Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby coloin » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:40 pm

Of the 200 B159plus3 puzzles I have ....99% were of the 1st pattern
and to serg .... Im afraid that its a crude method - if a puzzle is not found in reasonable time the chances are that the pattern doesnt have valid puzzles ...
but a pattern either has puzzles or it doesnt ... even some 18C patterns just dont have puzzles ... even though similar patterns differing by 1 clue do !!
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby coloin » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:43 pm

JPF wrote:Here is an other one with symmetry:
Code: Select all
 2 . . | . . . | . . 8
 7 . . | 3 . 9 | . . 6
 5 . . | . . . | . . 1
-------+-------+-------
 6 . . | . 8 . | . . 7
 3 . . | . . . | . . 2
 4 . 9 | . . . | 3 . 5
-------+-------+-------
 8 . . | . . . | . . 4
 9 . . | . . . | . . 3
 1 2 3 | 4 5 6 | 7 8 9

JPF


very good ....
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby JPF » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:36 pm

5 clues is never enough?
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|...|...|...|
|...|...|...|
|...|...|...|
+---+---+---+
|...|...|xxx|
|...|...|xxx|
|...|...|xxx|
+---+---+---+
|...|xxx|xxx|
|...|xxx|xxx|
|...|xxx|xxx|
+---+---+---+

It can work with 6 clues but B3 has to be 0 and at least one B5,B7 = 0

Here are examples:
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|72.|...|...|   |...|.8.|...|   |...|...|...|   |...|..3|...|
|...|5..|...|   |..5|...|...|   |1..|7..|...|   |.65|...|...|
|..6|...|...|   |2.7|...|...|   |.26|...|...|   |..7|...|...|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|...|...|217|   |...|5..|197|   |..8|...|197|   |8..|...|214|
|..4|3..|685|   |...|...|635|   |...|.2.|685|   |...|...|678|
|...|...|394|   |6..|...|284|   |...|...|324|   |...|...|395|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|...|485|963|   |...|821|963|   |...|487|961|   |...|754|963|
|...|971|852|   |...|764|852|   |...|163|852|   |3..|169|852|
|...|632|741|   |...|935|471|   |...|952|743|   |...|832|741|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+

Code: Select all
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|...|6..|...|   |...|69.|...|
|9.2|...|...|   |3..|...|...|
|3..|...|...|   |74.|...|...|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|.6.|...|189|   |...|...|317|
|.8.|...|675|   |..6|...|295|
|...|...|324|   |...|...|684|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|...|514|963|   |...|821|963|
|...|793|852|   |...|764|852|
|...|862|741|   |...|953|741|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+

Conjecture: with 5 clues, Min sol. = 5

JPF
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby m_b_metcalf » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:52 pm

JPF wrote:Conjecture: with 5 clues, Min sol. = 5

First stab:
Code: Select all
 . . . 3 . . . . .
 4 . . . . . . . .
 9 . . . . . . . .
 . 5 . . . . 1 2 3
 . 3 . . . . 4 5 6
 . . . . . . 7 8 9
 . . . 2 7 9 8 6 4
 . . . 5 3 8 2 7 1
 . . . 1 6 4 9 3 5   14 solution(s)


Mike
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby JPF » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:09 pm

I should have given an example:
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|.82|...|...|
|...|...|...|
|...|.45|...|
+---+---+---+
|...|...|275|
|...|...|698|
|5..|...|314|
+---+---+---+
|...|281|936|
|...|674|852|
|...|953|741|
+---+---+---+    5 sol.

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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby JPF » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:32 pm

BTW 5 clues are enough for this pattern:
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|xxx|...|...|
|xxx|...|...|
|xxx|...|...|
+---+---+---+
|...|...|...|
|...|...|...|
|...|...|...|
+---+---+---+
|...|xxx|xxx|
|...|xxx|xxx|
|...|xxx|xxx|
+---+---+---+

Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|123|...|.6.|
|456|.3.|...|
|789|...|...|
+---+---+---+
|...|..1|...|
|...|...|..7|
|.3.|...|...|
+---+---+---+
|...|367|219|
|...|189|654|
|...|542|378|
+---+---+---+

EDIT : 4 clues are enough...
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|123|...|...|
|456|...|...|
|789|...|...|
+---+---+---+
|...|.5.|...|
|..2|...|..1|
|...|.4.|...|
+---+---+---+
|...|784|539|
|...|293|617|
|...|165|428|
+---+---+---+

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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby coloin » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:12 pm

