The New Sudoku Players' Forum

by **champagne** » Tue Apr 01, 2025 8:20 am

This seems to me closer to what did blue.

If my remark is correct, there must be a morphing process leading from a min lex solution grid to the "magic corner" of the loki family.
This would help to see if a new high belongs to the family, but up to now, I don't have it.

The "vicinity" applied to the new high has good chances to find a bridge to the family if it is one member,
but it also should deliver many new highs

by **champagne** » Tue Apr 01, 2025 1:05 pm

Some doubts going back reading this post of Blue

http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/tridagon-t45572-30.html
"champagne"
Asssuming that a tridagon pattern in the solution is the following

Code: Select all
..x x..
.x. .x.
x.. ..x

x.. x--
.x. -x-
..x --.

where the last digit on the pattern in the last box is anywhere but not in the last cell
"blue"
Nothing to add to this,
this is by far the most common final status in mith's file

I counted these too:

Code: Select all
..x x..
.x. .x.
x.. ..x

x.. x--
.x. -.-
..x --x

mith's list has 2,113,220 puzzles of the first type, over 28026 "starts", and 1,629,623 puzzles of the 2nd type, over 19937 "starts".
FWIW: By big list, has 2,146,660,838 "starts" of the first type (on 1,508,823,488 solution grids), and 821,671,928 of the 2nd type (on 744,278,570 solution grids).
The grid that I listed 24 puzzles/"starts" for, has 17 of first type, and 7 of the 2nd.

==================================================================

I have doubts that the "vicinity" search can switch from the first to the second pattern. One possibility is that mith's file is already done of several seeds

by **coloin** » Tue Apr 01, 2025 8:47 pm

Yes those x refer to the diagonal 123 clues ...which are not in the puzzle ...apart from in Box9

champagne wrote:there must be a morphing process leading from a min lex solution grid to the "magic corner" of the loki family.

However the 456789 clues in the "magic corner" [B1B2B4] can be standardised thanks to gsf ....

Code: Select all: +---+---+---+ |49.|.65|7..| |7.5|9.8|...| |.86|74.|5..| +---+---+---+ |.54|..6|...| |8.9|4.7|.6.| |67.|...|...| +---+---+---+ |...|8..|...| |...|..9|.21| |...|...|.5.| +---+---+---+ Morph of Loki expand 49..657..7.59.8....8674.5...54..6...8.94.7.6.67..........8..........9.21.......5. # 49..65...7.59.8....8674.....54......8.9......67.......................xx........x

Maybe this ?
Here are some expands from miths list [all TE3] with same B1B2B4 [456789] clues [ all different solution grids] the 123 clues are in box 9 and are undefined/variable
Could be called family ! The rest of the clues dont seem to be very close it does have to be said, but there is more row swapping that could be done in band3 and stack3..

