The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby champagne » Fri May 28, 2010 3:16 pm

this is a call to rebuilt part of our history.

May-be "ttt" "ronk" or "allan Barker" could fill the following gap.

In that thread, I produced last year a list of "hard puzzles" with no SK loop, no Exocet.

I considered at that moment that file as my own list of "hardest"

Allan Barker came immediately with a new property, a kind of huge SLG of rank 0.

Many puzzles in that list had the same property.

Has anybody a copy of these posts ??

I erased my own files relying on the forum memory.

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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby ttt » Fri May 28, 2010 3:40 pm

champagne wrote:this is a call to rebuilt part of our history.

May-be "ttt" "ronk" or "allan Barker" could fill the following gap.
In that thread, I produced last year a list of "hard puzzles" with no SK loop, no Exocet.
I considered at that moment that file as my own list of "hardest"
Allan Barker came immediately with a new property, a kind of huge SLG of rank 0.
Many puzzles in that list had the same property.
Has anybody a copy of these posts ??
I erased my own files relying on the forum memory.

Perhaps, I think that you said for bellow list. But, after the tarx0104 solved (by me first :D) then we are still colBF2 326 and colefg colg182.

ttt

Code: Select all
500000080003000069006080003008070006100200700000004000007090000200100000040005000 colBF2 63
100450009400089000000100000000800005060000020007002300030000070002004600900000001 colh50 col0701-065
=====
000050009006000100080100040200005000090010030000207000001000800040001060900020007 tarekdb tarx0104
000050009006000100080100040200005000090010030000207000001000800040000060900020017 tarekdb tarx0105
=====
000000063000007009003090005005000090010002000700400800006030008020001000400700000 col0906 1190
003000700020400060100050300000082000080904000600000000700000100060800090005000003 col0906 1146
000000060000700059006090000008000005700002300010400000005080030420001800000007000 col0906 1675
000002005000000063003060009006050008010200000700400000008000050200007800040100000 col0906 583
000000080020000069009080000000070006010200700500004300006090030200100000040005000 col0906 1657
000000003070000069006090005009060008010400000700002000000080090020007800400100000 col0906 2323
000000063000100009006090050008000006070002000100400800005080030040001000200700000 col0906 2666
000000039070000060006090005005080003700400800100002000000060090020001000400700000 col0906 1503
000000063000700009006090050008000006070002000100400000003080090020001800400007000 col0906 2459
001000500000800060300050007090080000000490020200000600700000001060900040005000300 col0906 4450
100000005000000039005030800009050080700002000010400000000080050020007000400100600 colBF2 326
003050000000400090100000705080046000000908060002000000500000300020600080007000001 colBF2 7
003000005000400090100050700080046000000908060200000000500000003090800020007000100 col0906 2105
000400000000000039003090005009080006070200000100004000008000050200007800040100600 col0906 461
000700060000000059006090000008000005070002300100400000005080030020001800400007000 col0906 1078
000007030000000005003050080008000006070002000100400900006080090020100600400700000 col0805 28
040000039000000005003050080000060008070002000100400000006090050020701600400000000 col0805 774
003010005020400000100000700000208040080046000000000009500000001040600090007000300 col0906 2257
000004065000000003003060009009030008010002000700400000008000050200007800040100000 col0906 284
000000039100000060006090005008060003070402800010000000000080050020001000400700000 coly 245
003000005060800090100000700090048000000906040002000000500000300000600020007030001 col0906 1276
000000003070000069009030005003060008010400000700002000000080090020007800400100000 col0906 3939
000000009000002060006090005005060008700004000010200000003000090020007300400100800 colBF2 4314
000000080100200005006050000008030009070002300000400000009000030020700900400001600 col0906 4548
000001003000000090006090800008000009700002600010400500003080050020100000400007000 colefg colg182
000700060000000005003060009009000008010002000700400000008030050200007800040100300 col0906 388
001000500000800060300050007090008000000490020200000600700000001060900040005000300 col0906 5742
001000500020800060300000007040080000000096020200000400700030001000900040005000300 col0906 3526
100000005020400080003000700040860000000049060000000002007005100060900000500000003 col0805 col 857
000200080000000005006050000008030009070002300100004000009000030020700900400001600 col0906 3789
001000500080400020300000007040906000000042090000000008007030100000600080500000003 col0906 1171
000000060000700059006090000008000005010002300700400000005080030420001800000007000 col0906 3425
300050701090400060001070000080240000000090020000000806000000000060900080005000003 colBF3 10021
000002001300050040000700600500000002090040030006000700002100000400080000080003090 tax ONY
001000500020400080300000007060920000000040090008000006000005100080600000507000003 col0906 3754
000000030000200005005060009003090008070002000100400600008000050200007800040100000 colBF2 1991
001000500080400020300000007040960000000042090800000000000005100020600000507000003 col0906 2693
003010005090400000100000700040806000000042080000000009500000001020600090007000300 col0906 2002
003900000400020000080001600000008900000030050070600001005000003090700800200000040 tax dml-1
003010005020400000100000700040806000000049060002000000007000100080900020500000003 col0805 1622
000000063000100009006090050008000006070002000100400000005080030400001800020007000 colz2 957
003010005000408000100000700040002000000046080800000009500000001020600090007000300 col0906 7186
003050009400100000080007000030005008000030920000000060005060002700004000810000000 tarekdb Pl_Bl
000700069000000050006090000008000005070002300100400000005080030020001800400007000 col0906 961
000000039200000005003090080000050008070002000100400000006080050020700600400001000 col0805 730
300006704070001020005000800000602000000000000000719060008000500010200070400000003 tax tk-1789
000000063000001009003090005005000090010002000700400800006030008020007000400100000 col0906 1073
100000500020400060003000000040809000000046080000000200007000001080900020500070300 col0805 col856
======
500000009020100070008000300040002000000050000000706010003000800060004020900000005 tax StrmCkr
500000009020100070008000300040600000000050000000207010003000800060004020900000005 tax m_b_mef
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby champagne » Fri May 28, 2010 8:19 pm