Thanks for those 2 patterns ... I will update the list,

5 clues are probably never enough
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+           
|...|...|...|           
|...|...|...|           
|...|...|...|           
+---+---+---+           
|...|...|xxx|           
|...|...|xxx|           
|...|...|xxx|           
+---+---+---+           
|...|xxx|xxx|           
|...|xxx|xxx|           
|...|xxx|xxx|           
+---+---+---+   

as 5 clues are only just needed for
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+ 
|1..|..2|...| 
|...|...|..3| 
|.4.|...|...| 
+---+---+---+ 
|...|293|651| 
|...|654|987| 
|.5.|781|432| 
+---+---+---+ 
|...|176|329| 
|...|529|148| 
|...|438|576| 
+---+---+---+   valid 36plus5

maybe Serg can show that adding 5 clues is impossible with his list of invalid crossing patterns ...

and

I suspect we have proof that 2 clues are never enough for this pattern

Code: Select all
                                                                   
+---+---+---+      +---+---+---+                                         
|xxx|xxx|...|      |123|869|...|                                         
|xxx|xxx|...|      |456|732|...|                                         
|xxx|xxx|...|      |789|415|...|                                         
+---+---+---+      +---+---+---+                                         
|...|...|...|      |2..|.4.|...|                                         
|...|...|...|      |...|...|.5.|                                         
|...|...|...|      |...|...|...|                                         
+---+---+---+      +---+---+---+                                         
|...|xxx|xxx|      |...|597|812|                                         
|...|xxx|xxx|      |...|186|534|                                         
|...|xxx|xxx|      |...|324|796|                                         
+---+---+---+      +---+---+---+    valid 36plus3 puzzle 
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby JPF » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:30 pm

For this pattern B1359, one is enough but in the right box:

Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|xxx|...|xxx|
|xxx|...|xxx|
|xxx|...|xxx|
+---+---+---+
|...|xxx|...|
|...|xxx|...|
|...|xxx|...|
+---+---+---+
|...|...|xxx|
|...|...|xxx|
|...|...|xxx|
+---+---+---+

+---+---+---+
|123|...|495|
|456|...|783|
|789|...|612|
+---+---+---+
|...|143|...|
|...|657|...|
|...|829|...|
+---+---+---+
|...|...|879|
|.9.|...|354|
|...|...|126|
+---+---+---+

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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby jovi_al01 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:51 pm

coloin wrote:I generated all the ED 237083 ways to fill B1B5B9. There was no puzzle adding 2 clues.
On adding 3 clues to approx 1/3 of all the 237083 B1B5B9there were 200 27plus3 puzzles,
so probably there are around 600 of such 27plus3 puzzles. [presently have 500]


