The hardest sudokus

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Postby Ocean » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:51 am

ronk wrote:Ocean, nice find. Noticed some time ago that you "sequentially normalize" the clues. Do you use a program for this?

Thanks. Glad you liked the "Coral" puzzle.

Yes, I prefer to "sequentially normalize" the clues instead of canonicalize the puzzle based on the solution grid (which does not preserve symmetry, and 'gives away' the solution).

There are four levels. First level: The program reads a puzzle, transforms it by swapping digits, and and writes the "normalized" puzzle. The "transformation rules" are created on the fly, incremented every time a "new" digit occurs. Second level: For a symmetric pattern, try all pattern-preserving operations, and select the smallest possible sequence. Third level: For a symmetric pattern, try all operations that preserve the symmetry type, and select the smallest possible sequence. (Pattern is lost, but symmetry type retained). [Alternatively, select the highest sequence, and thereafter 'level one' normalization.] Fourth level: Try all allowed row/column permutations, and select the smallest sequence. (Pattern lost, symmetry lost). Because I'm "lazy", I did not fully implement all of these. The basic "level one" of course (fast). And "third level for full symmetry" (works ok also for many patterns with less symmetry, but care has to be taken). It is slower than level one by a factor ~200, but the speed might be improved at the cost of more complex code.

ronk wrote:Also curious as to your CPU and its speed. Or do you multitask on several?:)

Tried to find some info about the machines I use:
* Sun-Blade 1000 (3 years old. 1 CPU)
* Windows millennium (on a 5 year old PC)
* Windows xp (on a 1 year old PC - Pentium CPU, 3 GHz)
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Postby Ocean » Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:05 am

RW wrote:
ocean wrote:# "The Anemone"
# ER: "The Sudoku Explainer failed to solve this Sudoku using logical rules only."

I'm very impressed. Took you only two days to find another puzzle with that special feature...

Sudoku features are like minerals. They tend to cluster. While tarek found a diamond ore (tough starters), I came across a more soft mineral (gold ore? / easy starters) nearby. The Zebra region is rich in variety...

Thanks RW and tarek for analysing the "Anemone"!

More "stuff" was found in the gold mine. As a mine worker I can only deliver the goods, and leave it to the experts to judge if there is something valuable. Think I spotted a diamond or two, one pretty hard, but the tools broke when trying to measure its hardness...


Some puzzles with no gsfr - this happened to two of the "ER-10.0 puzzles", and four "ER-failed".
Only one of the ER-failed is a "pearl" (zero placements - techniques up to 10.5-rated but no placement).

#
# Six "Anemones":
#
001002000030040010500600700007000006010000030800000900002007001040050020000900800 # 6 8 99687 ER="failed"
001002000030040050500600700007000006010000020800000400006001009040030010000700800 # 0 0 258 ER="failed"(1;10.5)
001002000030040050500600700007000006010000030800000900009003002020010040000700800 # 5 2 99527 ER="failed"
001002000030040050600700800006000007010000020900000500003001006040050030000800900 # 0 0 258 ER="failed"
001002000030040050600700800006000007010000030900000600007001008040030020000500900 # 0 0 256 ER="failed"(0;10.5)
001002000030040050600700800008000007010000040900000500004001008020030010000600900 # 0 0 322 ER="failed"
#
# Five "Corals":
#
001002000030040050500600700007000006010000080900000200002001004080030010000900500 # 0 0 322 ER=10.0
001002000030040050500600700007000006040000080900000200002001003080030010000700500 # 5 3 99539 ER=10.0
001002000030040050500600700007000008010000030900000600008003001040010020000500900 # 6 12 99727 ER=10.0
001002000030040050500600700007000006080000040900000100004008003020030080000700900 # 6 3 99639 ER=10.0
001002000030040050500600700008000006010000020900000500002001004070030010000800600 # 0 0 258 ER=10.0
#
#
001002000020030040400500600006000005010000020700000800008001006030040090000800700 # 5 4 99549 ER=9.9
001002000030040050500600100007000006080000090400000300006007002090030080000100400 # 6 8 99690 ER=9.9
#

