, all your 14 patterns are wrong.

Bigtone53 wrote:Putting a 5 in any of these cells leads to a unique solution

Assuming "fake solution" is the target: right approach, wrong digit.

So finally, more hints (one each for real/fake solution):

Triple click to read the hint for 'real solution' I wrote:Divide and conquer.


Triple click to read the hint for 'fake solution' I wrote:Count carefully, in detail.
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Postby Bigtone53 » Tue May 13, 2008 6:56 pm

I bow out of this chain.
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Postby Glyn » Tue May 13, 2008 7:37 pm

udosuk wrote:
Glyn wrote:BTW I've found 14 patterns of 5's that coexist. Only one leads to a solution applying uniqueness.

Assuming "real solution" is the target: believe me, all your 14 patterns are wrong.


I assume one of the patterns must be right as between them all of grid solutions are there. My interpretation is that in reaching this stage I've obliterated the point at which the 'word' clue would help.

Stumped again.
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Postby udosuk » Wed May 14, 2008 2:36 am

More hints:

Triple click to read the hint for the 'real solution' I wrote:1. What you see is NOT what you get. (Looks can be deceiving.)

2. Why are the positions of the 5s not given in the grid?


Triple click to read the hint for the fake solution' I wrote:1. What you see is what you get.

2. Count the given clues with careful observation.

:idea:
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Postby coloin » Wed May 14, 2008 10:51 am

Is it ricis ?
C
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Postby udosuk » Wed May 14, 2008 11:41 am

coloin wrote:Is it ricis ?

No. Never heard of the term before.:?:

I think for the "real solution", I should add one more line to the original puzzle:

This is the "riddle":
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|..4|8..|.3.|
|1..|..7|...|
|6..|.9.|2..|
+---+---+---+
|...|2.6|.94|
|..7|...|...|
|8..|.3.|.1.|
+---+---+---+
|2..|.1.|67.|
|9..|...|...|
|.3.|..4|...|
+---+---+---+

The answer to this riddle is a five-letter word. If you know this word you can fill out the rest of the grid.:idea:

This grid as a "puzzle" have one unique solution as it is. If you figure out what that solution is then you can find the five-letter word as the answer.:idea:

So this is a "Catch-22" situation. Knowing the "keyword" you can fill out the grid. Knowing how to fill out the grid you can find the "keyword".

BTW "CATCH" is not the keyword.:)
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Postby Glyn » Wed May 14, 2008 12:46 pm

If the puzzle is unique as it is, ie no more givens are required, does the 5 letter word describe an extra constraint?
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