i've found that there are 684 of them:
Hidden Text: Show
......123......456......789...123......457..2..3689...239..8...486......751......
......123......456......789...123......457.3...2689...2415.....638......975......
......123......456......789...123......4572....3689...279..8...381......546......
......123......456......789...123......4573....2689...135......2465.....879......
......123......456......789...123..4...769.....7458...178......325......469..1...
......123......456......789...123..4...856.....8749...145......287.1....639......
......123......456......789...123..4...589.....9476...1587.....247......936......
......123......456......789...123......547.....3689...146...5..732..8...859......
......123......456......789...123......547.....3689...146...5..732..8...958......
......123......456......789...124......589.....4376...183......476...3..529..8...
......123......456......789...123......4782....3695...128......379.8....546......
......123......456......789...123......547.....7689...139...6..654......728.5....
......123......456......789...124......957.....5368...172.4....356.....8948......
......123......456......789...124......759.....5836...198......563.....8742.1....
......123......456......789...124.6....736.....2859...158......437......629..5...
......123......456......789...124......576.....1389...184......5364.....729.....8
......123......456......789...124......739.....3856...198......365.....8742.1....
......123......456......789...124......795.....9638...241...6..768......953.8....
......123......456......789...124......358.....1769...157.4....326.....8984......
......123......456......789...124......763.....6958...169...3..435......7285.....
......123......456......789...124......368..4..2957...159......463..9...827......
......123......456......789...148......276.....6539...184...3..269..5...375......
......123......456......789...124..8...786.....6359...135......427......869..5...
......123......456......789...123......4572....3869...251.4....368......497......
......123......456......789...123......4572....3869...152.4....386......974......
......123......456......789...123......4672....3589...239..8...485......761......
......123......456......789...123......4572....3869...251.4....479......836......
......123......456......789...124......968..5..1735...1842.....725......963......
......123......456......789...124......857.....4369...149......236.....5875.1....
......123......456......789...124......739.....3865...1369.....495......728....4.
......123......456......789...124......365.....6798...135......268.5....479...3..
......123......456......789...123..4...857.....7694...178......325......496..1...
......123......456......789...124......637.....6985...135......469..1...728...3..
......123......456......789...124......637.....6985...135......469....1.728.5....
......123......456......789...123..4...769.....7854...178......325......496..1...
......123......456......789...123..4...587.....7694...175......328......496..1...
......123......456......789...124......597..8..2683...251......386.5....794......
......123......456......789...124......697.....9538...192....3.476......583..6...
......123......456......789...124......375.....3869...128......375...2..649..8...
......123......456......789...123......4672....3589...285......461......739..8...
......123......456......789...123......4572....3869...256.4....471......839......
......123......456......789...124......673.....6958...135......469....1.728..5...
......123......456......789...124......356.....3798...189......367..1...542...9..
......123......456......789...124......763.....6895...1295.....435......768...3..
......123......456......789...124......783.....3659...1852.....397.....4462......
......123......456......789...124......783.....3659...185...2..397..6...462......
......123......456......789...123..4...769.....7584...175......328......496..1...
......123......456......789...124......389.....2576...174......5364.....829.....7
......123......456......789...124......763.....2895...135......246...3..879.5....
......123......456......789...123......567.....7489...165......439.....1728.5....
......123......456......789...123......567.....7489...165......439..1...728....6.
......123......456......789...124......783.....3659...3764.....451......892.....5
......123......456......789...123......4789....3956...246......385..2...791......
......123......456......789...1248.....378.....3659...167......395......842.1....
......123......456......789...124......397.....3856...189......365.....8742.1....
......123......456......789...124......358.....4967...189......356.....2427.1....
......123......456......789...124......358.....1796...196......327....1.458..9...
......123......456......789...124......658.....1973...157....4.489......623.9....
......123......456......789...124......867.....2359...128....3.459..6...763......
......123......456......789...124......835.....4769...159......746...9..823.5....
......123......456......789...124......675.....5389...273.....85964.....841......
......123......456......789...124......875.....1396...127....4.459......6837.....
......123......456......789...123..4...458.....8697...146......825.7....937......
......123......456......789...123......457.....5968...179...3..2648.....358......
......123......456......789...124......397..8..4568...1724.....495......638......
......123......456......789...123......457.....7968...159....4.634......728..6...
......123......456......789...124......653.....1789...1582.....432......967.....4
......123......456......789...124......675.....6983...198.....7237......465..2...
......123......456......789...123......457.....7986.3.163......285......4796.....
......123......456......789...124......587.....4369...2516.....693......847....9.
......123......456......789...124......759.....9368...251.4....683......947.....8
......123......456......789...124......957.....9836...197.....8524.1....836......
......123......456......789...148......3768....6925...1847.....375......962......
......123......456......789...124......687.....6539...167.....5539......824.1....
......123......456......789...123..4...967.....7854...178......325......496..1...
......123......456......789...1243.....963.....6857...1682.....359......427......
......123......456......789...124......356..4..1879...152.8....639......748......
......123......456......789...124......356..4..1879...152.8....639......847......
......123......456......789...124.7....768.....6395...169......458..9...723......
......123......456......789...126......473.....4589...148...5..329.6....675......
......123......456......789...123......467.....3598...164...5..759......832..9...
......123......456......789...123......467.....3598...1647.....759......832....9.
......123......456......789...124......875.....1963...187....4.369......452.9....
......123......456......789...126..4...853.....8749...185.7....274......639......
......123......456......789...126.7....473.....3589...396......7428.....851......
