The New Sudoku Players' Forum

by **urhegyi** » Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:24 pm

The search for new layouts continues:
arriving at 9 clues JSWX example:

attention windoku windows not marked on picture

Code: Select all: 7.......35.......4......................2......................1.......98.......6 444111122444111222544112266543332266555333666558833376558899776888999777889999777

Edit:
The one I posted before with 10 clues was much harder, but I posted thisone for the nice form and the fact it has only 9 clues the numbers from 1 to 9!
Looks easy but will know more after trying it by hand. When looking at the number of eliminations by naked/hidden quad it can be more difficult to solve by hand then I thought.
This can be an interesting one to keep with a nice solvepath?

Code: Select all: Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku Method \ Sudoku | SER | 1 |-------|------ Not counted elims | 0 | 98 Naked Singles | 0.1 | 18 Hidden Singles | 0.2 | 127 Naked Single [1] | 2.5 | 2 Naked Pair [2] | 3 | 13 Naked Quad [4] | 5 | 6 Hidden Quad [5] | 5.4 | 42 Hidden Pair [7] | 3.4 | 6 Locked Singles[2] | 2.8 | 90 Locked Singles[3] | 2.9 | 20 Locked Singles[4] | 3 | 20 |-------|------ Eliminated Cand's | 442 | 442 Sum(SER * Cand's) | 718.4 | 718.4 Initial Candidates : 442 Maximum SER rating : 5.4 - Approach Labour rating : 718.4 - Experimental rating

But this layout permits also very hard ones like:

Code: Select all: #1/WX/B4,JS ............7.8..............5...7..4.7...6.1..6...9..............3.6............ 444111122444111222544112266543332266555333666558833376558899776888999777889999777

Code: Select all: Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku Method \ Sudoku | SER | 1 |-------|------ Not counted elims | 0 | 86 Naked Singles | 0.1 | 34 Hidden Singles | 0.2 | 146 Naked Pair [2] | 3 | 10 Naked Triple [3] | 3.6 | 10 Hidden Quad [5] | 5.4 | 4 Locked Singles[2] | 2.8 | 76 Locked Singles[3] | 2.9 | 13 Locked Singles[4] | 3 | 8 Locked Singles[5] | 3.1 | 1 WXYZ Wing [4] | 5.5 | 5 VWXYZ Wing [5] | 6.3 | 1 Turbot-fish [4] | 4.2 | 5 |-------|------ Eliminated Cand's | 399 | 399 Sum(SER * Cand's) | 452.6 | 452.6 Initial Candidates : 399 Maximum SER rating : 6.3 - Approach Labour rating : 452.6 - Experimental rating

Can the rating of 6.3 be confirmed by SE?

by **1to9only** » Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:10 pm

Code: Select all: .6.4.2.8..............1...................................3..............2.8.7.9. 111222233111123338114422238444552338475555538477655888476668899477769999776666999 JSWX ED=7.9/7.9/2.9 7.......35.......4......................2......................1.......98.......6 444111122444111222544112266543332266555333666558833376558899776888999777889999777 JSWX ED=7.7/7.7/2.8 ............7.8..............5...7..4.7...6.1..6...9..............3.6............ 444111122444111222544112266543332266555333666558833376558899776888999777889999777 JSWX ED=7.1/1.5/1.5

by **Hajime** » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:05 am

urhegyi wrote:
Code: Select all
7.......35.......4......................2......................1.......98.......6 444111122444111222544112266543332266555333666558833376558899776888999777889999777

Edit:
The one I posted before with 10 clues was much harder, but I posted thisone for the nice form and the fact it has only 9 clues the numbers from 1 to 9!

Indeed a very nice layout/puzzle with all 9 givens symmetrical.
And when omitting the naked/hidden quad it is still possible to solve with basic methods and locked singles (generalized intersections).

Code: Select all: Method \ Sudoku | SER | 1 |-------|------ Not counted elims | 0 | 98 Naked Singles | 0.1 | 18 Hidden Singles | 0.2 | 127 Naked Single [1] | 2.5 | 2 Naked Pair [2] | 3 | 19 Naked Triple [3] | 3.6 | 4 Hidden Pair [7] | 3.4 | 8 Locked Singles[2] | 2.8 | 126 Locked Singles[3] | 2.9 | 20 Locked Singles[4] | 3 | 20 |-------|------ Eliminated Cand's | 442 | 442 Sum(SER * Cand's) | 601.6 | 601.6 Initial Candidates : 442 Maximum SER rating : 3.6 <- Approach Labour rating : 601.6 <- Experimental rating Time needed : 00:00:02.204

The elimination of candidates is shifted to locked singles.
Especially the singles locked in 4 ! houses that eliminated 20 candidates will be hard.

