Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby blue » Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:26 pm

Serg wrote:It was great to see so fast confirmation of this by blue! Could you biefly describe your method, blue?

The work was all done before JPF's "maximal invalid" post.
I was just confirming that the list of 100 "frame + 2" puzzles was complete.

I mentioned that I had tried two different methods. The fastest method was to generate a list of ED "r19c19" frames, filter out the ones with no solutions, and then run "+2" tests on
each of them, with the two cells restricted to the 252 cases with either two clues in box 5, or one clue in box 5, and the other in one of boxes 2,4,6,8.

I used a "speedup trick" too, that reduced the average number of solver calls per frame, from ~5900 to ~500.

The trick was, for each frame, to collect the distinct solutions to the "+2" puzzles, and for each new one, update a list of 2*(252*9*9) flags, indicating whether 0,1 or "2 or more" solutions have been seen for the ((cell1,cell2), digit1, digit2) cases that are still to come. Then as each new case comes up, obviously if 2 or more solutions have already been seen, there's no need to call the solver.

For timing: generating, testing and dumping the valid ED frames, took under 3 minutes to run (@4.3GHz) ... and much longer to code :)
The "+2" phase took ~11 core hours, using a solver built on dobrichev's "FSSS2".

For JPF: there were 33,592,591 ED frames, including 4847 cases with no extension to a complete grid.
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby Serg » Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:02 pm

Hi, blue!
Thank you for clarification of your method!

Serg

[Edited: I was wrong in my assumption. It was deleted. Thanks to blue for his correction.]
Last edited by Serg on Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby blue » Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:40 pm

<withdrawn>
Last edited by blue on Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby coloin » Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:14 pm

Excellent numbers ....

My initial estimation method for the number of ED 9x9 frames has [retrospectively] proved uncannilly accurate

[729 frames per solution grid]
[118000 is the average sol count of 9x9 frames]

5,472,730,538 x 729 / 118000 = 33,810,343

Whilst one ponders on that one .....

here is another potential minima
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|...|...|...|
|.12|345|7..|
|.7.|...|8..|
+---+---+---+
|.6.|...|4.8|
|.8.|.1.|3..|
|.5.|...|9..|
+---+---+---+
|.39|572|1..|
|...|...|.2.|
|...|9..|...|
+---+---+---+   a pleasing 6x6C plus 4 
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby Serg » Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:26 pm

< withdrown >
Last edited by Serg on Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby JPF » Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:29 pm

Edited

B3B5B7 plus 3
Higher up in this thread, jovi_al01 indicated that after exhaustive analysis, the number of ed-puzzles was 684.
Assuming the list of 684 puzzles given is confirmed, it follows that this pattern is invalid:
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|...|...|xxx|
|...|...|xxx|
|...|...|xxx|
+---+---+---|
|...|xxx|...|
|.x.|xxx|...|
|...|xxx|...|
+---+---+---+
|xxx|...|...|
|xxx|...|...|
|xxx|.xx|...|
+---+---+---+