[Edit: Think I mixed the concepts pearl and diamond in the original post. The last reference is corrected from diamond to pearl, while the 'mining metaphors' are kept as originally written - hope there is no confusion between the metaphors and the more precise concepts defined elsewhere.]
Last edited by Ocean on Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ravel » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:09 am

Finally i finished sanning JPF's 163 puzzles. Over all it took me longer than the top1465 for 4+ step puzzles and i wonder, how much of the puzzles can be solved by pattern oriented programs (without using chains). 21 puzzles qualified for the list:

14: 16
10: 9, 13, 55, 57, 108
9: 11, 34
8: 15, 17, 20, 30, 32, 56, 72, 87, 88, 89, 95, 104, 152

Since i am very busy in the moment, i cannot update the list this week.

I also already checked Oceans first Anemone, which my program could not solve either, and Coral, which needed 16 steps. But i will need some more days for the ones in Ocean's and Tarek's lists. Oceans new list is easier, because half of the puzles cant be solved by my proram:) . So the question only is how to rank them (any suggestions ?)

It is obvious now, that for all those heavy lists my program is not adequate anymore. But as long i dont have or see a good alternative, i will try to provide ratings.
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Postby tarek » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:09 am

ravel wrote:But as long i dont have or see a good alternative, i will try to provide ratings.
Excellent........
I suggest that whatever Ocean is using...It should be tested for banned substances.........
The 0 placemnts diamond beats all my fluid drives. I was looking for that for a while now....that will FOR SURE be #1 (unless I find another 1:D )

My suggestions for rating.....Nothing really, only a temporary one .... the RMS unsolvable are puzzles that need colours in the proposition techniques....... When the program gets stuck ....Do it manually or post the PM grids(which requires the most complex guess) for the players to do it...hopefully it would be only that 1 step ....

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Postby ravel » Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:18 am

Ocean wrote:Some puzzles with no gsfr - this happened to two of the "ER-10.0 puzzles", and four "ER-failed"
I suppose without coloring - have you tried these options?

-B -q'FNP(FNBTHWX)V(8)-G' -f%Q

If you get ratings with them, they would give a ranking for now for those beyond RMS rating.

PS:
I tried it myself and got ratings 99859, 99909, 99909, 99858 for numbers 2, 6, 7 and 11, but "no-solution" for 4 and 5.
gsf, does it mean, those also cant be solved with coloring used for eliminations ?
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Postby gsf » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:35 pm

ravel wrote:
Ocean wrote:Some puzzles with no gsfr - this happened to two of the "ER-10.0 puzzles", and four "ER-failed"
I suppose without coloring - have you tried these options?

-B -q'FNP(FNBTHWX)V(8)-G' -f%Q

If you get ratings with them, they would give a ranking for now for those beyond RMS rating.

PS:
I tried it myself and got ratings 99859, 99909, 99909, 99858 for numbers 2, 6, 7 and 11, but "no-solution" for 4 and 5.
gsf, does it mean, those also cant be solved with coloring used for eliminations ?

the two that didn't solve with the V(8) expression above require Y cycles (~multi-coloring)
so this should rate those:
Code: Select all
-B -q'FNP(FNBTHWXY)V(9)-G' -f%Q

note that these explicit options provide ratings for puzzles that the default -qhardest deems non-solvable
here's the full rating expression for the latest -qhardest (not posted yet)
Code: Select all
 -B -q-G -Z'FNP4(FN)E(P<=9)V(2)||FNP(FN)E(P<=9)V(3)||
                 -XY+P(FN)E(P<=9)V(4)||FNP(FNB)E(P<=9)V(5)||
                  FNP(FNBT2H2)V(6)||FNP(FNBTHW)V(7)||
                  FNP(FNBTHWX)V(8)||FNP(FNBTHWXY)V(9)'