ttt wrote:Perhaps, I think that you said for bellow list. But, after the tarx0104 solved (by me first :D) then we are still colBF2 326 and colefg colg182.

ttt


as far as i can see, this is what I expected. I start the "rating run" to check

thanks a lot

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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby champagne » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:16 pm

cancelled due to error

champagne
Last edited by champagne on Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby ronk » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:32 pm

champagne wrote:I started a search to see whether ithat patten could be eligible to the pattern game (one puzzle solved by singles) and I got that one

6.......5.9...4.2...3...8.....2.7.1.....5.....4.9.......8...3...2.1...7.5.......6 ED=11.8/11.8/3.4

My solver gives it a slightly higher level of difficulty than for the 2 first, but in the family of puzzles having the SK loop

Your find is isomorphic to the the m_b_metcalf puzzle you cited ... but you probably already know that.
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby champagne » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:10 am

ronk wrote:
champagne wrote:I started a search to see whether ithat patten could be eligible to the pattern game (one puzzle solved by singles) and I got that one

6.......5.9...4.2...3...8.....2.7.1.....5.....4.9.......8...3...2.1...7.5.......6 ED=11.8/11.8/3.4

My solver gives it a slightly higher level of difficulty than for the 2 first, but in the family of puzzles having the SK loop

Your find is isomorphic to the the m_b_metcalf puzzle you cited ... but you probably already know that.

I know that since yesterday evening, but I have for the time being a limited acccess to the net.

In fact, I suspected it when I saw a rating lasting hours, but I made a wrong manipulation when i ckecked for automorphism.

I rechecked later and found it..

I cancelled the wrong post.