Code: Select all: ....65...7.59.84...8674.9...54.9...88.9......67.58....5............5..21...6795.3 # 492165387715938462386742915254396178839217654671584239543821796967453821128679543 ....65.877.59.8......74..95.54..78..8.9..67..67..8.......85467.5......21......5.8 # 491365287735928416286741395154237869829516734673489152912854673548673921367192548 ....65.877.59.8.6....74.....54.87...8.9...7..67..9.8........5.85......21....5497. # 493265187715938462286741395354687219829413756671592834937126548548379621162854973 .9..65......9.8....8.74.9...54.9..878.94.7.5.67.....49....7459..67...421.4......3 # 493265718715938264286741935154692387839417652672853149328174596567389421941526873 .9..65......9.8....8.74.9...54.97.8.8.94...5767.....49....7459..67...421.4......3 # 493265718715938264286741935154697382839412657672853149328174596567389421941526873 .9..65.....59.86...8674.5...54.79.688.9..6.7567.............75......7.21547...9.6 # 492165387715938642386742519254379168839216475671584293128693754963457821547821936 .9..65.....59.86...8674.9...54..9.8.8.94.....67.....49947...56.....9.42......4.93 # 491365278735928614286741935154639782829417356673852149947283561318596427562174893 .9..65..8..5.......8674..9..54.978..8.96.4...67..8.......4..78.5......21......6.3 # 492365178715928364386741592254197836839654217671283459963412785547836921128579643 .9..658.....9.8....8.74.....54....688.9..6.7467.48..9....6.478.54....621.6......3 # 492365817715928436386741259254197368839256174671483592923614785547839621168572943 .9..658....59.8....8674.5...54.9..868.9.....567.58..........45.....5..21547...9.8 # 493165872715928364286743519354291786829376145671584293162839457938457621547612938 .9..658....59.8....8674.5...54.96.7.8.94.7....7...........7.9....7....21.4....7.3 # 493265817715938246286741539354896172829417365671352498562173984937584621148629753 4...65...7.59.84....674.5...54......8.96.4.5767.5...49......9.4...4...21948...6.5 # 491265378725938416386741592154897263839624157672513849217356984563489721948172635 4...65...7.59.84....674.5...54.79...8.9....7.67.....4.948...6.........21......8.4 # 492365187735918462186742539354679218829451376671283945948127653563894721217536894 4...65...7.59.86....674.....54.9..688.96.4.5.67.......9.8...47......9.26......9.3 # 491265837725938614386741295254193768819674352673852149938526471147389526562417983 4...65.7.7.59.8.64..6.......54..76..8.96.4...67.58.4..968...54....8.6.21......8.6 # 492165378715938264386742915254317689839624157671589432968271543543896721127453896 49..65...7.5...4...8674.9...54.9..8.8.9......67.58..49547...69........21......7.4 # 491365278725918436386742915154296387839174562672583149547821693963457821218639754 49..65...7.59.8....8674.....54.96.788.9..7.6567........48.............21.....9..3 # 493165287725938614186742359254396178839217465671854932348521796967483521512679843 49..65...7.59.8....8674.....54.96.878.9..7..567........47..........7..21.....9..3 # 493165278725938614186742359254396187839217465671854932347521896968473521512689743 49..65...7.59.8....8674.....54.97.688.9..6.7567........48.............21.....9..3 # 493165287725938614186742359254397168839216475671854932348521796967483521512679843 49..65...7.59.86...8674.5...54..7..68.94.6...67.......9...........6.9.21...8..9.3 # 493165287725938614186742539354287196819456372672391845941523768538679421267814953 49..65..87.5.......8674..9..54.9.8..8.94.....67.58.....67...48....6...21......6.3 # 492165738735928164186743592254396817819472356673581249367219485548637921921854673 49..65..87.59.8......74..59.54.9....8.94..5..67..........67.485.......215.....6.3 # 492365718735918246186742359254896137819437562673251894921673485367584921548129673 49..65.7....9.8....8674..59.54.879..8.9..6...67..9.....6..........85.621...67.5.3 # 491365872735928164286741359154287936829536417673194285562413798347859621918672543 49..65.787.5.......8674.....54.8.9..8.9......67.59....56....4.....65..21....7.653 # 492365178735918264186742539354287916829136745671594382563821497947653821218479653 49..65.787.5.......8674..9..54.9.8..8.94.....67.58.....67....8....6..721......6.3 # 493265178725918364186743592254396817839471256671582439367124985548639721912857643 49..65.787.5....46.8674.....54.8.9..8.9......67..9....56....4.....65..21....7...3 # 492365178735918246186742539354187962829536714671294385563821497947653821218479653 49..65.787.59.8......74..59.54.9....8.94..5..67..........67.485..7....215.....7.3 # 491365278735928146286741359154897632829436517673152894912673485367584921548219763 49..65.8.7.5.......8674...9.54.9.8..8.94.....67.58....567...4.8...65..21......6.. # 491265783735918246286743519154396872829471365673582194567129438348657921912834657 49..65.8.7.5.......8674..59.54.879..8.9..6...67..9....54....69.....7.521....5...3 # 491365782735928164286741359154287936829136475673594218542813697368479521917652843 49..65.8.7.5....46.8674.....54.86...8.9..76..67..9....54....96......4.21......4.3 # 491365782735928146286741395354186279819257634672493518543812967967534821128679453 49..65.8.7.5....46.8674.....54.86...8.9..76..67..9....54....96.....7..21........3 # 493165782715928346286743195154386279839257614672491538541832967368579421927614853 49..65.8.7.5....46.8674.....54.876..8.9..6...67..9....54....96......4.21......4.3 # 491365782725918346386742195154287639839156274672493518543821967967534821218679453 49..657..7.59.84...8674.9...54.9.............67.85....567....4....57.6.1....8.573 # 491365782735928416286741935154293867829617354673854129567139248348572691912486573 49..658..7.59.8....8674.....54.8..9......6...67..9...8.67...48....6...21...85.763 # 493165872715928346286743159154382697839576214672491538367219485548637921921854763 49..658..7.59.8....8674.....54.9..8......6...67..8...9.67...4.8...6...21...85.763 # 493165872715928346286743195154392687839576214672481539367219458548637921921854763 49..658..7.59.8....8674.9...54.8...9...4.....67..9..8454....69......4.2.....79..3 # 491365872725918346386742915154286739839457261672193584543821697967534128218679453 49..658..7.59.8....8674.9...54.9..68.....6...67..8..9..67...48........2.....5...3 # 491265837735918246286743951154392768829576314673481592367129485548637129912854673 49..658..7.59.8....8674.9...54.9..8......6...67..8...9.67...4.8....5.72.........3 # 491365872725918364386742915154293687839576241672481539267139458913854726548627193 49..658..7.59.86.....74.9...54....6.8.9......67......9...85.7.65......2..4....5.3 # 492365871715928634386741952154289367829637415673514289931852746567493128248176593

by **champagne** » Wed Apr 02, 2025 7:24 am

In line with your post, but using my boxes 5689 magic square, we must end in one of these 2 patterns.

