The New Sudoku Players' Forum

[1to9only]

8-clues JSW, Very Hard

Code: Select all

.................4......3............9.7.2.5............8......6................. 112223333111233334512223444511224444516666664555676868555977888999977788999977788 JSW  8 ED=7.9/1.5/1.5


Solution:: Show

Code: Select all

861547932237985164912674385145839276394762851476321598528193647659418723783256419


8-clues JSW, Very Hard

Code: Select all

...........4.......3................1..8.5..9................2.......6........... 111223333111123333441122355644222255664444555666747755666777788999977888999998888 JSW  8 ED=8.3/1.9/1.9


Solution:: Show

Code: Select all

319574862684293571235786914596132487167845239928417356473659128751928643842361795


8-clues JSWX, Very Hard

Code: Select all

..............4........762.............................519........3.............. 111123333111123333441222235446226255446666655447677655487777955888879999888879999 JSWX  8 ED=8.2/8.2/2.6


Solution:: Show

Code: Select all

685421973732194856349817625876549312913285467564732198251968734128376549497653281


10-clues JSW, Very Hard

Code: Select all

27.9...4.5.............................................................3.3...8.71 111222233411122333441112333445552236444555566748855666778888666777889999777899999 JSW 10 ED=7.7/1.7/1.7


Solution:: Show

Code: Select all

278931645549127368985364217326715894714582936861243759653479182197856423432698571


12-clues JSW, Medium

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6.4...1589.............................................................6452...7.3 111222333111122233114522553444525533446555737446777777486666979888869999888866999 JSW 12 ED=2.9/2.6/2.6


Solution:: Show

Code: Select all

634972158925781364189364527361457892278196435547238619896543271713825946452619783


JSWs, Singles only

Code: Select all

......9.......93......257.......81.............21.......357......74.......8...... 112223333111122333111222343555524444555644474855666677888699667888999677889999777 16 ED=1.5/1.2/1.2
.78......652.....43................7.........8................24.....256......69. 111122222111122233144552333444566633444556633774556888775566688777999988779999988 16 ED=1.5/1.2/1.2
.....8.................9..7691....25.........78....9163..1.................8..... 112222233144222233114455533114456553714456633714556666778886996777889999778888999 16 ED=1.5/1.2/1.2
...98...1....................3......48.....62......8....................6...35... 112223333111223333111122243566626444555666444755586644775588899778888999777789999 12 ED=1.5/1.5/1.5
9.5........4.7.1...........23.......................53...........7.4.2........7.6 111112222131114222333444252333445556733445556777748556777788866999988866999998866 14 ED=1.5/1.5/1.5
12.7.3.......................5...1..9.......2..6...4.......................3.5.98 112223344122233344112233444112553346511576646555576666857777996888877999888879999 14 ED=1.5/1.5/1.5
6.....9.82.5............2.9...........................3.8............3.64.7.....3 111222333122233333111244535612244555616444555666674485996778888996977788999977788 14 ED=1.5/1.5/1.5
..37..........56..974.......................................451..13..........89.. 111222333111223333114225533144225566744455566744855996748888996777889966777889996 14 ED=1.5/1.5/1.5
....6........75.9.........8..........8.....3..........6.........2.31........9.... 111223344112223444111223344512233346555555346577766666588779696888879999888777999 12 ED=1.5/1.2/1.2
3....82...8.6........29...................................31........6.9...47....6 111233333111222333411222535441226555444666555474466658777999668777999888779998888 14 ED=1.5/1.2/1.2
..7........9....3.....5...1..6...1.............8...9..1...2.....3....6........7.. 112222333111122233111422553664455553664455733644445777688877799688887799668899999 14 ED=1.5/1.2/1.2
.........7.......2.53...............53.7.2.81...............46.1.......8......... 111123333111122333414222335444222555466666555446666575488899977888897777889999977 14 ED=1.5/1.2/1.2
......5..3...2914......................8.3......................3165...2..7...... 111223344111233444152233444152223664155523666755553666778889969777888999777888999 14 ED=1.5/1.2/1.2
73.6.82........8.5..2.......................................1..5.1........71.6.39 111122223111222333411522333455555633444575666444576666848779996888879999888777799 16 ED=1.5/1.2/1.2
....8.9....25.1.....9.......................................2.....4.68....5.7.... 112222333111422233115422333155446663155466667555446677588844977888999977888999977 12 ED=1.5/1.5/1.5
2...56....8.....1.4.7.......................................4.7.1.....9....49...6 111122233411112333445512233444522663444552663755566666758889999777888999777788899 14 ED=1.5/1.5/1.5