Thanks

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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby ronk » Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:52 pm

ttt wrote:
Code: Select all
500000080003000069006080003008070006100200700000004000007090000200100000040005000 colBF2 63
100450009400089000000100000000800005060000020007002300030000070002004600900000001 colh50 col0701-065
=====
000050009006000100080100040200005000090010030000207000001000800040001060900020007 tarekdb tarx0104
000050009006000100080100040200005000090010030000207000001000800040000060900020017 tarekdb tarx0105
=====
000000063000007009003090005005000090010002000700400800006030008020001000400700000 col0906 1190
003000700020400060100050300000082000080904000600000000700000100060800090005000003 col0906 1146
<snip>
</snip>
000700069000000050006090000008000005070002300100400000005080030020001800400007000 col0906 961
000000039200000005003090080000050008070002000100400000006080050020700600400001000 col0805 730
300006704070001020005000800000602000000000000000719060008000500010200070400000003 tax tk-1789
000000063000001009003090005005000090010002000700400800006030008020007000400100000 col0906 1073
100000500020400060003000000040809000000046080000000200007000001080900020500070300 col0805 col856
======
500000009020100070008000300040002000000050000000706010003000800060004020900000005 tax StrmCkr
500000009020100070008000300040600000000050000000207010003000800060004020900000005 tax m_b_mef

champagne, as you know, a Sudoku Explainer rating (ER) has become a generally accepted rating for comparing puzzles. Most of the puzzles in the above list, your list, were apparently supplied to you by coloin ... by some means other than public posts AFAIK.

Do you have the ERs for those? If not, I'll calculate the second half if you do the first half.
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby champagne » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:13 pm

ronk wrote:champagne, as you know, a Sudoku Explainer rating (ER) has become a generally accepted rating for comparing puzzles. Most of the puzzles in the above list, your list, were apparently supplied to you by coloin ... by some means other than public posts AFAIK.

Do you have the ERs for those? If not, I'll calculate the second half if you do the first half.



Hi ronk,

In that field of hardest puzzles, I have two problems with Sudoku explainer.

1) Each rating takes between one and four hours (slighltly more if I am right for the last one, compared to about 10 seconds with my solver to have a feeling of the difficulty,

2) The ratinr given by Sudoku Explainer does not help at all to find a logic path.


Other providers of hardest puzzles are using other ratings (Q2 GSF for example) likely to avoid that difficulty.

More or less half of the list is made of puzzles not provided by coloin thru a private link. The SE rating should already exist but I don't no where.

Another problem is that that lot is a small part of a huge data base that I hope to grow within next months. I can not afford to rate the full data base and the next hardest to come.

Regarding that list, May be you can find what has already been done and I'll rate puzzles i got thru private link.

give me one or two days and it will be there

champagne

PS as thes puzzles are not in the list of hardest if you don't use SK loop EXOCET ..., the ratings should not be that high
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby champagne » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:14 pm

Hi ronk,

The puzzles I rated (1 full day of work for my computer)
As I expected, ratings are excepting one are in the range 10.5 11.3