Code: Select all: ..x x.. ..x x.. .x. .x. .x. .x. x.. ..x x.. ..x x.. x-- x.. x-- .x. -x- .x. -.- ..x --. ..x --x type 1 type 2

Only one of the valid six permutations in the four boxes can give the “type 1 pattern”
But the “type 2” can come from 2 permutations, another criteria must select the canonical one.

Relabelling can be applied to the solution grid to reach

Code: Select all: 451 267 .x. .x. x.. ..x

can be followed by

Code: Select all: 451 267 .2. .3. 3.. ..1

or

Code: Select all: 451 267 .3. .1. 2.. ..3

This does not lead to a huge number of magic squares. I think that “blue” did the enumeration in a similar way.

I am not clear on what gives the “vicinity” applied to build mith’s file, but I am now convinced that I was heavily wrong thinking that all was derived from the “loki” seed.

I’ll try to see with “mith” what he did

by **blue** » Wed Apr 02, 2025 8:23 am

champagne wrote:Some doubts going back reading this post of Blue

http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/tridagon-t45572-30.html

(...)

I have doubts that the "vicinity" search can switch from the first to the second pattern. One possibility is that mith's file is already done of several seeds

It doesn't happen very often with {-1,+1}, even given that the solution grid is changing ... but it does happen:

Code: Select all: tridagon digits: 1,2,3 magic square: B1245 type 1 +-------+-------+-------+ +-------+-------+-------+ | . . . | . 4 5 | . 6 . | | 8 7 1 | 3 4 5 | 9 6 2 | | 5 . 9 | 6 . 7 | . 8 . | | 5 2 9 | 6 1 7 | 3 8 4 | | . . . | 8 9 . | . . . | | 3 6 4 | 8 9 2 | 7 1 5 | +-------+-------+-------+ +-------+-------+-------+ | . . 7 | . . . | . . . | | 2 5 7 | 1 6 3 | 4 9 8 | | 4 . 8 | 5 . 9 | . . . | | 4 1 8 | 5 2 9 | 6 3 7 | | 6 . . | 4 7 . | . . . | | 6 9 3 | 4 7 8 | 5 2 1 | +-------+-------+-------+ +-------+-------+-------+ | 9 8 5 | . . . | 2 4 . | | 9 8 5 | 7 3 1 | 2 4 6 | | . . . | . . . | . . . | | 1 3 6 | 2 5 4 | 8 7 9 | | 7 4 . | . . . | 1 . 3 | | 7 4 2 | 9 8 6 | 1 5 3 | +-------+-------+-------+ +-------+-------+-------+ {-2r7c7,+8r6c7} --> type 2 +-------+-------+-------+ +-------+-------+-------+ | . . . | . 4 5 | . 6 . | | 8 7 1 | 2 4 5 | 3 6 9 | | 5 . 9 | 6 . 7 | . 8 . | | 5 2 9 | 6 3 7 | 4 8 1 | | . . . | 8 9 . | . . . | | 3 6 4 | 8 9 1 | 5 7 2 | +-------+-------+-------+ +-------+-------+-------+ | . . 7 | . . . | . . . | | 2 5 7 | 3 1 8 | 6 9 4 | | 4 . 8 | 5 . 9 | . . . | | 4 1 8 | 5 6 9 | 2 3 7 | | 6 . . | 4 7 . | 8 . . | | 6 9 3 | 4 7 2 | 8 1 5 | +-------+-------+-------+ +-------+-------+-------+ | 9 8 5 | . . . | . 4 . | | 9 8 5 | 1 2 3 | 7 4 6 | | . . . | . . . | . . . | | 1 3 6 | 7 5 4 | 9 2 8 | | 7 4 . | . . . | 1 . 3 | | 7 4 2 | 9 8 6 | 1 5 3 | +-------+-------+-------+ +-------+-------+-------+ ....45.6.5.96.7.8....89......7......4.85.9...6..47....985...24..........74....1.3 871345962529617384364892715257163498418529637693478521985731246136254879742986153 ....45.6.5.96.7.8....89......7......4.85.9...6..47.8..985....4..........74....1.3 871245369529637481364891572257318694418569237693472815985123746136754928742986153

Here's one where the "odd box" in the magic square changes from box 5 to box 2:

Code: Select all: tridagon digits: 1,2,3 magic square: B1245 type 2 +-------+-------+-------+ +-------+-------+-------+ | 4 5 . | . . . | . . . | | 4 5 1 | 3 7 8 | 2 6 9 | | 6 . 7 | 9 . 5 | . . . | | 6 2 7 | 9 1 5 | 8 4 3 | | . 8 9 | . . . | . . . | | 3 8 9 | 4 6 2 | 7 5 1 | +-------+-------+-------+ +-------+-------+-------+ | . 6 4 | . 8 7 | . . 5 | | 1 6 4 | 2 8 7 | 9 3 5 | | . . . | 6 . . | 4 . . | | 5 3 8 | 6 9 1 | 4 2 7 | | 9 7 . | 5 . . | . . . | | 9 7 2 | 5 4 3 | 6 1 8 | +-------+-------+-------+ +-------+-------+-------+ | . . . | 8 . 6 | 1 7 4 | | 2 9 5 | 8 3 6 | 1 7 4 | | . . . | . . 4 | 3 . 2 | | 8 1 6 | 7 5 4 | 3 9 2 | | 7 . . | . . . | . 8 . | | 7 4 3 | 1 2 9 | 5 8 6 | +-------+-------+-------+ +-------+-------+-------+ {-7r7c8,+9r5c6} --> type 1 +-------+-------+-------+ +-------+-------+-------+ | 4 5 . | . . . | . . . | | 4 5 3 | 7 2 8 | 6 1 9 | | 6 . 7 | 9 . 5 | . . . | | 6 1 7 | 9 3 5 | 2 4 8 | | . 8 9 | . . . | . . . | | 2 8 9 | 4 6 1 | 7 5 3 | +-------+-------+-------+ +-------+-------+-------+ | . 6 4 | . 8 7 | . . 5 | | 1 6 4 | 2 8 7 | 9 3 5 | | . . . | 6 . 9 | 4 . . | | 5 3 8 | 6 1 9 | 4 2 7 | | 9 7 . | 5 . . | . . . | | 9 7 2 | 5 4 3 | 8 6 1 | +-------+-------+-------+ +-------+-------+-------+ | . . . | 8 . 6 | 1 . 4 | | 3 2 5 | 8 7 6 | 1 9 4 | | . . . | . . 4 | 3 . 2 | | 8 9 6 | 1 5 4 | 3 7 2 | | 7 . . | . . . | . 8 . | | 7 4 1 | 3 9 2 | 5 8 6 | +-------+-------+-------+ +-------+-------+-------+ 45.......6.79.5....89.......64.87..5...6..4..97.5........8.6174.....43.27......8. 451378269627915843389462751164287935538691427972543618295836174816754392743129586 45.......6.79.5....89.......64.87..5...6.94..97.5........8.61.4.....43.27......8. 453728619617935248289461753164287935538619427972543861325876194896154372741392586

I think mith did "twins" transformations too, for puzzles that have unavoidable sets in the clues -- not exacly a "vicintity" operation.

by **coloin** » Wed Apr 02, 2025 1:58 pm

blue wrote:I think mith did "twins" transformations too, for puzzles that have unavoidable sets in the clues -- not exacly a "vicintity" operation.

he certainly did a complete twin process... and yes I tended to use the new twin puzzles as new seeds.
Im just waiting to see how many of the 67K grids in miths file have the loki 3-corner pattern. [ 1032 known patterns]
My list was from ~ 10K grids .. so expecting 250 of them when its finished ...
but the puzzles dont seem to be too connected... so probably just an exercise...

by **champagne** » Wed Apr 02, 2025 2:27 pm

Hi blue,

good examples giving more credibility to the possibility to have mith's file derived from a unique seed.
All your solution grids are in mith's file and seen the skfr rating, likely all of them in the file.

So far, with a new solution grid, I see no easy way to tell if a bridge to mith' file exists.

by **coloin** » Wed Apr 02, 2025 5:23 pm

348 of the 67K solution grids in miths file had the loki 3-corner pattern, which is more x 5 more than random expectation.
Maybe they are connected somewhat - and we surmize that mith predominantly did a {-1+1} , expanding and minimizing .....

Hidden Text: Show

Code: Select all: 49..657..7.59.8....8674.5...54..6...8.94.7.6.67..........8..........9.21.......5. loki 49..65...7.59.8....8674.....54......8.9......67.......................21........3 ...........59.8..6..674..5..54..76..8.96.4...67.59.8......7946.9.8...721..7.....3 492365187715928346386741952254837619839614275671592834523179468968453721147286593 ....65.....59.8.....674...5.54.798..8.94..5..67...........9475.96....4.154.....93 491265378725938614386741925154679832839412567672853149218394756963527481547186293 ....65...7.59.8.64.86.4..95.548.6.....947.....7...94..5.8...74.....8..21...6....3 491265837725938164386741295254816379819473652673529418538192746967384521142657983 ....65...7.59.8.64.8674..95.54..76..8.94.6...67..........8.97.........2........53 492365871735918264186742395354197682829456137671283549543829716967531428218674953 ....65...7.59.84...8674.9...54.....88.94.....67.85...45.......9...5.4.21...67.5.3 492365187735918462186742935254136798819427356673859214541283679367594821928671543 ....65...7.59.84...8674.9...54.9...88.9......67.58....5............5..21...6795.3 492165387715938462386742915254396178839217654671584239543821796967453821128679543 ....65.787..9.8..4.8.74.....54.978..8.96..7..67.58.........69.7.6.....215.....6.3 493165278725938164186742539254397816839621745671584392348216957967853421512479683 ....65.787.59.8....8674..59.54...8..8.9..67..67..8.......8546.7..8...52.5.7....83 491265378725938461386741259254173896819426735673589142932854617168397524547612983 ....65.787.59.8....8674..59.54..9...8.9..6...67........68...4.....85.62....6...83 493165278725938146186742359354289761819476532672513894268397415931854627547621983 ....65.787.59.8....8674..59.54.9.8..8.94..5..67...........794.5..7....21.6....7.3 492365178735918642186742359254693817819427536673581294328179465547836921961254783 ....65.787.59.8..4.8674.....54......8.9..6...67.5.......8...9.7......821...8.95.6 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by **champagne** » Thu Apr 03, 2025 6:20 am