-B => batch moves to normalize counting
-q-G => no guessing (no backtracking)
-Z => stop with the first || separated constraint expression (left to right) that solves the puzzle
and here's the -f%Q output for the 13 puzzles which shows the rating and
detailed counts for each method applied, including Vn for the V(n) expression that solved the puzzle

99687_FNBTHP____C22.m/S4.da/F319.493/N1085.2454/B405.1082.384.30/T126.279.126/H147.238.147/P8.16.991.1.15.3038.14/M2.40.164/V6
99859_FNBTHWXP__C22.m/S4.da/F254.671/N297.1050/B70.164.54.25/T58.177.43.15/H27.66.23.4/W25.75.13.10.2/X209.435/P5.40.238.3.30.1136.19/M1.2.28/V8
99527_FNBP______C22.m/S4.da/F53.135/N318.737/B182.438.176.9/P2.5.365.1.4.893.15/M1.1.91/V5
99920_FNBTHXYP__C22.m/S4.da/F41.115/N79.128/B33.127.21.18/T4.16.4/H21.42.21/X71.126/Y13.23.2/P1.1.75.1.0.308.20/M1.2.34/V9
99960_FNBTHWXYP_C22.m/S4.da/F115.379/N125.295/B95.316.80.27/T31.88.23.8/H34.67.33.1/W15.64.9.6/X80.99/Y33.101.1.10.3/P5.19.111.3.12.606.21/M2.39.168/V9
99909_FNBTHWXP__C22.m/S4.da/F405.893/N611.1535/B294.851.239.91/T131.415.125.6/H284.554.282.2/W126.307.115.11/X536.992/P10.33.614.1.31.2946.19/M2.19.690/V8
99818_FNBTHWP___C22.m/S4.da/F847.1512/N1420.3824/B975.3367.828.426/T184.402.150.33.1/H247.479.243.4/W185.343.124.61/P11.52.1414.3.41.5213.17/M2.36.182/V7
99539_FNBP______C22.m/S4.da/F80.170/N256.771/B102.447.62.52/P3.11.223.1.9.621.18/M1.1.72/V5
99717_FNBTHP____C22.m/S4.da/F687.1218/N1042.2710/B594.1940.513.173/T240.540.240/H500.866.500/P11.50.980.3.40.3993.15/M1.1.92/V6
99627_FNBTHP____C22.m/S4.da/F122.263/N262.714/B110.351.100.23/T40.182.40/H185.418.185/P2.13.221.1.12.900.15/M1.1.55/V6
99768_FNBTHWP___C22.m/S4.da/F215.397/N700.1863/B345.1049.234.145/T69.218.42.22.5/H84.198.79.5/W78.229.67.11/P6.22.591.121.2037.16/M1.4.25/V7
99549_FNBP______C22.m/S4.da/F281.538/N343.841/B152.446.142.18/P4.10.344.1.9.1083.18/M1.2.26/V5
99700_FNBTHP____C22.m/S4.da/F676.1125/N1017.2612/B874.2498.853.71/T271.495.271/H291.512.291/P9.31.861.1.27.3940.20/M1.1.87/V6

if any puzzles are unsolvable with the above expression my solver will need
additional method(s) to solve with propositions (P) -- but guessing (G) will always work
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Postby ravel » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:03 pm

Thanks, gsf,

so i intend to rank the puzzles which my program cannot solve

(1) those that need multicoloring in chains
(2) those solvable with coloring in chains

and inside the group after the gsf rating.