......123......456......789...126......358.....6479...194...6..2358.....867......
......123......456......789...126......358.....6794...194...6..235.8....867......
......123......456......789...124......367.....3589...158......396.....5742.1....
......123......456......789...123..4...485.....8679...1872.....236......495......
......123......456......789...124......358.....4967...189......326.....5457.1....
......123......456......789...124......936.....6857...172.4....498......635.....8
......123......456......789...124......659.....2387...253.....8647.1....891......
......123......456......789...124......659.....2387...253.....8467.1....981......
......123......456......789...124......635.....2798...143...6..295.8....678......
......123......456......789...124......635.....2798...134...6..259.8....687......
......123......456......789...124......7569....2983...154......278......963..1...
......123......456.....1789...142......789.....2653...174......293...8..685......
......123......456......789...123..4...485.....8679...145..6...827......936......
......123......456......789...123......467..1..2859...165......428......973..8...
......123......456......789...123......469..1..2587...1456.....683......927......
......123......456......789...124......857.....4936...157..8...832.....4946......
......123......456......789...124......376.....4589...138......647...3..952..8...
......123......456......789...124......675.....5389...279.....85364.....841......
......123......456......789...123..4...845.....3679...251......437.9....869......
......123......456......789...124......653.....2798...251....9.389......4673.....
......123......456......789...124......379..4..2685...2315.....478......965......
......123......456......789...124......653.....2798...251....9.6473.....839......
......123......456......789...124......379..4..2658...2315.....478......965......
......123......456......789...124......653.....2798...251....9.398......4673.....
......123......456......789...124......653.....2798...251.8....398......467...3..
......123......456......789...124......568.1...4739...123.5....596......847......
......123......456......789...124......653.....2798...251.8....647...3..938......
......123......456......789...124......576.....4938...185......742.1....963.....5
......123......456......789...124......759.6...4683...196......3479.....825......
......123......456......789...123......568.....1479...183...9..264.5....579......
......123......456......789...124......637.....6589...169......453.9....728...3..
......123......456......789...1249.....835.....8697...159......472.1....863......
......123......456......789...1245.....735.....3698...147......259.8....386......
......123......456......789...1243.....753.....5869...1582.....369......427......
......123......456......789...123......469.....4578...127......345..7...986.....2
......123......456......789...124......957.....9836...251.4....497.....8683......
......123......456......789...124......759.....9368...197.....8254.1....386......
......123......456......789...124......365..8..4897...287......369......4512.....
......123......456.....1789...142......789.....2563...174......293...8..586......
......123......456......789...124......578.....1639...148..7...523.....1679......
......123......456......789...123......469.....4578...147......385..7...926.....8
......123......456......789...1246.....357.....3986...176......3528.....894......
......123......456......789...123......4782....3596...176......298.1....435......
......123......456......789...123..4...485.....8697...186.5....235......497......
......123......456.....1789...142......687.....6539...195......463.....5782......
......123......456......789...124......538.....4976...197...6..3582.....426......
......123......456......789...124......673.....6985...128.5....469...3..735......
......123......456......789...124......673.....6985...128....7.4693.....735......
......123......456......789...123......469.....4578...158..7...296.8....437......
......123......456......789...124......573.....3698...1462.....285......739.....8
......123......456......789...123..4...869.....8745...187......435......629.3....
......123......456......789...124......396.....1578...168.....4532......794..5...
......123......456......789...124......369.....4758...2358.....497.....1861......
......123......456......789...124......953.....9687...176...3..2985.....435......
......123......456......789...124......739.....9865...1963.....453......728....4.
......123......456......789...124......673.....6598...129..5...468...3..735......
......123......456.....1789...153......827.....3649...256.....4391......478......
......123......456......789...123......567.....6984...1586.....427....3.639......
......123......456......789...123..4...859.....8746...145......827.1....936......
......123......456......789...123..4...859.....9746...158.7....247......936......
......123......456......789...123......469.....4857...126.7....478......539.....2
......123......456......789...124......689..2..1375...184.5....369......725......
......123......456......789...124......859.....1367...153......746...3..829..5...
......123......456......789...124.3....369.....6758...169......3578.....428......
......123......456......789...124......387.....3956...1852.....397.....4462......
......123......456......789...124.3....367.....6958...167......3592.....428......
......123......456.....1789...142......879.....2563...184......293.....7576......
......123......456......789...123......478.3...4659...169......247......385..2...
......123......456......789...124......739.....3856...248......365.4....791.....8
......123......456......789...124.3....376.....7589...176......385.9....429......
......123......456......789...123......469.....6857...168......257...6..394..1...
......123......456......789...123......478.3...4659...149......267......385..2...
......123......456......789...124......763.....6958...1285.....435......769...3..
......123......456......789...123......478.....4659...149...6..267......835..2...
......123......456......789...123......478.....4659...1497.....267......835.....2
......123......456......789...123......4782....3569...1356.....298......674......
......123......456.....1789...142......879.....2653...184......293.....7675......
......123......456......789...124......583.....4796...246.7....571......893....1.
......123......456......789...124......583.....4796...246..1...571......893.....7
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......123......456......789...124......587.....4396...289....7.463......5714.....
......123......456......789...124......859.....1367...137......526....4.8497.....
......123......456......789...124......859.....1367...137......526....4.9487.....
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......123......456......789...124......586.....6397...157......263.....5849.1....
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......123......456......789...124......385.....5697...291......356..9...847...2..