the chunk 2 000 001 - 3 000 000 is now closed and 15 607 skfr ratings >=10.5 have been found and sent to coloin.
Next chunk 3 000 001- 4 000 000 is half processed with these best skfr ratings

Code: Select all: 2.........6.3.....9.....5....687..31...5.68.7....1365.67..31.85..87.51.6...68..7.;11.3/11.3/2.6 .9....6..24....8.....78.......31..65..36.57.8..5.7813.....53.81...1.75.6...86..7.;11.6/11.6/2.6 9.....6..24....8.....78.......31..65..36.57.8..5.7813.....53.81...8.7..6...16.57.;11.6/11.6/7.6

I'll try for the next one other cut off parameters
27 clues as primary search
34 clues as limit for the expansion

a much longer run time expected.

up to now we stay with an average of ~2 starts per solution grids, against an expected 0.5 for the full scan. At the end of the current chunk, I'll have processed ~ 6 M starts out of 2.8 billions

by **eleven** » Thu Apr 03, 2025 12:57 pm

Semiannual note V:
I'll never understand, why so much cpu is burned to evaluate millions of tridagon puzzle ER ratings - instead of expanding the Sudoku Explainer or Sukaku solver with that pattern and e.g. rate placing a single tridagon extra candidate 7.0.

by **coloin** » Thu Apr 03, 2025 1:11 pm

I concur !

Code: Select all: ........94.7............1.52.684....78.3.2....34...8.234..28.6..726.4...6.873.... # 99379 FNBP C30/M2.9.2916 ED=11.7 ........94.7............1.52.6847...78.3.2....34...8.234..28.6..726.4...6.873.... # 30686 FNBP C31/M2.115.57 ED= 9.5

by **champagne** » Thu Apr 03, 2025 1:24 pm

eleven wrote:Semiannual note V:
I'll never understand, why so much cpu is burned to evaluate millions of tridagon puzzle ER ratings - instead of expanding the Sudoku Explainer or Sukaku solver with that pattern and e.g. rate placing a single tridagon extra candidate 7.0.

can you tell more??

blue did an exhaustive enumeration of solution grids having non degenerative tridagon possible puzzles, but as he wrote, this does not help much to find in these 2.8 billions solution grids the puzzles difficult to solve.

New ideas saving cpu cycles are welcome.