This would mean that Oceans
(1) #5 becomes the new number 1, followed by nr 4,
(2) Arto's Snail, nrs 6, 2, 7, 1 and Anemone
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Postby JPF » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:56 pm

ravel wrote:Finally i finished sanning JPF's 163 puzzles. Over all it took me longer than the top1465 for 4+ step puzzles and i wonder, how much of the puzzles can be solved by pattern oriented programs (without using chains). 21 puzzles qualified for the list

thanks, ravel, for all this work.
I'm not sure that my puzzles will stay for a long time in your top 100, if Ocean, tarek and Arto continue to produce such incredibly "difficult" puzzles:)

For the fun, i'm going to post hard (what does it mean now ?) puzzles with 2,3,4 empty boxes.

JPF
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Postby JPF » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:25 am


2 empty boxes – same band


Code: Select all
ER = 9,2

 4 . 2 | 1 . . | 6 . .
 . 8 9 | . 5 . | . 1 .
 . . 7 | . . 8 | . . 2
-------+-------+-------
 1 . . | 3 . . | 2 . .
 . 7 . | . 8 . | . 3 .
 . . 8 | . . 5 | . . 7
-------+-------+-------
 . . . | . . . | . 6 4
 . . . | . . . | 3 2 1
 . . . | . . . | . . 9


402100600089050010007008002100300200070080030008005007000000064000000321000000009 # 9,2
026500400789040000500009008100700200060080000003002005000000869000000742000000050 # 9,2
562100800081030000900006000200500100050070090004009003000000001000000359000000480 # 9,1
010300900020080050749002000300600000060050030001004009000000124000000300000000080 # 9,1
010300900003080050749002000300600000060050030001004009000000124000000300000000080 # 9,1
047300500002040000138002007500800300070060020003001006000000260000000003000000974 # 9,1
002800000950060030183009000300500400060040010009001007000000568000000041000000900 # 9,1
340500600005020000007009002100900000060040030003006007000000056000000840000000709 # 9,1


2 empty boxes – diagonal


Code: Select all
ER = 9,2

 1 . 9 | . . 3 | 4 . .
 . . . | . 7 . | . 8 .
 5 7 . | 1 . . | . . 6
-------+-------+-------
 . . 6 | 2 . . | . . .
 . 2 . | . 4 . | . . .
 3 . . | . . 5 | . . .
-------+-------+-------
 4 . . | . . . | 8 . 3
 . 3 . | . . . | . 6 .
 . . 1 | . . . | 9 2 4

109003400000070080570100006006200000020040000300005000400000803030000060001000924 # 9,2
986001400100060020072800000008900000030050000500007000800000216060000840004000053 # 9,2
602004500001030090030900001003100000040070000500006000700000603060000905004000080 # 9,2
070005400901020030500100007008700000060040000100006000400000095080000103009000840 # 9,2
080001900005030060962700001006300000010040000200009000800000300000000170009000825 # 9,2
006002900503040070800700002007900000080030000600004000200000706070000080009000031 # 9,2
005006800480020070309500002003100000040070000100003000900000005020000040007000680 # 9,2
040005300950080020002700006006200000010060000500008000300000800060000407008000093 # 9,2
093002500400060080620100009001300000060020000800004000500000016080000250007000800 # 9,2
090002500400060080628100009001300000060020000800004000500000016080000250007000800 # 9,2
904003600070020040500800009006100000030070000100009000400000260010000075008000104 # 9,2
800002700004050060907300005009700000010060000500004000200000039080000120001000450 # 9,1
109003500006010080030800000003600000020070000900005000400000718010000420002000090 # 9,1
008004200050060090320500007002100000090050000800003000500000840070000003001000502 # 9,1
058002300400090060003600005006900000040010000200008000500000609080000032002000587 # 9,1
012003500304070060007400009001300000090060000200001000400000032000000905009000018 # 9,1
000008200740050060102400005001200000050090000600007000500000020090000400008000396 # 9,1
047006200800090010009800003004200000090080000300007000600000104080000730005000960 # 9,1
200006300050020080074500001005100000090080000400009000500000703060000005003000619 # 9,1
810005000002070050006900001003600000070030000400008000900000580050000104001000920 # 9,1
403007600008050010052900008007200000020010000300006000000000200080000491009000806 # 9,1
120006900030090000009700003007800000050040000600001000800000070040000108003000549 # 9,1
002006700400080000709100004006900000030040000100005000200000480070000952008000306 # 9,1
200005100059040020300700009005300000070060000900001000400000015060000040002000973 # 9,1
580009400020060050400300006009500000060020000700008000600000382040000010002000607 # 9,1
701003200050090070004800001007100000080050000300002000600000042040000900002000003 # 9,1
047006200800090010009800003004200000090080000300007000600000104080000035005000960 # 9,1
180006900400020010002800005005400000010050000300008000800000609020000730001000082 # 9,1
625008900017020030000900000002400000060070000300009000200000300070000190003000675 # 9,1