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......123......456......789...124......587.....4396...289....7.5714.....643......
......123......456......789...124......385.....4697...287...9..539......6415.....
......123......456......789...124......385.....4697..2189.3....457......632......
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......123......456......789...124......685.9...4379...149......258......7364.....
......123......456......789...1246.....385.....8697...176......285.3....439......
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......123......456......789...124......397.....2586...1356.....287...9..946......
......123......456......789...124......658..4..2379...281......3497.....657......
......123......456......789...124.6....367.....7985...129......473......685..9...
......123......456......789...124......387.9...4596...172..8...435......689......
......123......456......789...124......578.....1639...184..7...253.....1769......
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......123......456......789...124......587.....4396...289....7.346......5714.....
......123......456......789...124......379.....9658..4125.8....394......768......
......123......456......789...124......756.....2839...183......265..8...794...6..
......123......456......789...124.9....693.....3875...198......3467.....527......
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......123......456......789...124......387.....8596...153......496...3..872..5...
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......123......456......789...124......379..8..1658...172.4....435......896......
......123......456......789...124......379..8..2658...271.4....435......896......
......123......456......789...124......5832....8796...185......296......437..1...
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......123......456......789...124......785.....4639...186......247....1.359..6...
......123......456......789...124......687.....8395...165......742.1....893.....5
......123......456......789...124......5832....8796...195......286......437..1...
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......123......456......789...124......687.....2395...1685.....295......473...6..
......123......456......789...124......957.....2368...2958.....486......731...9..
......123......456......789...124......389..7..4765...245......7369.....981......
......123......456......789...124......389..7..4675...245......7369.....981......
......123......456......789...124......837.....3956...179.....4384......562..8...
......123......456......789...126......4736....2985...295......367..4...481......
......123......456......789...126......358.....5479...1396.....567......842....7.
......123......456......789...124......986.7...4537...275......6934.....841......
......123......456......789...124......368..5..1597...128.4....375......649......
......123......456......789...124......375.9...2968...174.3....256......938......
......123......456......789...1248.....687.....6539...3612.....482......975......
......123......456......789...124......576.....6839...173...2..268......945..8...
......123......456......789...124......687.....2539...168..5...479...6..523......
......123......456......789...124......753.....5968...182......5368.....794...3..
......123......456......789...124......986..2..1573...185......763.9....924......
......123......456......789...124......369.....9875...127.4....395.....8468......
......123......456......789...124......639.....9785...1274.....395.....8468......
......123......456......789...124......639.....9785...127...6..395..8...468......
......123......456......789...1248.....873.....3956...395......761......842.9....
......123......456......789...124......957.....5368...198......563.....8742.1....
......123......456......789...124......576.....2893...1456.....279....1.863......
......123......456......789...1245.....873.....3956...162......3846.....795......
......123......456......789...124......395.....9768...135......298.5....476...3..
......123......456......789...124......587.....7396...176......542.1....839.....2
......123......456......789...124......768.....4395...273....1.691......845..9...
......123......456......789...124......795.....5386...271...3..348......956..8...
......123......456......789...124......795.....5386...2714.....348......956.....8
......123......456......789...126......358.....5479...1396.....567......824....7.
......123......456......789...124......739..8..2568...2714.....435......896......
......123......456......789...124......957.....5368...172.4....653.....8948......
......123......456......789...124......657.....5839...482......563..8...791...6..
......123......456......789...124......837.....1956...172.4....356.....8948......
......123......456......789...124......389.....9675...1469.....327......985.....7
......123......456......789...1248.....837.....3956...345......761......892.7....
......123......456......789...124......957.....2368...173...9..286......4958.....
......123......456......789...124......957.....2368...173...9..286......5948.....
......123......456......789...124......385.....4967...1497.....625......738...6..
......123......456......789...124......368..5..4957...139......248..1...765......
......123......456......789...124......857.....4936...175..8...496......832.....4
......123......456......789...124......967..8..2385...174..2...295......863......
......123......456......789...124......587.....1396...163......289....7.5746.....
......123......456......789...124......587.....1693...163......289....7.5743.....
......123......456......789...124......739..8..1568...1724.....435......896......
......123......456......789...124......837.....3956...264......375.6....981.....7
......123......456......789...124......837.....4956...172.4....489......536.....8
......123......456......789...124......659.....1873...157...2..392..6...468......
......123......456......789...126..4...385.....8479...194......285.1....637......
......123......456......789...124......957.....2368...1958.....268......473...9..
......123......456......789...124......389.....8675...147......632.....1985..7...
......123......456......789...124......837.....4956...1283.....547...6..936......
......123......456......789...124......675.....5389...279.....83564.....841......
......123......456......789...124......957.....2368...2358.....486......791...3..
......123......456......789...124......837.....4956...271.4....498......536.....8
......123......456......789...124......837.....2956...271.4....498......536.....8
......123......456......789...124......759.....2836...183......265..8...794...6..
......123......456......789...124......389.....9675...271...5..354......896.3....
......123......456......789...124......953.....4768...125...6..639......748..9...
......123......456......789...124......385.....1967...176......593....1.842.7....
......123......456......789...1245.....957.....9368...198......562.7....743......