by **coloin** » Thu Apr 03, 2025 6:59 pm

15607 puzzles -> 15593 different expands
185 BxB5
no BxB6
1 TE3

Hidden Text: Show

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.234.6...4.678..2.78..23.6.2.436...8.68.74..2.7.....46.....7..........5.8...4..9.# 5 12.4.6..94.6.89.2..8912..6..1....3....8.....6......5...61.94...8.261....94...86..# 5 1.3...78..567..1.378.....65.....5...5.7......6.824....36.....188.5...3.7.71.3.6..# 5 1.345....45..891...891.34...1.....9.......6.......12...418.5...83..1...49.5.348..# 5 1.345..8.45..89....891.34...1.....9.......6.......12...418.5...83..1...49.5.34...# 5 1.345..8.45..89....891.34...1.....9...8...6........2...418.5...83..1...49.5.34...# 5 .2.4.6..9.......237........21....59..379..2.19.5.1..3739.....7.5.2..791..71...3..# 5 .234.6.8.4.678..2.78..23...2.43....663..72....7864...2...2.........3.........7.91# 5 12.4.6...4.6.89.2..8912.....1......7.......1...8...5...4269....86...29..9.18.46.2# 5 1.3...78..56...1.378.....65....9...63............42.315.1.673..63.....57.78...61.# 5 12....7.9.567..12.7.9....6521...795.6.5....71.97...6....12.............69...345..# 5 1.3...78..56...1.378...3.65.1...5....6.29...1......6..63..7..1.8.5....76.71...3.8# 5 1.3.56....5678....78.1.3............3.5....1....5..2.453..176.86.8..5.7..7186....# 5 1.345....45..89....891.34.5.143.59..39.81....5.8.9..1.....3......5.....79.......6# 5 ......789....8.....8.1.3.6.2.4..79.8.98.4.67.67......4.67...84.8.2..4.9.94....2..# 5 ......7894.6.8...3..........1.3.89.7...51.83.8...97.1....8.159....97.3.8....35.71# 5 1.34...8945....1.3.89..34...14...59.3.5...8.189.5...345...............48..86.7...# 5 1.34...8945....1.3.89..34...14...59.3.59..8.189.....345...............48..86.7...# 5 .234.6...4.678..2.78..23...2.436...8.68.74..2.7.....46.....7...64.....9....6...5.# 5 1.345....45..89....891.34.5.143.59..39.81....8.5.9..1.53...............7.....8..2# 5 12..567.9..67.912....12..65...5.769....61.2.7.....2.51......97.8.......2.4..7....# 5 1.3..678..567..1.378.....65.1....8.76.8...51..758...36.....2.......3.......9..351# 5 1.345....45..89....891.34.5.143.59..8.5.9..1.93.81.........8..25...3............7# 5 1.345....45..89....891.34.5.143.59..5.8.9..1.93.81.........8..2........78...3....# 5 1.345..8945........891.3..5.1......6.9......7...5.1...54.83.....319.45..9...153..# 5 1.345....45..89....891.34.5.143.59..39.81....8.5.9..1....9....6.....8..7....3....# 5 1.345....45..89....891.34.5.143.59..39.81....8.5.9..1....9....6.....8..7.3.......# 5 1.345....45..89....891.34.5.143.59..5.8.9..1.93.81....3.......6....3......5.....7# 5 1.345....45..89....891.34.5.143.59..39.81....5.8.9..1.........78...3.........8..2# 5 1.345....45..89....891.34.5.143.59..39.81....5.8.9..1.........783............8..2# 5 1.345....45..89....891.34.5.143.59..39.81....8.5.9..1......8..7....3....9.......6# 5 1.345....45..89....891.34.5.143.59..39.81....5.8.9..1......8..7...9....6....3....# 5 1.345....45..89....891.34.5.143.59..39.81....5.8.9..1......8..7...9....6.3.......# 5 12...67.9.56..912.7.91...65....38.7.......2....72......7....69..61...5.29.5....17# 5 12...67.9.56...12.7.91...652...3897....9..2..697.............12..1...59...2...6.7# 5 12...67.9.56..912.7.9....6521....69.6.7.......9561.2.7....4..7.5.1.6.......3.....# 5 1.345....45..89....891.3......3.8.5.5.........3....2.739.8.4....41.3.8..8.591..3.# 5 1.3.5..8....789................9785....2.59.4..584..72...97..48...5.829.8....45.7# 5 12.4.6..94.6.89.2..8912..6..1....3....8.....2...8..5...61.94...8.261....94...8...# 5 12.4.6.8.4.6.89.2..8912.....1....39.....4...7.....1....4269....6...18..28.12.4...# 5 .2.4.6..9......123.........21..7.59.3.7....12.95..13.75.1...23..72...9..93...2.7.# 5 .2.4.6..9......123..9.2....21.3...7.......9.2.95.7.31.5.2....37.71...29.93....5.1# 5 .2.4.67.9......123.........21.3......35...2..9.7...3.137....9.25.29...17.91.7.53.# 5 .2.4.67.9......123.........21........35...2..9.7...3.137...19.25.29...17.91.7.53.# 5 12..56....567.9.2.7.912.........58....59......9......4.7256....56..91..79.1..76..# 5 .2345...945.7.9..37.9.23..52.439....37...2....95.74.....2...8...4.......9..2...1.# 5 .234.6...4.678...378..23.6.2.436...73..2.8....68.74........295.8............47...# 5 1.345....45..89....891.34...1453.8..3.89....159..18.4...5..........9.....3....2.7# 5 1.345....45..89....891.3....1453.8..3.89....159..18.4...5..........9.....3.8..2.7# 5 1.345....45..89....891.3....1453.8..3.89....159..18.4...5..........9.....31...2.7# 5 1.345....45..89....891.3....1453.8..3.89....159..18.4...5..........9....93....2.7# 5 12.4.6..94.6.8912..8912.....1.......6......3...8....51.4.86..1..619.2.4.8.2......# 5 .234.6.8.4.678..2.78..23...2.436....67........38.7...6...6.7.....2........724.9.1# 5 ......78...6.......8.1.3.6.2.4..79.8.98.4.67.67.8....4.67...89.84.9..2..9.2....4.# 5 ......78...6.......891.3.6.2.4..79.8.98.4.67.67.8....4.67...89.84....2..9.2....4.# 5 ......78...6.8.....891.3.6.2.4..79.8.98...67.67......4.67...24.8.2.4..9.94....8..# 5 ......78...6.8.....891.3.6.2.4..79.8.98...67.67......4.67...84.8.2.4..9.94....2..# 5 1.34.6.......891.3.89...46..14...9.66.89...3193..6.84.3.1..2..........1.8....7...# 5 1.3.5.78..56...1.378.....65.1....8.78.7...53..358...16.78..4.......3.67......2...# 5 1.345..8945........891.3..5.1......6.95.....7...5.1...54.83.....319.4...9...153..# 5 .234.6.8.4.678...378..23...2.43.....67........38.......4...7..6...6......6.24.9.1# 5 1.3...78..56.8.1.378.....65......5.75.8...61...75...38....1...66..2.48.1.71......# 5 12..56....567.9...7.912...5.1..6759.5.791...6...2.5....7.....5....5....2..5...83.# 5 12..56....567.9...7.912...5.1..6759.5.791...6...2.5....7.....52...5.......5...83.# 5 1.345...945..89....891.34......3....5.894.3.193.8.154......82.4..5............6..