The SUPERIOR thread
re: JPF/tarek #1
by Pat » Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:06 am
re: JPF/tarek #1
i needed just one duo,
plus box-line interaction.
how can this qualify as a "superior"
under tarek's definition??
~ Pat
i needed just one duo,
plus box-line interaction.
how can this qualify as a "superior"
under tarek's definition??
~ Pat
tarek wrote:here are two modifications of JPF's
They are superiors
JPF/tarek #1
- Code: Select all
6 . . | 3 1 9 | . . 7
. 1 . | 2 . 4 | . 5 .
. . . | . . . | . . .
-------+-------+------
1 8 . | . . . | . 6 9
7 . . | . 2 . | . . 1
2 4 . | . . . | . 7 5
-------+-------+------
. . . | . . . | . . .
. 6 . | 1 . 8 | . 3 .
9 . . | 7 5 3 | . . 6
JPF/tarek #2
- Code: Select all
6 . . | 3 1 9 | . . 7
. . . | 2 . 4 | . . .
. 7 . | . . . | . . .
-------+-------+------
1 8 . | . . . | . 6 9
7 . . | . 6 . | . . 1
2 4 . | . . . | . 7 5
-------+-------+------
. . . | . . . | . 9 .
. . . | 4 . 8 | . . .
9 . . | 7 5 3 | . . 6
tarek
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by tarek » Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:22 am
I rechecked them Pat..........
The first puzzle needs FOR SURE 3 Naked doubles & (one hidden double or a naked triple) AT LEAST to solve.......depending on how you solve it.... there also a chance for a an x-wing
The second one needs FOR SURE 1 Naked double & 1 X-wing AT LEAST to solve........
Both would score more than 3 & therefore were superiors........
Could you point out that 1 double that solved the puzzle....
tarek
The first puzzle needs FOR SURE 3 Naked doubles & (one hidden double or a naked triple) AT LEAST to solve.......depending on how you solve it.... there also a chance for a an x-wing
The second one needs FOR SURE 1 Naked double & 1 X-wing AT LEAST to solve........
Both would score more than 3 & therefore were superiors........
Could you point out that 1 double that solved the puzzle....
tarek
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re(2): JPF/tarek #1
by Pat » Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:30 am
tarek wrote:I rechecked them Pat..........
The first puzzle needs FOR SURE 3 Naked doubles & (one hidden double or a naked triple) AT LEAST to solve.......depending on how you solve it.... there also a chance for a an x-wing
Could you point out that 1 double that solved the puzzle....
tarek
well i saw the 5,7 duo in box 9
thus i got the 9 for r8 and for box 9,
and the 1 for r7
then the r8 4 must be in box 7,
so r9c3 = 8
then the 8 for r7
~ Pat
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by tarek » Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:51 am
hmmmm,,,
The hidden double in box 9, or the other in column 7 does solve the puzzle.......
Now both of these hidden doubles have a naked triple counterpart....
In the analysis of all puzzles, I (& I think other participants too)...considered that spotting a hidden double or a naked triple a more taxing task (correct me if wrong)..... & therefore you shouldn't spot the hidden double before the naked doubles........
what is your view on this Pat....did you spot the double in row 2 & decided to go for the hidden one in 9, which is easier ???
tarek
The hidden double in box 9, or the other in column 7 does solve the puzzle.......
Now both of these hidden doubles have a naked triple counterpart....
In the analysis of all puzzles, I (& I think other participants too)...considered that spotting a hidden double or a naked triple a more taxing task (correct me if wrong)..... & therefore you shouldn't spot the hidden double before the naked doubles........
what is your view on this Pat....did you spot the double in row 2 & decided to go for the hidden one in 9, which is easier ???
tarek
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"hidden" vs. "naked"
by Pat » Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:53 am
tarek wrote:The hidden double in box 9, or the other in column 7 does solve the puzzle.......
Now both of these hidden doubles have a naked triple counterpart....
In the analysis of all puzzles, I (& I think other participants too)...considered that spotting a hidden double or a naked triple a more taxing task (correct me if wrong)..... & therefore you shouldn't spot the hidden double before the naked doubles........
what is your view on this Pat....did you spot the double in row 2 & decided to go for the hidden one in 9, which is easier ???
tarek
sorry but i usually find the "hidden" stuff easier
~ Pat
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by tarek » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:08 am
hmmmm (for the second time
):
I think you have a point Pat......