......123......456......789...124......369.....2578...247......5314.....698....7.
......123......456......789...1248.....783.....3569...194..5...375......682......
......123......456......789...124......376..2..4958...295......371......648..5...
......123......456......789...124......837.....1596...1859.....726....4.934......
......123......456......789...124......375.....3896...362.8....458......791...2..
......123......456......789...124......386..5..4597...185......742......9367.....
......123......456......789...124......389.....2567...2516.....396......487...9..
......123......456......789...124......675.....6938...3612.....574.....8892......
......123......456......789...124......953.....5876...147......2897.....536.....4
......123......456......789...124......389.....8576...176.5....285......439.....1
......123......456......789...124......376..2..4958...259......371......648..5...
......123......456......789...124......568.....2793...287......369.....84512.....
......123......456......789...124......759.....2836...195..8...283......476...9..
......123......456......789...126......385.....1794...159......327....1.468..9...
......123......456......789...124......836.....8795...1376.....629......845..1...
......123......456......789...124......597..2..9386...145......376......928.5....
......123......456......789...124......759.....2836...283......476...9..591..8...
......123......456......789...124......785.....4396...298....7.436......571..3...
......123......456......789...124......736.....3958...176......352....4.894..7...
......123......456......789...124......397..8..4568...386......7412.....952......
......123......456......789...124......739..8..1586...1742.....592......836......
......123......456......789...124......796..8..1538...1724.....594......863......
......123......456......789...124......795.....1863...128....4.453......6973.....
......123......456......789...124......369.....4758...237.....1469..5...581......
......123......456......789...1245.....386.....6597...374......862.3....951......
......123......456......789...124......576.....2398...271.3....548...6..693......
......123......456......789...124......397.....9568...137......285.3..6.496......
......123......456......789...124......785.....1936...169......238....4.547..9...
......123......456......789...1249.....385.....5796...169......258..3...437......
......123......456......789...124......587.....4396...298....7.436......5714.....
......123......456......789...124......587.....5396...183......452..8...976.....1
......123......456......789...1243.....783.....8596...195......286.5....437......
......123......456......789...124......589.....9637...1253.....784....9.963......
......123......456......789...124......785.1...5369...137......486.5....592......
......123......456......789...124.3....369.....9785...138......527......946..7...
......123......456......789...124......795.....2638...253.8....491...6..876......
......123......456......789...1248.....837.....3569...395......762......8412.....
......123......456......789...124......687.....8539...165......742.1....893.....5
......123......456......789...124......853.4...1796...1879.....246......953......
......123......456......789...124......796..1..2853...1789.....264......935......
......123......456......789...124......936.....2857...127.4....365.....8894......
......123......456......789...124......736.....6895...192...3..538......674..8...
......123......456......789...124......385.....1976...176......593....1.842..7...
......123......456......789...124......857.....1936...157.4....263.....8489......
......123......456......789...124.3....369.....9857...196......385.7....427......
......123......456......789...1248.....738.....3596...395.8....761......842......
......123......456......789...124......586.....2739...287......369...2..451..8...
......123......456......789...124......586.....2739...287......369.....84512.....
......123......456......789...124......739.....7856...176......285.4..1.439......
......123......456......789...124......785.....2396...137...5..269......548..9...
......123......456......789...1249.....385.....5976...167......258..3...439......
......123......456......789...124......857.....1936...183.....2745..8...926......
......123......456......789...124......796..8..1538...174..2...592......863......
......123......456......789...124......796..8..1538...1742.....592......863......
......123......456......789...124......657.....1398...159......368....1.472..5...
......123......456......789...124......856.9...4793...139......258......7463.....
......123......456......789...124......739..8..1586...1724.....594......836......
......123......456......789...124......658.9...4397...139......258......746..3...
......123......456......789...124......936.....4857...245..8...796.....1831......
......123......456......789...124......576..8..2389...1742.....259......863......
......123......456......789...124......378.9...2569...174.3....286......935......
......123......456......789...124......783.....2569...286.5....491...3..753......
......123......456......789...124......658.....4739...1478.....386......925...3..
......123......456......789...124......397.....2568...196......275....1.348..9...
......123......456......789...124.3....639.....9785...1965.....385......427......
......123......456......789...124......598.....9376...1574.....643......982.....7
......123......456......789...124......683.....8579...1758.....286......439...5..
......123......456......789...1248.....873.....3695...395......761......842.5....
......123......456......789...124.3....693.....9875...1965.....385......427......
......123......456......789...124.3....693.....9875...1963.....385......427......
......123......456......789...1248.....378.....3695...395......761......842..3...
......123......456......789...124......683.....8975...175......286....7.439..1...
......123......456......789...124......683.....8975...175......286.5....439.....1
......123......456......789...1245.....567.....6398...149......2534.....678......
......123......456......789...124......386.....3579...147......5364.....829.....7
......123......456......789...124......579.....1386...148......279.....83654.....
......123......456......789...124......579.....1386...148......279.....86354.....
......123......456......789...124......859.....5376...153......647...3..829..5...
......123......456......789...124......587.....8693...1862.....249......735.....8
......123......456......789...1245.....386.....6579...375......862.3....941......
......123......456......789...1245.....573.....3689...149......2564.....738......
......123......456......789...124......739..8..1586...1724.....495......836......
......123......456......789...124......379..8..2856...271.4....495......836......
......123......456......789...126.3....347.....7589...174......385.9....629......
......123......456......789...124......398..7..4576...356......842..1...971......
......123......456......789...124......839.....9756...138......295..8...476...3..