# 5 ...4.6..9....8..2.7.9......21.....575.8..129..97..28.1..2...97.87.....129.1...5.8# 5 .234.678.4.6....2.78..23...2.43.78.636..482....826..........5..84....9.........7.# 5 .234.6...4.678....78..23.6.2.43.76......48..2..826.3...4...259.8............7....# 5 .23....8.4.6.....378....4..2.43.....83.6.72...67.42......27.51.....6.....7...8...# 5 .234.6...4.678...378..23.6.2.43.76..36..48.....826......2.......4..3.59....8.....# 5 .......894...8.....8.1.3.6.2.4...9.7.98...64.67.9....8.67...89.8.2....7494....2.6# 5 .234.6...4.678...378..23.6.2.43.76..36..48.....826....6.2.......4..3.59..........# 5 12..56..9.567.9...7.912...5....6.......9.......7....345..67..1.6.2.91.5..712.5...# 5 12..56..9.567.9...7.912...5....6.......9.......7.1..345..67..1.6.2.91....712.5...# 5 12..56..9.567.9...7.912...52...6.......9............345..67..1.6.2.91.5..712.5...# 5 12..56..9.567.9...7.912...52...6.......9.......7....345..67..1.6.2.91....712.5...# 5 12..56..9.567.9...7.912...52...6.......9........2...345..67..1.6.2.91....715.2...# 5 12..56..9.567.9...7.912...52...6.......9........5...345..67..1.6.2.91....712.5...# 5 12..56..9.567.9...7.912...52...6.......9.........1..345..67..1.6.2.91....712.5...# 5 1.3.5..8.....89.........4......9785....2.59.4..584..72...97..48...5.829.8....45.7# 5 .234.6...4.678....78..23.6.2.43.76..36..48..2..826.3...4....59.8............7....# 5 .234.6...4.678...378..23.6.2.43.76..36..48.....826.....4..3.59............26.....# 5 .234.6...4.678...378..23.6.2.43.76..36..48.....826.....4..3.59.8..........2......# 5 .2345....45.7.9...7.9.23..5..4...6.83.............7...5.2.34.9..3.9.25..94.57.2..# 5 12.4.6..94.6.89.2..8912..6.21.....5.........8....4..3..4289....8.16.4...96...2...# 5 1.345....45..891...891.34...1.....9.......6..5.....2...418.5...83..1...49.5.348..# 5 1.345..8.45..89....891.34...1.....9.......6..5.....2...418.53..83..1...49.5.34...# 5 1.345..8.45..891...891.34...1.....9.......6..5.....2...418.5...83..1...49.5.34...# 5 1.345..8.45..89....891.34...1.....9.3.....6..5.....2...418.5...83..1...49.5.34...# 5 ...4.6..9....8..2.7.9......21..9.85.5.8.1.9.7.97....12..5..1.988.1...27.9.....5.1# 5 12..5.7.9.567..12.7.9....6521....5.66.5..1.7..97.6..12...9.........4....9.2.3....# 5 12..5.7.9.567..12.7.9....6521....5.66.5..1.7..97....12...9..2......4....9.2.3....# 5 12....7.9.567..12.7.91...6521...795.6.5....71.97...6....12.............6....34.1.# 5 12....7.9.56...12.7.9....6521...795.6.59...71.97.156...6....5....1.34............# 5 12..56..9.567.9...7.912...5....67...............5...345..67..1.6.2.91..7.712.5...# 5 1.345..8.45..89....891.34.........9.3.....6.......12...418.5...83..1...49.5.348..# 5 1.345....45..891...891.34...1.....9.3.....6........2...418.5...83..1...49.5.348..# 5 1.345..8.45..891...891.34...1.....9.3.....6........2...418.5...83..1...49.5.34...# 5 1.3.56.8..5678....78.1.3.6......56....7.....4.35...2..3.16.8...5...17....7853....# 5 1.3..678..56...1.378.....65.1...5...............29.6.136..7..1.5.8.3..76.71...3.8# 5 12..5.7.9.56...12.7.9....6521..7.5.66.5..1.7..97....12...9..2......4....9.2.3....# 5 ......789..6.89....891.3.6.2.4.....8.78......69.....74.67..489...26...47.4....2.6# 5 ......789..6.89....891.3.6.2.4.....8.78......69.....47.67..489...26...74.4....2.6# 5 .234.6.8.4.678....78..23...2.43.....67....3...38.......4...7..6...6......6.24.9.1# 5 .2345...945.7.9..37.9.23..52.437..9...5.9....9........3.7....5....24......2.3.61.# 5 1.3.5.78..56.8.1.378.1...65.1..6...7...9.....8..2..5..57...1..86.1...3...38.....1# 5 1.3.5..89.5...9.........4.5..4.7895......42.8..8....74...89..47...2.589.....475.2# 5 1.3.5..89.5.7.9...........5..4.7895......42.8..8....74...89..47...2.589.....475.2# 5 1.3.5..89.5.7.9...........5..4.7895......42.8..8....47...89..74...2.589.....475.2# 5 .234.6...4.678...378..23.6.2.43.76......48.....826.3...4..3.59.8..........2......# 5 .234.6...4.678...378..23.6.2.43.76......48.....826.3...4.83.59.8..........2......# 5 .2..567.9.5.7.912...912..65....9.65...5.1..72...5..9.13.82......6..7...........1.# 5 .234.6...4.678..2.78..23.6.2.436...8.68.47..2.7.....46.....4..........5.84.....9.# 5 1...5678...678.1.3...1.3.65...3.85.66...153.....67...8.92..............78...3..5.# 5 .2..567.9.5.7.912.7..12..65....9.65...5.1..72...5..9.13.82...9..6..7...........1.# 5 12..56..9.567.9...7.912...5....67...............5...345..67..1.6.2.91.5..712.5...# 5 1.3...78..56...1.378.....65.1...5....6.29...1......6..63..7..1.8.5.3..76.71...3.8# 5 .2.....8.4.6.....3...1.3......3.58.7....1725...72...31.7.5.23.8....31.72...87.51.# 5 12....7.9.56...12.7.91...652...38.7......7...967.......71...59.69.....12..2...6.7# 5 12....7.9.56...12.7.91...652...38.7......7...697.......71...59...2...6.796.....12# 5 12.4.6.8.4.6.8912..8912..6.....9.5.................31..4296.8..6.18.4...89...2...# 5 .2345.7.9...7.9.23....234..2..37.59.....952.4...2.4.375.....9.......7....61....7.# 5 12..56..9.567.9...7.912...52...........9.........1..345..67..1.6.2.91.5..712.5...# 5 12....7.9.56...12.7.9....6521...795.6.59...17.97.156........5....1.34....6.......# 5 1.345..8.45..89....891.3..5.1......6.9......7...5.1...54.83.....319.4...9...153..# 5 1.3.56.8..5678....78.1.3.6.....7.6....7.....4.35...2..3.16.8...5...17....7853....# 5 12..5.7.9.567..12.7.9....6521..7.5.66.5..1.7..97....12...9.........4....9.2.3....# 5 .234.6...4.678..2.78..23...2..3....8.3...75.2.7...2.1.36.2.4..7.4...8...8.......4# 5 1.345...945..89....891.3......3.8.5.5.........3....2.739.8.4....41.3....8.591..3.# 5 1.3.56.8..5678....78.1.3.6....3.......7.....4.35...2..3.16.8...5...178...7853....# 5 1.345..8.45..89....891.3...........639...........4.2.7.41......83..1.5.49.5.34..8# TE3