If this pattern is invalid then it's a maximal invalid pattern.
To prove it, here are valid puzzles:
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|1..|...|234|   |.1.|...|234|   |...|1..|234|   |...|.1.|234|
|...|...|516|   |...|...|567|   |...|...|561|   |...|...|561|
|...|...|789|   |...|...|891|   |...|...|789|   |...|...|789|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|...|967|...|   |...|732|...|   |...|781|...|   |...|179|...|
|.8.|325|...|   |.2.|584|...|   |.8.|365|...|   |.8.|652|...|
|...|148|...|   |...|916|...|   |...|924|...|   |...|483|...|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|321|...|...|   |247|...|...|   |198|...|...|   |368|...|...|
|468|...|...|   |185|...|...|   |274|...|...|   |154|...|...|
|975|.86|...|   |936|.27|...|   |356|.78|...|   |927|.68|...|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|...|...|123|   |...|...|123|   |...|...|123|   |...|...|123|
|...|...|456|   |...|...|456|   |...|...|456|   |...|...|456|
|...|...|789|   |...|...|789|   |...|...|789|   |...|...|789|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|6..|185|...|   |.3.|268|...|   |...|253|.1.|   |...|741|...|
|.4.|692|...|   |.2.|715|...|   |.9.|178|...|   |.8.|652|.9.|
|...|374|...|   |...|493|...|   |...|469|...|   |...|839|...|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|236|...|...|   |674|...|...|   |518|...|...|   |238|...|...|
|491|...|...|   |512|...|...|   |239|...|...|   |796|...|...|
|578|.41|...|   |983|.26|...|   |467|.91|...|   |154|.28|...|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|...|...|123|   |...|...|123|   |...|...|123|   |...|...|123|
|...|...|456|   |...|...|456|   |...|...|456|   |...|...|456|
|...|...|789|   |...|...|789|   |...|...|789|   |...|...|789|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|...|268|...|   |...|174|...|   |...|752|...|   |...|649|...|
|.7.|491|...|   |.8.|293|...|   |.5.|368|...|   |.6.|137|...|
|...|357|...|   |...|856|...|   |...|194|...|   |...|825|...|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|836|5..|...|   |458|.6.|...|   |271|...|...|   |195|...|...|
|294|...|...|   |271|...|...|   |368|...|...|   |638|...|.9.|
|715|.89|...|   |396|.82|...|   |594|271|...|   |472|.18|...|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
+---+---+---+
|...|...|123|
|...|...|456|
|...|...|789|
+---+---+---+
|...|587|...|
|.8.|326|...|
|...|194|...|
+---+---+---+
|561|...|...|
|394|...|...|
|827|.39|.6.|
+---+---+---+

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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby JPF » Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:04 pm

blue wrote:For JPF: there were 33,592,591 ED frames, including 4847 cases with no extension to a complete grid.

Thanks. The numbers I had given were fanciful!

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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby blue » Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:27 pm

JPF wrote:Assuming the list of 684 puzzles given is confirmed, it follows that ...

It is complete.
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby m_b_metcalf » Mon Apr 17, 2023 10:17 am

Does anyone know off-hand whether this is a permissible pattern (see this puzzle)?

Code: Select all
 5 6 . 3 . 4 . 1 2
 7 . . . . . . . 4
 1 . . . . . . . 8
 2 . . . . . . . 7
 6 . . 4 8 9 . . 3
 9 . . . . . . . 1
 3 . . . . . . . 5
 8 . . . . . . . 9
 4 7 . 1 . 2 . 8 6


Thanks,

Mike
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby JPF » Mon Apr 17, 2023 12:54 pm

Does anyone know off-hand whether this is a permissible pattern?

Yes, it is valid pattern. See here.

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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby m_b_metcalf » Mon Apr 17, 2023 1:07 pm

JPF wrote:
Does anyone know off-hand whether this is a permissible pattern?

Yes, it is valid pattern. See here.

jpf, many thanks. I may have this question again!

Mike
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby JPF » Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:20 pm

Mike wrote:jpf, many thanks. I may have this question again!

Regarding the letters I and J proposed by Mike:
Letter I
I haven't found fewer than 8 solutions to the following pattern:
Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| x x x | x x x | x x . |
| x x x | x x x | x x . |
| . . . | x x . | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | x x . | . . . |
| . . . | x x . | . . . |
| . . . | x x . | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | x x . | . . . |
| x x x | x x x | x x . |
| x x x | x x x | x x . |
+-------+-------+-------+

My conjecture is that this pattern is invalid. The same holds true for any pattern included within it.