3 empty boxes


Code: Select all
ER = 9,1

 . . . | . . . | . 7 8
 . . . | . . . | 9 . .
 . . . | . . . | 4 3 5
-------+-------+-------
 . 5 . | . . 7 | . . .
 7 2 . | . 3 . | . . .
 1 . 6 | 8 . . | . . .
-------+-------+-------
 . 4 5 | . 8 . | 2 9 .
 . 7 . | . . 6 | 8 . .
 9 . 3 | . 4 . | 7 . .

000000078000000900000000435050007000720030000106800000045080290070006800903040700 # 9,1
000000739000000826000000000700008000608040000002900000200510000030009104019700600 # 9,1
000000800000000019000000763070008000984020000602400000008070090040603007100905002 # 9,1
000000073000000816000000400830005000097030000006800000008710009000063001200009040 # 9,1
000000058000000643000000920408001000930040000670500000060300080009020406200007300 # 9,1
000000204000000060000000835705002000230090000910700000070960002050400910020805700 # 9,1
000000040000000862000000703008003000057060000642500000001004307500180020024030080 # 9,1
000000376000000052000000908007006000890010000234700000060090500002600030008045000 # 9,1
000000592000000036000000100080009000390050000062800000006580007050070020703620800 # 9,1
000000074000000850000000061005006000906030000832700000050060012300001000040059700 # 9,1
000000520000000004000000860300007000294060000050100000002900030049510006003480001 # 9,1
000000706000000400000000239040001000205040000100300000903054007052003900470120005 # 9,1
000000486000000129000000700301000000065040000048600000800003000930060040600809005 # 9,1
000000027000000316000000950020003000816040000930800000200080030009700005040605800 # 9,1


3 empty boxes - diagonal
[Edit : added ]
Code: Select all
ER = 9,4

 . . . | . . 3 | . 9 .
 . . . | . 1 . | . 5 7
 . . . | 5 . . | 8 6 2
-------+-------+-------
 . . . | . . . | . . 9
 . 6 . | . . . | . 8 .
 3 . 2 | . . . | 7 . .
-------+-------+-------
 . . 5 | 2 . 4 | . . .
 1 8 . | . 7 . | . . .
 4 . . | . . 8 | . . .

 

000003090000010057000500862000000009060000080302000700005204000180070000400008000 # 9,4
000405109000020053000100067203000008070000040100000605400009000706080000029300000 # 9,3
000004000000090081000300564402000008060000020705000300309600000070050000008402000 # 9,2
000005070000060084000700290900000006080000010405000900792106000000080000018502000 # 9,2
000008100000070053000200090609000001050000030104000800208409000500060000043001000 # 9,2
000004063000090001000700250300000004080000070205000100006503000759060000010007000 # 9,2
000005092000020480000100700207000003090000040805000600570006000006040000100802000 # 9,2
000004038000020900000800760500000002040000070309000600600209000010030000085701000 # 9,2
000005260000090043000400057804000005050000020100000700390608000510030000407002000 # 9,2
000006851000080070000200004507000002010000060802000300008301000904060000071904000 # 9,2
000002180000030540000800093706000005090000000205000600003406000051070000002301000 # 9,1