......123......456......789...124.3....639.....9578...196......358.1....427......
......123......456......789...124......695.....1738...1582.....367.....4492......
......123......456......789...124......683.....8975...175......286....7.349..1...
......123......456......789...124......683.....8975...175......286.5....349.....1
......123......456......789...124......578.....1396...174......523.....1689..7...
......123......456......789...1245.....573.....3689...149......2564.....378......
......123......456......789...1245.....736.....3985...1746.....395......862......
......123......456......789...124......867.....1539...189......365.....8472.1....
......123......456......789...124......378.....3596...361...2..485......792..5...
......123......456......789...126......347..1..7589...185......274......6392.....
......123......456......789...124.3....639.....6875...169......358.1....427......
......123......456......789...124......638..5..4957...169......248..1...735......
......123......456......789...124......386.....6795...1784.....269.....8435......
......123......456......789...124......937..8..4685...195......472..1...836......
......123......456......789...124......386.....4597...291......3674.....845...9..
......123......456......789...124......583.....1697...176......5437.....892....4.
......123......456......789...124......576.....2398...271.3....548...6..639......
......123......456......789...124......658.....4937...1498.....386......725...3..
......123......456......789...1248.....837.....3569...1842.....395......762......
......123......456......789...124......973..8..4865...386......742.1....951......
......123......456......789...124......537.....2968...256.9....483......791.....8
......123......456......789...124......638.....8795...169.....7275......483..2...
......123......456......789...1245.....597.....9836...198......5627.....743......
......123......456......789...124......659.....5378...147......263.....1589..7...
......123......456......789...124......765..2..6983...129......345..1...678......
......123......456......789...124......795.....9638...253.8....768......941...6..
......123......456......789...1248.....378.....3659...186......395......472.8....
......123......456......789...124......587.....1639...153.....2629......748..5...
......123......456......789...1245.....783.....3965...194......382.9....765......
......123......456......789...124......756.....2839...183......265..8...749...6..
......123......456......789...124......659..8..4738...1452.....298......736......
......123......456......789...124......853.....1796...167......592....4.843..7...
......123......456......789...124......739.....3856...179.....8356.4....428......
......123......456......789...124......637.....7985...198......634.....1725..8...
......123......456......789...124......378.....4695...2835.....641...9..975......
......123......456......789...1248.....538.....3796...167......352.6....498......
......123......456......789...1245.....378.....3956...165......384..9...792......
......123......456......789...124......759.....5836...179.....8356.4....842......
......123......456......789...124......579.....2638...251....6.378.9....946......
......123......456......789...124......839.....2657...236.....5745.1....891......
......123......456......789...1245.....738.....3596...392.8....765......841......
......123......456......789...1245.....567.....6398...149......2534.....768......
......123......456......789...124......586.....2739...148...5..263.9....579......
......123......456......789...1248.....738.....3596...1723.....395......684......
......123......456......789...124......378.9...2965...286......471.3....935......
......123......456......789...124......596..4..1738...1582.....643......792......
......123......456......789...124......759.....2836...183......625..8...794...6..
......123......456......789...124......739.....3856...365.4....482......791.....8
......123......456......789...124......389.....2576...289.....73564.....741......
......123......456......789...124......738.....3956...1752.....239......648.....5
......123......456......789...124......397.....3685...192......346..9...758....4.
......123......456......789...124......678.....6935...135......648.....5729.1....
......123......456......789...124......389.....8576...176.5....285......349.....1
......123......456......789...124......759.....5836...198......536.....8742.1....
......123......456......789...124......759.....5836...172.4....356.....8948......
......123......456......789...126......378.....2495...271.3....684...5..935......
......123......456......789...124......569.....1873...167.8....428......593.....4
......123......456......789...124......863.....6957...1695.....427...3..835......
......123......456......789...124.3....396.....9785...138......527......946..7...
......123......456......789...124......953.....5768...251...6..369......748..9...
......123......456......789...124......953.....5768...251...6..748..9...963......
......123......456......789...124......835.....4769...163...2..285......749..8...
......123......456......789...124......637.....1589...165......389.....5742.1....
......123......456......789...124......7632....6985...169......285.9....473......
......123......456......789...124......658.....4793...1478.....325...9..986......
......123......456......789...1248.....738.....3569...395......762......8412.....
......123......456......789...124......857.....4639...157..8...832.....4946......
......123......456......789...124......678.....6539...173...2..649..5...825......
......123......456......789...124......983..1..4675...147......369......825.4....
......123......456......789...124......783.....2965...268.5....395......741...9..
......123......456......789...124......738.....3695...391...2..4865.....752......
......123......456......789...126......378.....2495...271.3....864...5..935......
......123......456......789...1245.....768.....6953...375......8613.....942......
......123......456......789...1245.....837.....3659...195......384..6...762......
......123......456......789...124......659.....2837...2813.....547...9..693......
......123......456......789...124......783.....2695...289.5....461...3..753......
......123......456......789...124......659.....9837...193.....42589.....476......
......123......456......789...124......597.....9683...1682.....425......973.....8
......123......456......789...126......3492....4875...168......395......427.5....
......123......456......789...124......639.1...4857...185......632.1....947......
......123......456......789...124......793..2..9856...198......256.8....473......
......123......456......789...124......738.....2965...268.5....395......741...9..
......123......456......789...124......7932....9856...196......258.6....473......
......123......456......789...124......785.....4936...189......247....1.635..9...
......123......456......789...124......739.....2856...175.4....236.....5948......
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jovi_al01
 