All techniques used should be absolute..........
The only absolute techniques needed (whenever they occur) are the hidden triples & the x-wings....... the mentiened puzzle was one of the few
The rest are not abosolute........say for instance you spot a hidden triple before a naked double....then the naked double which I thought was essential is now redundant.......
This would just mean reviewing all puzzle in the superior list again
but as the number of techniques are not that many.....it should be doable....
I'll check them today....& report the results....
I don't think we should change puzzles now....but we can re-rate them & report the WEAKER ones.........
thanx Pat... the mentioned puzzle now scores only a 2 (which is less than the minimum of 3 found on the list)....
tarek
):I think you have a point Pat......
All techniques used should be absolute..........
The only absolute techniques needed (whenever they occur) are the hidden triples & the x-wings....... the mentiened puzzle was one of the few
The rest are not abosolute........say for instance you spot a hidden triple before a naked double....then the naked double which I thought was essential is now redundant.......
This would just mean reviewing all puzzle in the superior list again
but as the number of techniques are not that many.....it should be doable....
I'll check them today....& report the results....
I don't think we should change puzzles now....but we can re-rate them & report the WEAKER ones.........
thanx Pat... the mentioned puzzle now scores only a 2 (which is less than the minimum of 3 found on the list)....
tarek
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by ronk » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:23 am
tarek wrote:All techniques used should be absolute..........
The only absolute techniques needed (whenever they occur) are the hidden triples & the x-wings....... the mentiened puzzle was one of the few
The rest are not abosolute........say for instance you spot a hidden triple before a naked double....then the naked double which I thought was essential is now redundant.......
So "absolute" means necessary? Or "essential"?
Confused, Ron
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by tarek » Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:08 am
Pardon me for not choosing the correct words...
Essential is what I was after..........
So if a naked double becomes unneceessary after using a hidden triple for example......then that naked double is not essential......
I'm going to make minor adjustments to the solver to see how different the rankings would be if the above was noted...I'll highlight the ones which score below 2 & probably post a new ranking list.....
It may be harsh on some puzzles & it will definitely downscore some good puzzles...... but consistancy is what we're after
The following paragraph is probably only useful for programmer (skip it if it's not your cup o' tea):
The solver now runs 5 times, (you could make it 6 for box-line interactions)... the technique placed in the outermost loop that registers an eliminations Is essential (hence 5 times)....
tarek
Essential is what I was after..........
So if a naked double becomes unneceessary after using a hidden triple for example......then that naked double is not essential......
I'm going to make minor adjustments to the solver to see how different the rankings would be if the above was noted...I'll highlight the ones which score below 2 & probably post a new ranking list.....
It may be harsh on some puzzles & it will definitely downscore some good puzzles...... but consistancy is what we're after
The following paragraph is probably only useful for programmer (skip it if it's not your cup o' tea):
The solver now runs 5 times, (you could make it 6 for box-line interactions)... the technique placed in the outermost loop that registers an eliminations Is essential (hence 5 times)....
tarek
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tarek - Posts: 3762
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by ronk » Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:45 am
tarek wrote:So if a naked double becomes unneceessary after using a hidden triple for example......then that naked double is not essential.....
Whether or not the naked double is essential depends upon the chosen objective, either
- to find the sequence of simplest steps despite their number, or
- to find the shortest sequence of steps despite their difficulty.
- to find the lowest possible score, or
- to find the highest possible score.
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by tarek » Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:32 pm
well I actually started the thread, I'm extremely flexible on how to rank these puzzles.......
Simple, Now what is simple.......Pat clearly spots the hidden double before the naked double.....
Shortest.......
Some people go searching for the difficult first to cut corners.......
Therfore Essential techniques can guarantee MINIMUM quality & MINIMUM difficulty level.
I've just run the puzzles through the modified solver.....
The puzzle that Pat mentiened #084........can also be solved using one hidden triple without the need for a hidden double........
So in terms of consistancy & insuring a minimum quality & minimum difficulty level it scores a 0.
The only way as a programmer to see what techniques occur every time is to have 5x4x3x2 runs for the solver per puzzle....each run has the order of techniques changed........analysis then would not just tell of what is essential or not, it can then give an idea of relative essentiality of technique.
returning to the 100 we have now.......... The highest scoring consistant puzzle is Ruud's #021, However & whatever your approach is, you WILL encounter the following (at least):1 Hidden triple,1 Naked triple/Hidden triple.......,1 X-wing, 1 Hidden double/Naked triple......