[creint]

Code: Select all

..............4........762.............................519........3.............. 111123333111123333441222235446226255446666655447677655487777955888879999888879999 JSWX  8 ED=8.2/8.2/2.6

Can be solved using locked singles/sets/ 'generic' x-wing+swordfish.

[urhegyi]

The best I can get is this 14 clues JSW with the H layout nr 18.

Code: Select all

#1/W/B4,JS
2.......991..6..73.............................................84..5..961.......4
111223333112223433112225433611525444666555444666575884996577788996977788999977888

SiseSuSo rates this as 6.6.
Can you confirm this?
I personally think SE rating will be higher because SiSeSuSo uses Turbot-fish and UVWXYZ-wing.
edit:
There are not many layouts that qualify for JSWX:
One of them is layout 17 : stripes, from moonlotus I already knew it.
Stripes example with also 14 clues:

Code: Select all

#1/WX/B4,JS
............753.....1.9.4......6.................3......6.2.7.....476............
111222333111222333411522633441552663444555666744855966774885996777888999777888999


Rated by SiSeSuSo as 6.6 Turbot-fish.
update:
The layout nr 23 Tim Tang is valid for JSWX too:
example with 13 clues:

Code: Select all

#1/WX/B4,JS
....9......................8...3...2.19.4.86.3...7...6......................5....
112222233112444233112444233115444633715586639775888699775586699775888699775586699


Rated 5.5 by SiseSuSo(WXYZ-wing)

[1to9only]

10-clues JSWX, Very Hard

Code: Select all

.......................2............9356.8217............5....................... 111123333111122233144222233444525563444555666745585666778888669778889999777789999 JSWX 10 ED=8.0/1.0/1.0


Solution:: Show

Code: Select all

819736452453271689681452973276983541935648217342167895197524368768395124524819736


10-clues JSWX, Very Hard

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....9.......27...............8.3.................6.5...............51.......8.... 112222233111222233111144333555554366557444366557466666777448888779999888779999988 JSWX 10 ED=10.3/8.0/2.6


Solution:: Show

Code: Select all

286195437914278356537629148158936274625347981471863529762514893893451762349782615


8-clues JSWX, Very Very Hard

Code: Select all

..............629.................4...........3.................178.............. 111223333111123333114422355666422255667444255667774555668774499888879999888877999 JSWX  8 ED=10.6/10.6/2.9


Solution:: Show

Code: Select all

975263184843176295628945713256718349781354962134692857492531678517829436369487521


[1to9only]

JSW

Code: Select all

2.......991..6..73.............................................84..5..961.......4 111223333112223433112225433611525444666555444666575884996577788996977788999977888 JSW ED=6.5/1.5/1.5


JSWX

Code: Select all

............753.....1.9.4......6.................3......6.2.7.....476............ 111222333111222333411522633441552663444555666744855966774885996777888999777888999 JSWX ED=11.0/1.2/1.2
....9......................8...3...2.19.4.86.3...7...6......................5.... 112222233112444233112444233115444633715586639775888699775586699775888699775586699 JSWX ED=7.1/2.8/2.8


As noted before, SudokuExplainer rating has tendency to overrate...

