The New Sudoku Players' Forum

[urhegyi]

I thought my last post was the highest difficulty I could achieve but thisone is even better.

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#1/WX/B4,JS
6.9...4.5...........................14.....29...........................3.2...1.8
111223333112223333112225663411525666444555666444585996744588899777788899777788999


It's the first time I see a hidden single[8] and the number of eliminations by turbot-fish is even higher.
Analyze log:

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Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku

Method   \  Sudoku |   SER |     1
                   |-------|------
Not counted elims  |     0 |   132
Naked Singles      |   0.1 |    49
Hidden Singles     |   0.2 |    84
Naked Pair    [2]  |     3 |     8
Naked Quad    [4]  |     5 |    12
Hidden Quad   [5]  |   5.4 |     1
Hidden Single [8]  |   2.5 |     1
Locked Singles[2]  |   2.8 |    73
Locked Singles[4]  |     3 |     1
Locked Singles[5]  |   3.1 |     3
Turbot-fish   [4]  |   4.2 |    35
                   |-------|------
Eliminated Cand's  |   399 |   399
Sum(SER * Cand's)  | 477.3 | 477.3

Initial Candidates :   399
Maximum SER rating :   5.4 - Approach
Labour rating      : 477.3 - Experimental rating


[1to9only]

SE ratings of the last 4 posted JSWXs with same 'H' layout:

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..9...4......................39.46....5...3....82.15......................2...1.. JSWX ED=4.2/2.8/2.6
.........45.....13...1.3.....3...6.............8...5.....5.9...59.....32......... JSWX ED=4.2/1.5/1.5
.1.....8.4.......3..................1.......9..................5.......2.6.....9. JSWX ED=7.8/2.9/2.6
6.9...4.5...........................14.....29...........................3.2...1.8 JSWX ED=4.2/1.5/1.5

111223333112223333112225663411525666444555666444585996744588899777788899777788999


I generated some ED=10+ JSWXs about a week ago, have not sorted through them, will post a few another time.

[urhegyi]

It seems that the latest public version of SiseSuSo didn't find all xy-wings. I solved a regular Sudoku with the program after I did it by hand and a crucial xy-wing wasn't found because it involved a box with a line(row or column). I already posted an example in the SiSeSuSo bugs/and suggestions thread a time ago. Wait now for the next version to see if it has been fixed. If not I will post todays test example. Seeing that SE can find them makes me pretty sure that its the same problem that SiSeSuSo considers only row/colums and not boxes.
This all is tested with the February version.
I see now the March version is available.
Will test it later.
Update : Fixed

[urhegyi]

Code: Select all

#1/WX/B4,JS
.........45.....13...1.3.....3...6.............8...5.....5.9...59.....32.........
111223333112223333112225663411525666444555666444585996744588899777788899777788999


14 Turbots fish of length 4. Amazing. Is that a record?

The new version of March solves this with X-wing/XY-wing instead of turbot-fish. Confirms result of SE.

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Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku

Method   \  Sudoku |   SER |     1
                   |-------|------
Not counted elims  |     0 |    78
Naked Singles      |   0.1 |    32
Hidden Singles     |   0.2 |   130
Naked Single  [1]  |   2.5 |     5
Naked Triple  [3]  |   3.6 |     6
Naked Quad    [4]  |     5 |     4
Hidden Quad   [5]  |   5.4 |     6
Hidden Triple [6]  |     4 |     2
Pointing/Claiming  |   2.8 |    66
X-Wing        [2]  |   3.2 |     4
XY-Wing       [3]  |   4.1 |     6
                   |-------|------
Eliminated Cand's  |   339 |   339
Sum(SER * Cand's)  | 345.9 | 345.9

Initial Candidates :   339
Maximum SER rating :   5.4 <- Approach
Labour rating      : 345.9 <- Experimental rating
Time needed        : 00:00:01.599


[urhegyi]

March version results in confirmation with SE.