Maybe that rating should not be "3" , but much higher.
What is the highest rated method in SE (with ED=7.7) ?

by **1to9only** » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:51 pm

The ED=7.7 and ED=7.9 are Nishio Forcing Chains.
The ED=7.1 is a Bidirectional Cycle.

Interestingly, the 2 in r5c5 can be removed to make an 8-clues JSWX:

Code: Select all: 7.......35.......4.............................................1.......98.......6 444111122444111222544112266543332266555333666558833376558899776888999777889999777 JSWX ED=9.1/9.0/2.8

The ED=9.x are Cell/Region/Double/Conradiction Forcing Chains.

by **urhegyi** » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:53 pm

Hajime wrote:
urhegyi wrote:
Code: Select all
7.......35.......4......................2......................1.......98.......6 444111122444111222544112266543332266555333666558833376558899776888999777889999777

Edit:
The one I posted before with 10 clues was much harder, but I posted thisone for the nice form and the fact it has only 9 clues the numbers from 1 to 9!

Indeed a very nice layout/puzzle with all 9 givens symmetrical.
And when omitting the naked/hidden quad it is still possible to solve with basic methods and locked singles (generalized intersections).
Code: Select all
Method \ Sudoku | SER | 1 |-------|------ Not counted elims | 0 | 98 Naked Singles | 0.1 | 18 Hidden Singles | 0.2 | 127 Naked Single [1] | 2.5 | 2 Naked Pair [2] | 3 | 19 Naked Triple [3] | 3.6 | 4 Hidden Pair [7] | 3.4 | 8 Locked Singles[2] | 2.8 | 126 Locked Singles[3] | 2.9 | 20 Locked Singles[4] | 3 | 20 |-------|------ Eliminated Cand's | 442 | 442 Sum(SER * Cand's) | 601.6 | 601.6 Initial Candidates : 442 Maximum SER rating : 3.6 <- Approach Labour rating : 601.6 <- Experimental rating Time needed : 00:00:02.204

The elimination of candidates is shifted to locked singles.
Especially the singles locked in 4 ! houses that eliminated 20 candidates will be hard.

Maybe that rating should not be "3" , but much higher.
What is the highest rated method in SE (with ED=7.7) ?

Even the Naked triple isn't needed:
The reduced analysis for the 9 clues variant:

Code: Select all: Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku Method \ Sudoku | SER | 1 |-------|------ Not counted elims | 0 | 98 Naked Singles | 0.1 | 18 Hidden Singles | 0.2 | 127 Naked Single [1] | 2.5 | 6 Naked Pair [2] | 3 | 19 Hidden Pair [7] | 3.4 | 8 Locked Singles[2] | 2.8 | 126 Locked Singles[3] | 2.9 | 20 Locked Singles[4] | 3 | 20 |-------|------ Eliminated Cand's | 442 | 442 Sum(SER * Cand's) | 597.2 | 597.2 Initial Candidates : 442 Maximum SER rating : 3.4 - Approach Labour rating : 597.2 - Experimental rating

by **urhegyi** » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:42 pm

A very hard new example with a new layout:

Code: Select all: #1/WX/B4,JS 7.......3....................61.92.....9.3.....32.48....................5.......6 112222255111222555111125555666649999666444999766444998777434888777333888773333388

Can SE confirm the rating of 8+ found by SiSeSuSo?
Or a slightly adapted layout with an example a bit less hard as the one before:

Code: Select all: #1/WX/B4,JS ....9........3........8......4...2..8..243..5..6...7......7........6........2.... 332222244333222444333121444355111664555111666555516666777789999777888999778888899

Rated 5.0 by SiseSuSo but it counts Turbot-fish as 4.2 so I guess SE will give 6.6?

by **urhegyi** » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:34 pm

1to9only wrote:
Code: Select all
.6.4.2.8..............1...................................3..............2.8.7.9. 111222233111123338114422238444552338475555538477655888476668899477769999776666999 JSWX ED=7.9/7.9/2.9 7.......35.......4......................2......................1.......98.......6 444111122444111222544112266543332266555333666558833376558899776888999777889999777 JSWX ED=7.7/7.7/2.8 ............7.8..............5...7..4.7...6.1..6...9..............3.6............ 444111122444111222544112266543332266555333666558833376558899776888999777889999777 JSWX ED=7.1/1.5/1.5

Using the extra hidden constraints of windoku would considerably reduce this ratings!

by **Hajime** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:48 am

urhegyi wrote:Rated 5.0 by SiseSuSo but it counts Turbot-fish as 4.2 so I guess SE will give 6.6?