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby JPF » Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:16 pm

Hi jovi_al01

Interesting results!
As mentioned here, there are 5 B1B5B9 (or B3B5B7) + 3 ed-patterns.
Your 684 list can be split in 4 ed patterns.
Code: Select all
      M1              M2              M3              M4
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|...|...|123|   |...|...|123|   |...|...|123|   |...|...|123|
|...|...|456|   |...|...|456|   |...|...|456|   |...|...|456|
|...|...|789|   |...|...|789|   |...|...|789|   |...|..1|789|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|...|124|...|   |...|124|...|   |...|123|...|   |...|142|...|
|...|763|...|   |...|389|...|   |...|469|...|   |...|687|...|
|..7|895|...|   |..8|675|...|   |..4|578|...|   |..6|539|...|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
|136|...|...|   |147|...|...|   |158|..7|...|   |195|...|...|
|285|..1|.4.|   |632|...|..1|   |296|.8.|...|   |463|...|..5|
|479|...|...|   |985|..7|...|   |437|...|...|   |782|...|...|
+---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+   +---+---+---+
 7               669              2              6

if you have done an exhaustive search (I didn't check) it shows that the 5th pattern :
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|...|...|xxx|
|...|...|xxx|
|...|...|xxx|
+---+---+---+
|...|xxx|...|
|...|xxx|...|
|..x|xxx|...|
+---+---+---+
|xxx|...|...|
|xxx|...|...|
|xxx|.xx|...|
+---+---+---+
is invalid.

JPF
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby coloin » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:09 pm

Hi jovi_al01
Great work
All your puzzles are unique and we have another pattern without puzzles !
Its prompted me to revisit this topic from another angle ....

from your list of puzzles, removing clues there were only 17 21C puzzles [ and no 20C puzzles]
Code: Select all
......1........456......78....12.......457..2..36.....2.9..8...4.6......75.......
......1........456......78....12.......457..2..36.....2....8...4.6......751......
........3......4.6......789...1.3........72....3869...25..4.....79......8.6......
........3......4.6......789...1.3........72....3869...25..4.....71......8.9......
......1........4.6......789...123......45......7.8..3.1.3......285......4..6.....
......1........4.6......789...12.......457.....7.8..3.1.3......285......4..6.....
.......23......456.....1..9....4.......789.....265....174.......9....8..6.5......
.......23......456.....1..9....4.......789.....256....174.......9....8..5.6......
.......23......456.....1.8.....4.......879.....256....184.......9......75.6......
.......23......456.....1.8.....4.......879.....265....184.......9......76.5......
......123......45.......7.....124......76......38......6...9...482......7.1.....8
......12.......456......7......2.......397..8..468....35.......7....1...986......
.......23.......5.......789...124......6.3.....89.....17.......2...5....349.....1
.......23.......5.......789...124......6.3.....8.7....17.......2...5....349.....1
......1.3......456.......89...124.......78.....6.3....173...2...4...5....2.......
......1.3.......56......789...124.......78.....6.3....173...2...4...5....2.......
........3......456......789...124.......78.....6.3....173...2...4...5....2.......
coloin
 
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby jovi_al01 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:55 am

Hi JPF! Yes, I believe my search was exhaustive.
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jovi_al01
 
Posts: 98
Joined: 26 July 2021

Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby Robin122 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:29 pm

You think there are some very intriguing kinds of patterns, but I don't believe that proving these hypotheses would be very useful in real life. For instance, I believe it will be much more effective to know all maximal patterns with 2 free bands (the third band must consist of boxes containing 9 clues each; I believe there should be several hundreds of such patterns) than to follow the rule "Each 2 bands of any valid puzzle must contain more 7 clues." (Perhaps you recall my experiment where I tried to eliminate vertically symmetric patterns with 18 clues; if your rule were valid, it would be able to eliminate roughly 7300 designs from a total of 200000.)
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Re: Ask for patterns that they dont have puzzles 2

Postby jovi_al01 » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:29 pm

I hate to break it to you, Robin122, but I believe this is "real life." :D
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