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#1/WX/B4,JS
..9...4......................39.46....5...3....82.15......................2...1..
111223333112223333112225663411525666444555666444585996744588899777788899777788999


Code: Select all

Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku

Method   \  Sudoku |   SER |     1
                   |-------|------
Not counted elims  |     0 |    59
Naked Singles      |   0.1 |    32
Hidden Singles     |   0.2 |   136
Naked Triple  [3]  |   3.6 |    22
Pointing/Claiming  |   2.8 |    71
Locked Singles[3]  |   2.9 |    10
Locked Singles[4]  |     3 |    17
Locked Singles[5]  |   3.1 |    10
X-Wing        [2]  |   3.2 |     4
XY-Wing       [3]  |   4.1 |     6
                   |-------|------
Eliminated Cand's  |   367 |   367
Sum(SER * Cand's)  | 456.8 | 456.8

Initial Candidates :   367
Maximum SER rating :   4.1 <- Approach
Labour rating      : 456.8 <- Experimental rating
Time needed        : 00:00:01.974


[urhegyi]

March version results in confirmation with SE.

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#1/WX/B4,JS
6.9...4.5...........................14.....29...........................3.2...1.8
111223333112223333112225663411525666444555666444585996744588899777788899777788999


Code: Select all

Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku

Method   \  Sudoku |   SER |     1
                   |-------|------
Not counted elims  |     0 |   112
Naked Singles      |   0.1 |    22
Hidden Singles     |   0.2 |   142
Naked Pair    [2]  |     3 |     8
Naked Quad    [4]  |     5 |    12
Hidden Quad   [5]  |   5.4 |     1
Hidden Single [8]  |   2.5 |     1
Pointing/Claiming  |   2.8 |    77
Locked Singles[3]  |   2.9 |     1
Locked Singles[4]  |     3 |    14
Locked Singles[5]  |   3.1 |     3
XY-Wing       [3]  |   4.1 |     6
                   |-------|------
Eliminated Cand's  |   399 |   399
Sum(SER * Cand's)  | 416.9 | 416.9

Initial Candidates :   399
Maximum SER rating :   5.4 <- Approach
Labour rating      : 416.9 <- Experimental rating
Time needed        : 00:00:01.781


[1to9only]

Some JSWXs.

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.....5....9..........7...............86...32...............1..........5....9..... JSWX 10 ED=3.2/1.5/1.5
.....5.........4.....7...............86...32...............1.....4.........9..... JSWX 10 ED=7.7/1.5/1.5
..........9....4.....7...............86...32...............1.....4....5.......... JSWX 10 ED=8.1/1.5/1.5

..........9..........7...............86...32...............1..........5.......... JSWX  8 ED=9.2/9.2/2.9
.....5...............7...............86...32...............1...............9..... JSWX  8 ED=10.2/10.2/2.9

112223333112222333111422533144445566144555667445566667885996777888999977888899977


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4.7.....6...............4.........8...........2.........1...............9.....3.1 JSWX 10 ED=7.6/1.2/1.2
4.......6...............4..7......8...........2......3..1...............9.......1 JSWX 10 ED=7.8/1.2/1.2
4.7.....6..................7......8...........2......3..................9.....3.1 JSWX 10 ED=9.2/1.7/1.7
..7.....6...............4..7......8...........2......3..1...............9.....3.. JSWX 10 ED=9.3/1.7/1.7

4.7.....6.........................8...........2.........................9.....3.1 JSWX  8 ED=10.1/2.6/2.6
..7.....6...............4.........8...........2.........1...............9.....3.. JSWX  8 ED=10.1/2.6/2.6

112222333111122234111225334666555334676654434677555444677588999678889999777888899


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....2........5........1............2..6...7..4............9........3........4.... JSWX 10 ED=7.9/2.0/2.0
....2........5........1..........4....6...7....2..........9........3........4.... JSWX 10 ED=7.9/2.0/2.0
.............5........1..........4.2..6...7..4.2..........9........3............. JSWX 10 ED=9.3/9.3/2.8