This is what is listed in SE Rating here

Code: Select all: '3.6, 3.8, 4.0: Naked Triplet, Swordfish, Hidden Triplet '4.0-4.3: Skyscraper, 2-String Kite, Turbot Crane '4.2, 4.4: XY-Wing, XYZ-Wing

So Turbot Fish is about 4.2 , isn't ?

by **urhegyi** » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:30 pm

In the original SE rating there are no skyscrapers, kites, cranes only Turbot-Fish (verity or contradiction) with a rating of 6.6.
Because SE don't know of WXYZ-wing I think this example will be rated 7.1 or so.
Can this be confirmed?

Code: Select all: #1/WX/B4,JS ...5.1................4....35.....67.........28.....56....1................4.5... 444478888444477788111477788111373782113333322196363222996665222996665555999965555

Code: Select all: Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku Method \ Sudoku | SER | 1 |-------|------ Not counted elims | 0 | 95 Naked Singles | 0.1 | 23 Hidden Singles | 0.2 | 155 Locked Singles[2] | 2.8 | 43 Locked Singles[3] | 2.9 | 13 Locked Singles[4] | 3 | 12 Locked Singles[5] | 3.1 | 5 WXYZ Wing [4] | 5.5 | 4 Turbot-fish [4] | 4.2 | 8 |-------|------ Eliminated Cand's | 358 | 358 Sum(SER * Cand's) | 298.5 | 298.5 Initial Candidates : 358 Maximum SER rating : 5.5 - Approach Labour rating : 298.5 - Experimental rating

This example was constructed without generalized intersection methods and without WXYZ-wings. So it must be solvable with 4.2 rating(SiSeSuSo) or 6.6 rating(SE).
This is the SiSeSuSo log after disabling wings and Locked Singles. Only pointing/claiming, subsets and turbot-fish allowed:

Code: Select all: Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku Method \ Sudoku | SER | 1 |-------|------ Not counted elims | 0 | 125 Naked Singles | 0.1 | 42 Hidden Singles | 0.2 | 107 Naked Pair [2] | 3 | 4 Naked Triple [3] | 3.6 | 8 Locked Singles[2] | 2.8 | 60 Turbot-fish [4] | 4.2 | 12 |-------|------ Eliminated Cand's | 358 | 358 Sum(SER * Cand's) | 284.8 | 284.8 Initial Candidates : 358 Maximum SER rating : 4.2 - Approach Labour rating : 284.8 - Experimental rating

Now I'm very interested in the SE approach of the story.

by **1to9only** » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:46 am

urhegyi wrote:In the original SE rating there are no skyscrapers, kites, cranes only Turbot-Fish (verity or contradiction) with a rating of 6.6.
Because SE don't know of WXYZ-wing I think this example will be rated 7.1 or so.

From past ratings, SE substitutes/solves these using Forcing Chains and Nishio Forcing Chains.

Code: Select all: ...5.1................4....35.....67.........28.....56....1................4.5... JSWX ED=7.6/1.5/1.5 444478888444477788111477788111373782113333322196363222996665222996665555999965555 Difficulty rating: 7.6 This Windoku Jigsaw can be solved using the following logical methods: 64 x Hidden Single (1.0-1.5) 1 x Direct Pointing (1.7) 2 x Direct Claiming (1.9) 6 x Cage Pointing (2.6) 14 x Claiming (2.8) 18 x Generalized Intersection (2.9) 4 x Forcing Chain (7.1-7.2) 1 x Aligned Triplet Exclusion (7.5) 1 x Nishio Forcing Chains (7.6)

by **urhegyi** » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:08 pm

Another example which generates very quickly:

Code: Select all: #1/WX/B4,JS .6.....8............5...1............3.5.9.6............4...9............7.....3. 111222233112223333411253363411256666445555566444457996848857996888877799887777999

by **urhegyi** » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:14 pm

I found a nice JSWX example with only 10 clues and solvable by turbot-fish and xy-chains.
SiseSuso takes its time to calculate, but finds a solvepath.
What about SE?