by **champagne** » Thu Apr 03, 2025 7:43 pm

coloin wrote:15607 puzzles -> 15593 different expands
185 BxB5
no BxB6
1 TE3

well done coloin.

If we keep in mind that the scan tries to extract new seeds in T&E(3), 1-2 seeds per million of solution grids is not a bad start.
The vicinity search around such seeds should deliver hard puzzles if it is similar to the "loki" family.
I sent a message and hope to receive soon a direct answer of mith to the question:
how many seeds used to build the T&E(3) file.

I hope to have the time this month to run the chunk 3 000 001 - 4 000 000(totally or part of it) with the cut off 27 clues // 34 clues

by **eleven** » Thu Apr 03, 2025 10:27 pm

champagne wrote:
eleven wrote:Semiannual note V:
I'll never understand, why so much cpu is burned to evaluate millions of tridagon puzzle ER ratings - instead of expanding the Sudoku Explainer or Sukaku solver with that pattern and e.g. rate placing a single tridagon extra candidate 7.0.

can you tell more??

The tridagon (thors hammer) pattern is known since at least 3 years, and it was a sensation, that puzzles containing it, could have the highest ratings. But many of these puzzles could easily be solved manually using this pattern (e.g. the first TE3 puzzle was manually solved in 10 minutes).
So the ratings don't say anything about, how hard a puzzle is for a manual solver. In my eyes they are of no worth (what should a rating for a solver program say, if any puzzle can be solved in a millisecond ?)
Looking at a list like coloin's above, i have to try each one manually to see, if it is hard or not. E.g. the first one isn't - tridagon, RT and solved - nice for the puzzle section, but my Sukaku Explainer takes one and a half minutes to spit out a rating of 10.6. This is just wasted time. I'm faster to see the tridagon extra candidate and then get the rating in a second.
So this is the morbid situation since 3 years.
[Added:] And yes, i repeat this 2 times each year, as long as this tridagon search hype lasts.

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