[urhegyi]

I tried your 12 clues JSW(medium level):

Code: Select all

6.4...1589.............................................................6452...7.3 111222333111122233114522553444525533446555737446777777486666979888869999888866999 JSW 12 ED=2.9/2.6/2.6


solution:

Hidden Text: Show

Code: Select all

634972158925781364189364527361457892278196435547238619896543271713825946452619783


Generating with the same layout produced this JSW example with 14 clues and rating 6.6 Turbot-fish:

Code: Select all

#1/W/B4,JS
.3.....5..............6......1...8..2..1.6..5..7...6......4..............5.....8.
111222333111122233114522553444525533446555737446777777486666979888869999888866999


Or this 16 clues JSW example also rated 6.6 but with UVWXYZ-wing:

Code: Select all

#1/W/B4,JS
.34...15............9...5..3.......2.........5.......9..6...2............52...78.
111222333111122233114522553444525533446555737446777777486666979888869999888866999


Update:
Another layout for both JSW and JSWX:

Code: Select all

111222333111222333141123353444622655446666655446776555848879959888777999888777999


Both examples(14 clues) solve with Turbot-fish:
JSW:

Code: Select all

#1/W/B4,JS
..1.9.5..2.......1...5.9.................................7.6...3.......9..9.6.4..
111222333111222333141123353444622655446666655446776555848879959888777999888777999


JSWX:

Code: Select all

#1/WX/B4,JS
...4.2......9.8.......3....6.......9.........9.......6....5.......8.6......7.1...
111222333111222333141123353444622655446666655446776555848879959888777999888777999


[Hajime]

JSW

Code: Select all

2.......991..6..73.............................................84..5..961.......4 111223333112223433112225433611525444666555444666575884996577788996977788999977888 JSW ED=6.5/1.5/1.5


JSWX

Code: Select all

............753.....1.9.4......6.................3......6.2.7.....476............ 111222333111222333411522633441552663444555666744855966774885996777888999777888999 JSWX ED=11.0/1.2/1.2
....9......................8...3...2.19.4.86.3...7...6......................5.... 112222233112444233112444233115444633715586639775888699775586699775888699775586699 JSWX ED=7.1/2.8/2.8


As noted before, SudokuExplainer rating has tendency to overrate...

All can be solved with Turbot Fishes with the highest rating 4.2
The first with 9 Turbots, the second with 6 and the third needs only 1 Turbot.

[Hajime]

Code: Select all

..............4........762.............................519........3.............. 111123333111123333441222235446226255446666655447677655487777955888879999888879999 JSWX  8 ED=8.2/8.2/2.6

Can be solved using locked singles/sets/ 'generic' x-wing+swordfish.

I or SiSeSuSo cannot solve this puzzle (without BruteForce).
What is 'generic' x-wing+swordfish ? eg. 2 columns crossing 2 jigsaw pieces instead of rows?

[creint]

Code: Select all

..............4........762.............................519........3.............. 111123333111123333441222235446226255446666655447677655487777955888879999888879999 JSWX  8 ED=8.2/8.2/2.6

Can be solved using locked singles/sets/ 'generic' x-wing+swordfish.

I or SiSeSuSo cannot solve this puzzle (without BruteForce).
What is 'generic' x-wing+swordfish ? eg. 2 columns crossing 2 jigsaw pieces instead of rows?

X-Wing: Rank 0(no overlaping truths and links) with 2 truths and 2 links
Swordfish: Rank 0(no overlaping truths and links) with 3 truths and 3 links

So the first step after locked singles:
X-Wing on 1 (jigsaw piece 1,3) | (row 1,2) => -1r12c5
X-Wing on 2 (jigsaw piece 1,2) | (row 1,2) => -2r46789c5 + -2r4c4
And many more like this.

[Hajime]

So the first step after locked singles:
X-Wing on 1 (jigsaw piece 1,3) | (row 1,2) => -1r12c5
X-Wing on 2 (jigsaw piece 1,2) | (row 1,2) => -2r46789c5 + -2r4c4
And many more like this.

You can even have X-wing with 2 rows + 1 Jigsaw + 1 diagonal, isn't?