You see now, I made sure with only 5 runs of the solver what techniques would definitely be used in this superior.
tarek
[EDIT: small correction... the naked triple is a Hidden triple with a naked triple counterpart]
Simple, Now what is simple.......Pat clearly spots the hidden double before the naked double.....
Shortest.......
Some people go searching for the difficult first to cut corners.......
Therfore Essential techniques can guarantee MINIMUM quality & MINIMUM difficulty level.
I've just run the puzzles through the modified solver.....
The puzzle that Pat mentiened #084........can also be solved using one hidden triple without the need for a hidden double........
So in terms of consistancy & insuring a minimum quality & minimum difficulty level it scores a 0.
The only way as a programmer to see what techniques occur every time is to have 5x4x3x2 runs for the solver per puzzle....each run has the order of techniques changed........analysis then would not just tell of what is essential or not, it can then give an idea of relative essentiality of technique.
returning to the 100 we have now.......... The highest scoring consistant puzzle is Ruud's #021, However & whatever your approach is, you WILL encounter the following (at least):1 Hidden triple,1 Naked triple/Hidden triple.......,1 X-wing, 1 Hidden double/Naked triple......
You see now, I made sure with only 5 runs of the solver what techniques would definitely be used in this superior.
tarek
[EDIT: small correction... the naked triple is a Hidden triple with a naked triple counterpart]
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tarek - Posts: 3762
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by tarek » Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:37 am
After revising my program to try insuring minimum quality predict what techniques to be used...
I am posting yet another version of the rankings, I'm going to number versions, which I would advise other members to do if the want to post their rankings......
What it means ?
1.As you go up the list, you are guranteed to get more hidden triples & x-wings no matter how your technique in solving puzzles is
2. The puzzles scoring low are not bad puzzles, but are puzzles that do not display consistancy of techniques on changing solving approach.
3. Low difficulty scores combined with a low overall score means that for some puzzles....solving them can be easy if you were lucky to choose the correct technique (ex. Puzzle #084)
tarek
I am posting yet another version of the rankings, I'm going to number versions, which I would advise other members to do if the want to post their rankings......
- Code: Select all
Tarek's rankings of the 100 superior puzzles Ver 4.0:
Rank Compiler Score Var Dif
001 Puzzle#021 (Ruud) 13 4 639
002 Puzzle#090 (vidarino) 12 3 954
003 Puzzle#075 (vidarino) 12 3 952
004 Puzzle#074 (vidarino) 11 3 1046
005 Puzzle#067 (vidarino/ab) 11 3 777
006 Puzzle#078 (Ocean) 10 4 647
007 Puzzle#050 (gsf) 10 4 514
008 Puzzle#088 (vidarino) 9 2 803
009 Puzzle#066 (vidarino) 9 2 707
010 Puzzle#098 (Ocean) 9 2 663
011 Puzzle#013 (henk) 9 2 644
012 Puzzle#077 (Ocean/ab) 9 2 593
013 Puzzle#096 (Ocean) 9 2 516
014 Puzzle#097 (Ocean) 9 2 515
015 Puzzle#095 (Ocean) 9 2 496
016 Puzzle#091 (Ocean) 9 2 474