4 empty boxes

Code: Select all
ER = 9,2

 . . . | . . . | 6 4 .
 . . . | . . . | 1 3 7
 . . . | . . . | 5 . 8
-------+-------+-------
 . . 8 | 7 . . | . . .
 2 . 9 | 8 4 . | . . .
 . 3 4 | 9 1 . | . . .
-------+-------+-------
 4 . 3 | 1 2 . | . . .
 . . . | . 9 4 | . . .
 8 . 1 | 3 . . | . . .

 

000000640000000137000000508008700000209840000034910000403120000000094000801300000 # 9,2
000000082000000309000000476097008000805370000300006000508602000710050000600400000 # 9,1
000000896000000054000000230050017000179650000000003000962030000007804000008569000 # 9,1
000000034000000709000000065504300000039021000020540000908010000150283000360400000 # 9,1

JPF
Last edited by JPF on Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ravel » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:18 am

Thanks JPF,

your patterns are most interesting. I found an hour now to update the list with your last collection and Arto's puzzle.
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Postby ravel » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:47 am

What i wonder is, how SE could solve puzzles 7 and 11 of Oceans gold list above (have no java here), when they need coloring.
My program could only solve nr 7 (23 steps), but i dont trace, if x-wing or UR1 have been used (thought SE only uses LC and subsets ?)
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Postby gsf » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:55 pm

ravel wrote:What i wonder is, how SE could solve puzzles 7 and 11 of Oceans gold list above (have no java here), when they need coloring.
My program could only solve nr 7 (23 steps), but i dont trace, if x-wing or UR1 have been used (thought SE only uses LC and subsets ?)

I think this constraint expression models your solver
Code: Select all
-q 'FNBT2H2W2P(FNBT2H2W2)-G'

with the exception that my solver doesn't support uniqueness
this expression fails to solve #11, so my guess is UR1 was needed
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Postby RW » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:05 pm

The diagonal pattern seems to reveal more and more superhard puzzles. I was hoping that this wouldn't be the only pattern with real toughies, so I started playing around with Ocean's #5. The result:
Code: Select all
..1..2....3..4..5...47..8....6.....7.1.....3.9.....6....7..1..8.4..3..2..6.5..9..
ER: 10.4, gsf: 99478, suexrat9: 720

I know this is cheating, it's very close to the original, but it's not entirely diagonal!:D And it's a new record for Explainer rating in a puzzle that it actually can solve!

For the gsf rating I used: -B -qFNP(FNB)V(8)-G -f%%Q -q. I first got 99840 with -B -qFNP(FNBTHWX)V(8)-G -f%%Q -q, but I figured there must be some unnecessary techniques in use and started removing letters. I'm not sure if this was the right way to do it...

RW
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Postby daj95376 » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:26 pm

[Edited:] Withdrawn. I misunderstood.
Last edited by daj95376 on Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby gsf » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:49 pm

RW wrote:For the gsf rating I used: -B -qFNP(FNB)V(8)-G -f%%Q -q. I first got 99840 with -B -qFNP(FNBTHWX)V(8)-G -f%%Q -q, but I figured there must be some unnecessary techniques in use and started removing letters. I'm not sure if this was the right way to do it...

playing with -q expressions on the command line is what the solver was built for
if you look at the --man output for -q under "hardest" it shows the -Z expression used for rating
-Z expressions are just -q expressions separated by ||, applied left to right

the -qhardest rating is basically 99v00 + constraint application counts
where v is from the V(v) -Z expression that solved the puzzle
so the -qhardest -Z expression has V(v) assigned 2:easiest to 9:hardest

when you used V(8) above the rating was automatically 99800+othercounts

so FNP(FNB)-G is is on the low end of the -qhardest expressions

anyway for this puzzle -qhardest should give a reasonable rating
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