[creint]

Yes 2 constraints with 2 other constraints is an X-Wing.

[1to9only]

JSWXs, Difficulty: Medium

These are randomly created JSWX layouts (no repeats) with at least one grid successfully generated:

Code: Select all

..8....2..............9.1...1.......9.......7.......6...4.7..............5....7.. 111222333111222333141225363441525366444555666447585966747588969777888999777888999 JSWX 12 ED=2.9/1.5/1.5

..........47........5...4....8..6...............3..8....2...7........92.......... 111123333111123333415522236444552266447752266447755666487775596888879999888879999 JSWX 12 ED=2.8/1.2/1.2

..9.....7.3..6.52..........9.........................9..........94.7..8.3.....8.. 112222233111123333111222333444455566444555666445556666777888999777789999778888899 JSWX 14 ED=2.9/1.5/1.5

....4........1..63............36.................81............74..2........9.... 112233344112223344112233344111223444555555555666788999667778899667788899667778899 JSWX 12 ED=2.8/1.5/1.5

8.........2....8.....7.9......9...................3......5.1.....7....5.........6 111123333111222333114222233444425556444555666455576666887777699888777999888879999 JSWX 12 ED=3.4/1.5/1.5

...9......1.........7.............94.........63.............4.........2......8... 112222233111222333111123333455556666444456666444455556777789999777888999778888899 JSWX 10 ED=2.9/1.5/1.5

...5..7.........8..............21....9.....4....38..............2.........6..2... 111222333111222333114225633144255663444555666744558669774588699777888999777888999 JSWX 12 ED=2.9/2.3/2.3

.5...21..............3.....1..........4...6..........5.....1..............97...4. 112222233111222333111123333444455666445555566444556666777789999777888999778888899 JSWX 12 ED=2.9/1.2/1.2

.6.....9.5................17.........................32................9.5.....8. 111222333111123333141222353444226655446666655446677555848777959888879999888777999 JSWX 10 ED=2.9/1.2/1.2

...........7....3.............5......9.2.6.1......3.............5....4........... 112222233111222333411123335416666535444465555474666685477798885777999888779999988 JSWX 10 ED=2.9/1.2/1.2

.....6..........8......4...7.........724.385.........3...5......9..........9..... 112223344112223344112233344111233444555555555666778999667778899667788899667788899 JSWX 14 ED=2.0/1.5/1.5

.19......2.1.......7..............9...........4..............5.......6.7......13. 111222333112222233111123333444455666445555566444556666777789999778888899777888999 JSWX 12 ED=2.9/1.5/1.5

.......56...9..1........98...3.....................3...71........9..8...45....... 111222333112223333411255363411225666445555666444575686449777888999977888999977788 JSWX 14 ED=2.9/1.5/1.5

.......2........9....9...6........8...........9........4...7....5........3....... 112234444122233444122253344112553666115553666717853366777855996778889999778888999 JSWX 10 ED=2.9/1.5/1.5

...2........5...........6.....1.2...............9.4.....4...........7........8... 111122333111123333415523366444522266444522666744556688777599888775599988777999988 JSWX 10 ED=2.9/1.5/1.5

..7..5.................2.......698.............415.......8.................5..7.. 112222333111223333114225336114255666444555666444555676884899977888899777889999777 JSWX 12 ED=2.9/1.5/1.5

..7.945......2.....3.........................................4.....3......417.8.. 111222333111122333114422553444422533467477555467777585666977885669998888669999988 JSWX 12 ED=2.9/1.7/1.7

..........7...8........1.3.1....6...............7....5.8.9........4...8.......... 122223333112222333111244353161444555661644555666644755688997777888899977888999977 JSWX 12 ED=2.8/1.5/1.5

..46........8.5.......7............5.........3............5.......3.1........94.. 111223333111222333414222355414662355414666555444666655777789999777888999778888899 JSWX 12 ED=2.9/1.2/1.2