017 Puzzle#093 (Ocean) 9 2 463
018 Puzzle#020 (Ocean) 9 2 449
019 Puzzle#083 (Ocean) 9 2 445
020 Puzzle#099 (Ocean) 9 2 436
021 Puzzle#085 (Ocean/ab) 9 2 426
022 Puzzle#092 (Ocean) 9 2 425
023 Puzzle#082 (Ocean) 9 2 396
024 Puzzle#043 (vidarino) 9 2 371
025 Puzzle#058 (vidarino) 8 3 972
026 Puzzle#031 (henk) 8 3 869
027 Puzzle#032 (henk) 8 3 696
028 Puzzle#080 (Ocean) 8 3 458
029 Puzzle#070 (Red Ed) 8 2 543
030 Puzzle#007 (vidarino) 8 2 472
031 Puzzle#005 (ab) 8 2 469
032 Puzzle#045 (Red Ed) 8 2 439
033 Puzzle#051 (Ruud) 7 3 536
034 Puzzle#033 (vidarino) 6 2 849
035 Puzzle#057 (vidarino) 6 2 779
036 Puzzle#047 (Ocean) 6 2 627
037 Puzzle#079 (Ocean) 6 2 461
038 Puzzle#049 (gsf) 6 2 428
039 Puzzle#087 (Ocean) 6 2 388
040 Puzzle#081 (Ocean) 6 2 353
041 Puzzle#048 (gsf) 6 2 329
042 Puzzle#038 (ab) 6 2 318
043 Puzzle#076 (tarek) 6 1 347
044 Puzzle#089 (vidarino) 6 1 267
045 Puzzle#100 (Ruud) 5 2 733
046 Puzzle#061 (tarek) 5 2 665
047 Puzzle#073 (Ruud) 5 2 640
048 Puzzle#055 (Ruud) 5 2 537
049 Puzzle#064 (ab) 5 2 517
050 Puzzle#094 (Ocean) 5 2 514
051 Puzzle#016 (henk) 5 2 449
052 Puzzle#010 (Ruud) 5 2 449
053 Puzzle#060 (tarek) 5 2 435
054 Puzzle#071 (Ruud) 5 2 430
055 Puzzle#009 (Ruud) 5 2 428
056 Puzzle#002 (Ruud) 4 2 565
057 Puzzle#026 (henk) 4 2 565
058 Puzzle#008 (vidarino) 4 2 419
059 Puzzle#018 (ab) 4 2 328
060 Puzzle#065 (henk) 3 1 853
061 Puzzle#052 (vidarino) 3 1 767
062 Puzzle#056 (vidarino) 3 1 687
063 Puzzle#027 (henk) 3 1 669
064 Puzzle#053 (henk) 3 1 639
065 Puzzle#039 (Ruud) 3 1 632
066 Puzzle#072 (Ruud) 3 1 541
067 Puzzle#025 (henk/ab) 3 1 538
068 Puzzle#014 (henk) 3 1 487
069 Puzzle#054 (Ruud) 3 1 480
070 Puzzle#042 (vidarino) 3 1 454
071 Puzzle#044 (vidarino) 3 1 451
072 Puzzle#017 (ab) 3 1 445
073 Puzzle#028 (henk) 3 1 444
074 Puzzle#037 (JPF/tarek) 3 1 438
075 Puzzle#034 (vidarino) 3 1 433
076 Puzzle#068 (Red Ed) 3 1 430
077 Puzzle#062 (Ruud) 3 1 423
078 Puzzle#086 (ab) 3 1 348
079 Puzzle#015 (henk) 3 1 326
080 Puzzle#003 (tarek/ab) 3 1 325
081 Puzzle#011 (gsf) 3 1 310
082 Puzzle#059 (henk) 3 1 281
083 Puzzle#029 (vidarino) 3 1 264
084 Puzzle#023 (Ruud) 3 1 236
085 Puzzle#041 (tarek) 3 1 233
086 Puzzle#001 (tarek) 3 1 217
087 Puzzle#069 (Red Ed) 3 1 214
088 Puzzle#024 (Mage) 2 1 604
089 Puzzle#035 (tarek) 2 1 279
090 Puzzle#040 (ab) 2 1 261
091 Puzzle#012 (gsf) 2 1 228
092 Puzzle#046 (ab) 2 1 188
093 Puzzle#063 (ab) 0 0 547
094 Puzzle#019 (vidarino) 0 0 386
095 Puzzle#006 (vidarino) 0 0 326
096 Puzzle#036 (Ruud) 0 0 320
097 Puzzle#022 (Ruud) 0 0 315
098 Puzzle#004 (ab/tarek) 0 0 310
099 Puzzle#030 (vidarino) 0 0 254
100 Puzzle#084 (JPF/tarek) 0 0 107
Score: Score according to the formula mentioned before
Var: Number of consistant batches of similar techniques
Dif: Difficulty according to my normal solver
What it means ?
1.As you go up the list, you are guranteed to get more hidden triples & x-wings no matter how your technique in solving puzzles is
2. The puzzles scoring low are not bad puzzles, but are puzzles that do not display consistancy of techniques on changing solving approach.
3. Low difficulty scores combined with a low overall score means that for some puzzles....solving them can be easy if you were lucky to choose the correct technique (ex. Puzzle #084)
tarek
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