....2........5........1...............6...7...............9........3........4.... JSWX  8 ED=10.1/2.0/2.0
.............5........1............2..6...7..4............9........3............. JSWX  8 ED=10.4/10.4/2.9

111122333111222233141223333445526666445555566444475566888877969887777999888779999


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...4.72....7..................5...................4..................1....36.8... JSWX 10 ED=11.3/7.6/2.6
...4.7.....7.........2........5...................4........3.........1.....6.8... JSWX 10 ED=11.4/10.9/2.6

111222333111222333141225363441525366444555666447585966747588969777888999777888999


Code: Select all

......................29....4.5.8...............7.2.3....65...................... JSWX 10 ED=9.1/2.8/2.8
.......................9....4.598...............762.3....6....................... JSWX 10 ED=10.7/10.5/2.6
......................29....4..98...............76..3....65...................... JSWX 10 ED=11.3/10.5/2.6

......................29....4...8...............7...3....65...................... JSWX  8 ED=20.0/0.0/2.9

111123333111222333112222233444556666445555566444455666778888899777888999777789999


The ED=20.0 JSWX is a valid puzzle, with unique solution, it is rated ED=12+, SE taking a long time to solve/rate. I'll post a final rating when I find time to get it rated!
When generating these puzzles, any that require very high-rated Chains take too long to rate, so the program returns ED=20.0.

[urhegyi]

Inpired by the posted high rated examples I tried to generate an extreme rated JSWX myself which wasn't easy.
I'm interested in its SE rating:

Code: Select all

#1/WX/B4,JS
..1.9.5.....1.6....2.....9.............................8.....7....3.5.....5.8.1..
886666644888866444888116644222213344222111333552213333557711999555779999557777799


[1to9only]

Code: Select all

..1.9.5.....1.6....2.....9.............................8.....7....3.5.....5.8.1.. 886666644888866444888116644222213344222111333552213333557711999555779999557777799 JSWX ED=8.0/2.8/2.8


An observation is that most of the ED=10.x/11.x JSWXs I've generated are 8/10-clues, a few (less than 10) are 12-clues, there are no 14-clues.

Easy/Medium difficulty JSWXs with 8/10-clues do popup occasionally, like this one:

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.2...............1...................195.647...................7...............8. JSWX 10 ED=1.5/1.2/1.2
.2...............1..................8.95.64.2..................7...............8. JSWX 10 ED=2.8/2.8/2.8
.................1..................8195.6472..................7................. JSWX 10 ED=7.6/1.0/1.0

.2...............1....................95.64....................7...............8. JSWX  8 ED=2.8/2.8/2.6

112223334112223344122233344155534444111555666777785556778889996778899966788899966


The ED=1.5 JSWX is below. It is Singles only.

[1to9only]

SE is slow and clunky, left comp running overnight, took a number of hours to rate this!!

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......................29....4...8...............7...3....65...................... JSWX  8 ED=20.0/0.0/2.9 -> final rating ED=12.6/11.4/2.9

111123333111222333112222233444556666445555566444455666778888899777888999777789999


[urhegyi]

Very hard JSWX twodoku with minimal number of clues!

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#2/WX/B4,JS/H16,JS
.2..........9.42.1..................1.............................5..............
111222233111222333111622333666644453664444555766445555778885999777888999777888999
.....5........7..........3...4......9.5...8......1...............................
999888777999888777999588877555544667555444466354446666333226111333222111332222111


analyze log:

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Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku

Method   \  Sudoku |   SER |     1     2
                   |-------|------------
Not counted elims  |     0 |   169   172
Naked Singles      |   0.1 |    25    38
Hidden Singles     |   0.2 |   204   124
Naked Pair    [2]  |     3 |     0     5
Hidden Pair   [7]  |   3.4 |     0    10
Pointing/Claiming  |   2.8 |    53    54
Locked Singles[3]  |   2.9 |     8    14
Locked Singles[4]  |     3 |    12    21
Locked Singles[5]  |   3.1 |     1     1
Turbot-fish   [4]  |   4.2 |     7    12
                   |-------|------------
Eliminated Cand's  |   930 |   479   451
Sum(SER * Cand's)  | 669.3 | 283.4 385.9