......3..........5..........6.8....33.......15....2.6..........4..........7...... 111122222111123322441553332444553366447753366447755666877755966887789999888889999 JSWX 12 ED=2.9/2.8/2.6

......182........6..............7...9.......8...6..............7........593...... 111123333111122233144222233445555263444456666748555566778888669778889999777789999 JSWX 12 ED=2.8/1.5/1.5

..........4..5.........6.......1....3..8.7..4....9.......1.........2..3.......... 111223333111222233411252336441255366444555666447558966477858996778888999777788999 JSWX 12 ED=2.9/1.2/1.2

.....6...........12........6........9.1...3.8........7........43...........6..... 111112333111122233444422233444552233445555566778855666778886666778889999777899999 JSWX 12 ED=2.9/1.5/1.5

...7.............8.....6....9......41.9...3.74......3....4.....5.............7... 112222233111112333141222333444455366445555566447556666777888969777899999778888899 JSWX 14 ED=3.6/1.5/1.5

........22...5........1...8.2........8.....3........9.3...4........7...15........ 111222333111122333114552236444522336444555666477885666478855699777889999777888999 JSWX 14 ED=2.8/1.5/1.5

..................457.9..38...........................86..3.124.................. 111223333112222333111222334516664444555666444555566674588999777888999977888899777 JSWX 12 ED=2.8/1.9/1.9

..................2..7...914.........................486...3..9.................. 111122222111122322145553366444753336447753366477753666447755568997998888999998888 JSWX 10 ED=2.9/1.5/1.5

....1........6.....4..7............3.........9............3..4.....8........2.... 111223333111123333114422355666422255667444255667774555668774499888879999888877999 JSWX 10 ED=2.8/1.5/1.5



[urhegyi]

Nice that you have automated the creation of layouts. My way of generating them needed a manual input and took a lot of time to find only a few examples like this JSWX with only 10 clues:

Code: Select all

#1/WX/B4,JS
.6.4.2.8..............1...................................3..............2.8.7.9.
111222233111123338114422238444552338475555538477655888476668899477769999776666999


Analysis log:

Code: Select all

Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku

Method   \  Sudoku |   SER |     1
                   |-------|------
Not counted elims  |     0 |   145
Naked Singles      |   0.1 |    16
Hidden Singles     |   0.2 |   121
Naked Single  [1]  |   2.5 |     9
Naked Pair    [2]  |     3 |     5
Naked Triple  [3]  |   3.6 |     5
Naked Quad    [4]  |     5 |     5
Hidden Quad   [5]  |   5.4 |     1
Hidden Triple [6]  |     4 |    15
Hidden Pair   [7]  |   3.4 |    13
Locked Singles[2]  |   2.8 |    55
Locked Singles[3]  |   2.9 |     9
Locked Singles[4]  |     3 |    26
Locked Singles[5]  |   3.1 |    12
Turbot-fish   [4]  |   4.2 |    18
                   |-------|------
Eliminated Cand's  |   455 |   455
Sum(SER * Cand's)  | 586.8 | 586.8

Initial Candidates :   455
Maximum SER rating :   5.4 - Approach
Labour rating      : 586.8 - Experimental rating


I'm interested in it's SE rating, I think it's a high one!

[Hajime]

this JSWX with only 10 clues:

Code: Select all

#1/WX/B4,JS
.6.4.2.8..............1...................................3..............2.8.7.9.
111222233111123338114422238444552338475555538477655888476668899477769999776666999


If you limit the Hidden Quad in Settings, the puzzle is still solvable and the maximum SER=4.2 from the Turbot.

I'm interested in it's SE rating, I think it's a high one!

Me too !

[urhegyi]

The 10 clues JSWX:

attention windoku windows not marked on picture

Code: Select all

.6.4.2.8..............1...................................3..............2.8.7.9. 111222233111123338114422238444552338475555538477655888476668899477769999776666999


Edit:
The question is if it is as hard as the 8 and 10 clues examples posted at the start of this thread.