Letter J
Here are the patterns J1 proposed for the letter J and an equivalent pattern J2:
Code: Select all
           J1                          J2
+-------+-------+-------+   +-------+-------+-------+
| x x x | x x x | x x . |   | . . . | . x . | . . . |
| x . . | x x . | . x . |   | x x x | x x x | x x . |
| . . . | x x . | . . . |   | x x x | x x x | x x x |
+-------+-------+-------+   +-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | x x . | . . . |   | . . . | . . . | . . . |
| . . . | x x . | . . . |   | . . . | x x . | . . . |
| x x . | x x . | . . . |   | . . . | . x . | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+   +-------+-------+-------+
| x . . | x x . | . . . |   | . . . | . x . | . . x |
| x . . | x x . | . . . |   | . . x | . x . | . . x |
| . x x | x . . | . . . |   | . . x | x x . | x x . |
+-------+-------+-------+   +-------+-------+-------+


J2 is included in this invalid pattern (2a) determined by Serg here.
Code: Select all
(2a)
+-------+-------+-------+
| x x x | x x x | x x x |
| x x x | x x x | x x x |
| x x x | x x x | x x x |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . x . | . . . |
| . . . | x x x | . . . |
| . . . | . x . | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| x x x | x x x | x x x |
| x x x | x x x | x x x |
| x x x | x x x | x x x |
+-------+-------+-------+

J2 is therefore invalid, and thus its equivalent J1 is also invalid.

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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby m_b_metcalf » Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:27 pm

jpf,

Many thanks for that piece of research. I'm glad it wasn't me (as was the case for H).

Mike

P.S. All the remaing letters are 'clean'.
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby Serg » Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:01 am

Hi, JPF!
JPF wrote:Letter I
Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| x x x | x x x | x x . |
| x x x | x x x | x x . |
| . . . | x x . | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | x x . | . . . |
| . . . | x x . | . . . |
| . . . | x x . | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | x x . | . . . |
| x x x | x x x | x x . |
| x x x | x x x | x x . |
+-------+-------+-------+

My conjecture is that this pattern is invalid. The same holds true for any pattern included within it.

I checked this pattern by filtering through "40 maximal invalid patterns" list and through fully symmetrical invalid patterns. I didn't find an invalid pattern which is superset of this pattern. So, this pattern may be valid.

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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby blue » Fri Apr 21, 2023 11:51 am

It can be transformed to subset of "S1" in this family of patterns:

Code: Select all
          B3                          B1                          S2

. . . | . . . | . x x       . . . | . . . | . x x       . . . | . . . | . x x
. . . | . . . | . x x       . . . | . . . | . x x       . . . | . . . | . x x
. . . | . . . | . x x       . . . | . . . | . x x       . . . | . . . | . x x
------+-------+------       ------+-------+------       ------+-------+------
. . . | . . . | x x x       . . . | x x x | x x x       . . . | x x x | x x x
. . . | x x x | x x x       . . . | x x x | x x x       . . . | x x x | x x x
x x x | x x x | x x x       x x x | . . . | x x x       x x x | x x x | x x x
------+-------+------       ------+-------+------       ------+-------+------
x x x | x x x | x x x       x x x | x x x | x x x       x x x | . . . | x x x
x x x | x x x | x x x       x x x | x x x | x x x       x x x | x x x | x x x
x x x | x x x | x x x       x x x | x x x | x x x       x x x | x x x | x x x


          S1                          S3

. . . | . . . | . x x       . . . | . . . | . x x
. . . | . . . | . x x       . . . | . . . | . x x
. . . | . . . | . x x       . . . | . . . | . x x
------+-------+------       ------+-------+------
. . . | . . . | x x x       . . . | x x x | x x x
x x x | x x x | x x x       x x x | . . . | x x x
x x x | x x x | x x x       x x x | x x x | x x x
------+-------+------       ------+-------+------
. . . | x x x | x x x       . . . | x x x | x x x
x x x | x x x | x x x       x x x | x x x | x x x
x x x | x x x | x x x       x x x | x x x | x x x

I'm 99.99% sure that they are maximal invalid ("magic") patterns.
They haven't been confirmed (by Serg), though.
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