Initial Candidates :   930
Maximum SER rating :   4.2 <- Approach
Labour rating      : 669.3 <- Experimental rating
Time needed        : 00:00:06.069


another one with same layout but other solution grid:

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#2/WX/B4,JS/H16,JS
76....5.....................1..4...................6......................2......
111222233111222333111622333666644453664444555766445555778885999777888999777888999
...............................5..2...3...6...............1.............9.....2.6
999888777999888777999588877555544667555444466354446666333226111333222111332222111


analyze log:

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Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku

Method   \  Sudoku |   SER |     1     2
                   |-------|------------
Not counted elims  |     0 |   174    97
Naked Singles      |   0.1 |    46    20
Hidden Singles     |   0.2 |   134   225
Pointing/Claiming  |   2.8 |    52    63
Locked Singles[3]  |   2.9 |    24    15
Locked Singles[4]  |     3 |    31    17
Locked Singles[5]  |   3.1 |    12     2
Turbot-fish   [4]  |   4.2 |     5     0
                   |-------|------------
Eliminated Cand's  |   917 |   478   439
Sum(SER * Cand's)  | 721.9 | 397.8 324.1

Initial Candidates :   917
Maximum SER rating :   4.2 <- Approach
Labour rating      : 721.9 <- Experimental rating
Time needed        : 00:00:05.403


[urhegyi]

For a samurai JSWX you can use this grid in the middle:

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.................................................................................
111222333111222333111522333444552666444555666444855666777858999777888999777888999


example:

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#5/WX/B4,JS/N4,JS/H16,JS/B28,JS/N28,JS
..1...............5...............27...56.............4...........3..........6...
111222233111222333111622333666644453664444555766445555778885999777888999777888999
......6...................327...........91....................6.....4......3.....
777766111777666111778646111888446622888444222885544222999554332999555333999553333
...............................4.................3...............................
111222333111222333111522333444552666444555666444855666777858999777888999777888999
.....6......5.....9....................78...........148...................9......
333355999333555999233455999222445588222444888226644888111646877111666777111667777
...2..........4...........3.............29...68...............9...............3..
999888777999888777999588877555544667555444466354446666333226111333222111332222111


Analyze log:

Code: Select all

Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku

Method   \  Sudoku |   SER |     1     2     3     4     5
                   |-------|------------------------------
Not counted elims  |     0 |   135   134   215   171   135
Naked Singles      |   0.1 |    41    16    35     6    33
Hidden Singles     |   0.2 |   132   247    76   156   129
Naked Pair    [2]  |     3 |     0     0    17     0     9
Hidden Quad   [5]  |   5.4 |     0     0     0     0     5
Hidden Triple [6]  |     4 |     0     0     0     0     4
Hidden Pair   [7]  |   3.4 |     0     0     0    11     0
Pointing/Claiming  |   2.8 |    98    42   102    44    81
Locked Singles[3]  |   2.9 |     3     0    11     1     6
Locked Singles[4]  |     3 |     8     0    20     8     6
Locked Singles[5]  |   3.1 |     4     0     1     3     2
                   |-------|------------------------------
Eliminated Cand's  |  2147 |   421   439   477   400   410
Sum(SER * Cand's)  |  1565 |   350 168.6 450.3 228.6 367.5

Initial Candidates :  2147
Maximum SER rating :   5.4 <- Approach
Labour rating      :  1565 <- Experimental rating
Time needed        : 00:00:07.520


solution:

Hidden Text: Show

Code: Select all

761492583894637152523718469615849327237561948349285671458173296976324815182956734
111222233111222333111622333666644453664444555766445555778885999777888999777888999
321749658586173429495286713273465891648591372917632584854927136732814965169358247
777766111777666111778646111888446622888444222885544222999554332999555333999553333
296713854815964732734852169372648591658197423149235687987521346461389275523476918
111222333111222333111522333444552666444555666444855666777858999777888999777888999
154326987298573461967148523532469178416782359783295614871634295645917832329851746
333355999333555999233455999222445588222444888226644888111646877111666777111667777
346291857275384961918467523762958134531729648684135792123576489897643215459812376
999888777999888777999588877555544667555444466354446666333226111333222111332222111


[urhegyi]

If anyone wants to try it: a picture of the JSWX samurai posted above. All 5 grids have the diagonal and windoku properties.

Code: Select all

#5/WX/B4,JS/N4,JS/H16,JS/B28,JS/N28,JS
..1...............5...............27...56.............4...........3..........6...
111222233111222333111622333666644453664444555766445555778885999777888999777888999
......6...................327...........91....................6.....4......3.....
777766111777666111778646111888446622888444222885544222999554332999555333999553333
...............................4.................3...............................
111222333111222333111522333444552666444555666444855666777858999777888999777888999
.....6......5.....9....................78...........148...................9......
333355999333555999233455999222445588222444888226644888111646877111666777111667777
...2..........4...........3.............29...68...............9...............3..
999888777999888777999588877555544667555444466354446666333226111333222111332222111

[Hajime]

The march version of SiSeSuSo can now paint Windoku-borders and SudokuX diagonales.
Not fully to my satisfaction (X center-cell and Sudoku border in other Sudoku's)

[urhegyi]

Another candidate for the middle grid is thisone:

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.................................................................................
111222333111242333111242333552246666555444666555547766888747999888747999888777999


example:

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#5/WX/B4,JS/N4,JS/H16,JS/B28,JS/N28,JS
...4.............2...7....96...4.........................................8.9.....
111222233111222333111622333666644453664444555766445555778885999777888999777888999
.....2...8........5....6.......9...2.........................................4.5.
777766111777666111778646111888446622888444222885544222999554332999555333999553333
.................................................................................
111222333111242333111242333552246666555444666555547766888747999888747999888777999
.3.1.........................................6...9.......4....3........2...6.....
333355999333555999233455999222445588222444888226644888111646877111666777111667777
.....7.2.........................................5...67....4...8.............6...
999888777999888777999588877555544667555444466354446666333226111333222111332222111


analyze log:

Code: Select all

Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku

Method   \  Sudoku |   SER |     1     2     3     4     5
                   |-------|------------------------------
Not counted elims  |     0 |   208   111   248   100   173
Naked Singles      |   0.1 |    35    33    32    21    53
Hidden Singles     |   0.2 |   126   180   142   194    61
Naked Pair    [2]  |     3 |     2     0     3     0    27
Naked Triple  [3]  |   3.6 |     6    16     0     7    13
Naked Quad    [4]  |     5 |     0    11     0    20     0
Hidden Quad   [5]  |   5.4 |     9     0     8     0     0
Hidden Pair   [7]  |   3.4 |     0     0    11     0     0
Pointing/Claiming  |   2.8 |    31    96   120    97    74
Locked Singles[3]  |   2.9 |    10     6     6     9    18
Locked Singles[4]  |     3 |     7     9     7     7    13
Locked Singles[5]  |   3.1 |     2     4     1     6     2
Turbot-fish   [4]  |   4.2 |     0    13     0     9     0
                   |-------|------------------------------
Eliminated Cand's  |  2397 |   436   479   578   470   434
Sum(SER * Cand's)  |2269.8 | 247.9 532.1 498.7 541.2 449.9

Initial Candidates :  2397
Maximum SER rating :   5.4 <- Approach
Labour rating      :2269.8 <- Experimental rating
Time needed        : 00:00:12.196


solution:

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