Fully symmetrical puzzles

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Postby tarek » Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:41 pm

No new patterns,

I was referring to the collection of 10,000+ puzzles posted by Ocean following the already-posted patterns.

tarek
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Postby Pat » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:55 pm

alright then, your puzzles would still be of interest in studying various properties
-- would certainly be good to rate them for difficulty
    where would you post such a large collection ?
    your own web-site ??
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Postby JPF » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:30 pm

With the expansion of the Patterns Game, we are now producing tons of inequivalent minimal puzzles with the same pattern.

For example, here are 1000 (minimal and all different) puzzles with the same fully symmetric pattern and a rating ER=9.0 :
Code: Select all
 . . . | . . . | . . .
 . . 1 | 2 . 3 | 4 . .
 . 5 . | 6 . 7 | . 8 .
-------+-------+-------
 . 9 8 | . . . | 7 2 .
 . . . | . . . | . . .
 . 2 3 | . . . | 8 5 .
-------+-------+-------
 . 6 . | 4 . 2 | . 7 .
 . . 4 | 1 . 8 | 9 . .
 . . . | . . . | . . .


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Postby Pat » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:35 pm

JPF wrote:With the expansion of the Patterns Game, we are now producing tons of inequivalent minimal puzzles with the same pattern.

For example, here are minimal-and-all-different puzzles
with the same fully symmetric pattern
and a rating ER=9.0--


yes but i'd like to see many different ratings
( as in the "patterns game" )
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Postby JPF » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:46 pm

Hmm, 1000 is to much for this site.
Only 782 were accepted:(

Pat wrote:yes but i'd like to see many different ratings
( as in the "patterns game" )

Do you want me to post 180 000 puzzles (only 12 000 rated) ?

I'm sure gsf has more if required.

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Postby tarek » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:16 pm

I'll post them here....

divide them to groups of 700 each if that is acceptable

I'll do that in 3-4 days

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Postby gsf » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:36 pm

JPF wrote:I'm sure gsf has more if required.

I've been collecting ~100K inequivalent minimal puzzles / game since game 0020
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Postby ronk » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:21 pm

While I don't presently have a better suggestion, I don't think Players' Forums is the proper place to be posting 100,000+ puzzles -- or even 10,000+ puzzles -- with a particular SE rating for a particular pattern, for example.

The "cream of the crop" -- a few 100+ or so -- like on the Patterns Game thread is sufficient IMO.

After all, we don't even post all the 17s here!
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Postby Pat » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:44 am

ronk wrote:The "cream of the crop" -- a few 100+ or so -- like on the Patterns Game thread is sufficient IMO.


yes, exactly,
a broad range of difficulties, as in the "patterns game"
-- something for everyone -- that's all i asked for

    a single post
    is apparently limited to 64 K
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Postby tarek » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:00 am

What about the 20-clue FSM puzzles. Should I post all of what I have .....

There aren't many of them ..... My collection (2-3K) coupled with what Ocean's posted probably cover >95% of all 20-clue FSMs

tarek

[EDIT:] Here is a link to the post where Ocean mentioned this collection of puzzles http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/viewtopic.php?t=3721&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=78. Here is a link to that file Ocean20.txt. it has the following heading
Code: Select all
#Minimal 20s with full symmetry. Compiled by O. Nevstveit May 10th, 2006.
#10117 puzzles. 14 different patterns.
#Contains also 11 puzzles by "ab", who found the 'first' in most of the patterns.
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Postby JPF » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:04 am

ronk wrote:While I don't presently have a better suggestion, I don't think Players' Forums is the proper place to be posting 100,000+ puzzles -- or even 10,000+ puzzles -- with a particular SE rating for a particular pattern, for example.

The "cream of the crop" -- a few 100+ or so -- like on the Patterns Game thread is sufficient IMO.

After all, we don't even post all the 17s here!

Pat wrote:
ronk wrote:The "cream of the crop" -- a few 100+ or so -- like on the Patterns Game thread is sufficient IMO.


yes, exactly,
a broad range of difficulties, as in the "patterns game"
-- something for everyone -- that's all i asked for

    a single post
    is apparently limited to 64 K

I've really a hard time to understand people who are not (or few) contributor of a thread, coming and set rules for the others.
Obviously, there is no question in the two threads mentioned (that I've actually started) to post billion of puzzles, but let's be open-minded. Please, contribute to the topics of the threads, not to the rules of the forum which are the moderator's duty.
Thanks.

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Postby Pat » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:40 am

tarek wrote:What about the 20-clue FSM puzzles. Should I post all of what I have .....

There aren't many of them ..... My collection (2-3K) coupled with what Ocean's posted probably cover >95% of all 20-clue FSMs


hey tarek, have you noticed that Ocean has been silent these past few months?
anyway, on page 6 he wrote (2006.May.24) --
I now have a collection of more than 15000 fully symmetrical puzzles with 20 clues.
But it's probably too early for an update
-- and apparently hasn't updated his list.
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Postby ronk » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:14 pm

JPF wrote:I've really a hard time to understand people who [...] set rules for the others.

With my use of "I think" and "IMO", it should be obvious I was expressing an opinion ... not trying to set a rule (as if that were even possible).
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Postby JPF » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:01 pm

About the 20-clues FSM puzzles :

tarek wrote:There aren't many of them ..... My collection (2-3K) coupled with what Ocean's posted probably cover >95% of all 20-clue FSMs

There are 98 non equivalent patterns.
Only 67 may possibly have a valid puzzle.
Only 16 have been found so far.

I have no idea on the number of non equivalent puzzles for each pattern.
How do you estimate the 95 % ?

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Postby tarek » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:18 pm

JPF wrote:I have no idea on the number of non equivalent puzzles for each pattern.
How do you estimate the 95 % ?
Very rough estimate based on the how extensive the search is .... some of the searches were not random but were 2-off 2-on based & they were extensive (to closure in most cases) .... That surly is worth 2 standard deviations:D


On another note .....

My collection has 10075 20-clue FSM puzzles that come from Ocean's collection (It was done about 6 months ago, so I'm not sure if that was due to isomorphs or is it due to non-minimal puzzles present).

1407 is the number of 20-clue FSM puzzles that I generated (I was away from database & I quoted the previous estimate from memory)

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