Code: Select all: #1/WX/B4,JS ...................3.....6....9.8...8.......2...2.5....7.....4................... 441118833444118333441118833441888893699999993697777255667722255666722555667722255

analyse log:

Code: Select all: Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku Method \ Sudoku | SER | 1 |-------|------ Not counted elims | 0 | 109 Hidden Singles | 0.2 | 247 Locked Singles[2] | 2.8 | 59 Locked Singles[3] | 2.9 | 6 Turbot-fish [4] | 4.2 | 4 XY-chain [4] | 4.6 | 2 |-------|------ Eliminated Cand's | 427 | 427 Sum(SER * Cand's) | 258 | 258 Initial Candidates : 427 Maximum SER rating : 4.6 - Approach Labour rating : 258 - Experimental rating

hints:

Hidden Text: Show

Code: Select all: #1/WX/B4,JS 7...9...3...................1.....2...........8.....1...................4...5...6 441118833444118333441118833441888893699999993697777255667722255666722555667722255

Analyze log:

Code: Select all: Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku Method \ Sudoku | SER | 1 |-------|------ Not counted elims | 0 | 88 Naked Singles | 0.1 | 49 Hidden Singles | 0.2 | 97 Naked Pair [2] | 3 | 7 Naked Triple [3] | 3.6 | 4 Naked Quad [4] | 5 | 7 Locked Singles[2] | 2.8 | 107 Locked Singles[3] | 2.9 | 13 Locked Singles[4] | 3 | 18 Locked Singles[5] | 3.1 | 9 Turbot-fish [4] | 4.2 | 18 XY-chain [11] | 7.3 | 4 |-------|------ Eliminated Cand's | 421 | 421 Sum(SER * Cand's) | 618.7 | 618.7 Initial Candidates : 421 Maximum SER rating : 7.3 - Approach Labour rating : 618.7 - Experimental rating

by **urhegyi** » Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:21 am

A long time ago I did some tests with JSWX and the H-layout which wasn't working. Now I have found out why. I did 2 little swaps on the layout which is now JSWX compliant.
examples:

Code: Select all: #1/WX/B4,JS ..9...4......................39.46....5...3....82.15......................2...1.. 111223333112223333112225663411525666444555666444585996744588899777788899777788999

solution:

Hidden Text: Show

Code: Select all: #1/WX/B4,JS .........45.....13...1.3.....3...6.............8...5.....5.9...59.....32......... 111223333112223333112225663411525666444555666444585996744588899777788899777788999

solution:

Hidden Text: Show

by **Hajime** » Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:56 pm

urhegyi wrote:
Code: Select all
#1/WX/B4,JS .........45.....13...1.3.....3...6.............8...5.....5.9...59.....32......... 111223333112223333112225663411525666444555666444585996744588899777788899777788999

14 Turbots fish of length 4. Amazing. Is that a record?

by **urhegyi** » Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:16 pm

What do you think of thisone?

Code: Select all: #1/WX/B4,JS .1.....8.4.......3..................1.......9..................5.......2.6.....9. 111223333112223333112225663411525666444555666444585996744588899777788899777788999

It's the first time I see a locked singles[6]!
Then those wings and the number of turbot-fishes makes this a hard nut to crack.
Analyze log:

Code: Select all: Eliminated candidates per Method and per Sudoku Method \ Sudoku | SER | 1 |-------|------ Not counted elims | 0 | 97 Naked Singles | 0.1 | 33 Hidden Singles | 0.2 | 104 Naked Single [1] | 2.5 | 4 Naked Pair [2] | 3 | 7 Naked Triple [3] | 3.6 | 8 Hidden Triple [6] | 4 | 29 Hidden Pair [7] | 3.4 | 5 Locked Singles[2] | 2.8 | 68 Locked Singles[3] | 2.9 | 22 Locked Singles[4] | 3 | 24 Locked Singles[5] | 3.1 | 17 Locked Singles[6] | 3.2 | 2 XYZ Wing [3] | 4.4 | 2 WXYZ Wing [4] | 5.5 | 4 UVWXYZ Wing [6] | 6.6 | 3 Turbot-fish [4] | 4.2 | 24 |-------|------ Eliminated Cand's | 453 | 453 Sum(SER * Cand's) | 753.6 | 753.6 Initial Candidates : 453 Maximum SER rating : 6.6 - Approach Labour rating : 753.6 - Experimental rating

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