champagne

Code: Select all
000000001060009030002030700400805000000006000030900080001000004050008090700000200 cola199 (gsf morph)ED=10.6/1.2/1.2
000000030000200005005060009003090008070002000100400600008000050200007800040100000 colBF2 1991   ED=10.6/10.6/9.7
500000080003000069006080003008070006100200700000004000007090000200100000040005000 colBF2 63     ED=10.8/10.7/9.6
003050000000400090100000705080046000000908060002000000500000300020600080007000001 colBF2 7      ED=11.2/11.2/7.8
100000005000000039005030800009050080700002000010400000000080050020007000400100600 colBF2 326    ED=10.9/10.9/10.1
000001003000000090006090800008000009700002600010400500003080050020100000400007000 colefg g182   ED=11.3/11.3/3.4
300050701090400060001070000080240000000090020000000806000000000060900080005000003 colBF3 10021  ED=9.9/9.9/2.8
000000030000200005005060009003090008070002000100400600008000050200007800040100000 colBF2 1991   ED=10.6/10.6/9.7
000000009000002060006090005005060008700004000010200000003000090020007300400100800 colBF2 4314   ED=10.7/10.7/9.9
000000063000100009006090050008000006070002000100400000005080030400001800020007000 colz2 957     ED=10.5/1.2/1.2
000000039100000060006090005008060003070402800010000000000080050020001000400700000 coly 245      ED=10.6/10.6/2.6
100450009400089000000100000000800005060000020007002300030000070002004600900000001 colh50 0701-065 ED=10.7/10.0/9.2
000000080020000069009080000000070006010200700500004300006090030200100000040005000 col0906 1657  ED=10.8/10.8/9.9
000000003070000069006090005009060008010400000700002000000080090020007800400100000 col0906 2323  ED=10.8/10.8/3.4
000000063000007009003090005005000090010002000700400800006030008020001000400700000 col0906 1190  ED=10.9/1.2/1.2
000000063000100009006090050008000006070002000100400800005080030040001000200700000 col0906 2666  ED=10.6/1.2/1.2
000000039070000060006090005005080003700400800100002000000060090020001000400700000 col0906 1503  ED=11.2/11.2/9.5
001000500000800060300050007090080000000490020200000600700000001060900040005000300 col0906 4450  ED=10.9/1.2/1.2
003000005000400090100050700080046000000908060200000000500000003090800020007000100 col0906 2105  ED=10.7/10.6/9.0
000400000000000039003090005009080006070200000100004000008000050200007800040100600 col0906 461   ED=11.3/1.2/1.2
003010005020400000100000700000208040080046000000000009500000001040600090007000300 col0906 2257  ED=11.2/10.8/9.5
003000005060800090100000700090048000000906040002000000500000300000600020007030001 col0906 1276  ED=11.2/11.2/10.6
100000005020400080003000700040860000000049060000000002007005100060900000500000003 col0805  857  ED=10.7/10.7/10.0
001000500080400020300000007040906000000042090000000008007030100000600080500000003 col0906 1171  ED=11.2/1.2/1.2
001000500020400080300000007060920000000040090008000006000005100080600000507000003 col0906 3754  ED=10.7/1.2/1.2
001000500080400020300000007040960000000042090800000000000005100020600000507000003 col0906 2693  ED=11.1/11.1/3.4
003010005090400000100000700040806000000042080000000009500000001020600090007000300 col0906 2002  ED=10.6/1.2/1.2
003010005020400000100000700040806000000049060002000000007000100080900020500000003 col0805 1622  ED=11.1/1.2/1.2
000000039200000005003090080000050008070002000100400000006080050020700600400001000 col0805 730   ED=10.9/1.2/1.2
100000500020400060003000000040809000000046080000000200007000001080900020500070300 col0805 856   ED=10.5/10.5/9.5
003000700020400060100050300000082000080904000600000000700000100060800090005000003 col0906 1146  ED=11.1/1.2/1.2
000000063000700009006090050008000006070002000100400000003080090020001800400007000 col0906 2459  ED=10.5/1.2/1.2
000000060000700059006090000008000005010002300700400000005080030420001800000007000 col0906 3425  ED=10.5/1.2/1.2
001000500020800060300000007040080000000096020200000400700030001000900040005000300 col0906 3526  ED=11.1/1.2/1.2
000000063000001009003090005005000090010002000700400800006030008020007000400100000 col0906 1073  ED=11.0/1.2/1.2
000700069000000050006090000008000005070002300100400000005080030020001800400007000 col0906 961   ED=10.6/1.2/1.2
000004065000000003003060009009030008010002000700400000008000050200007800040100000 col0906 284   ED=10.8/1.2/1.2
000002005000000063003060009006050008010200000700400000008000050200007800040100000 col0906 583   ED=11.2/11.0/2.6
000200080000000005006050000008030009070002300100004000009000030020700900400001600 col0906 3789  ED=10.6/10.6/2.8
000000080100200005006050000008030009070002300000400000009000030020700900400001600 col0906 4548  ED=10.6/10.6/9.2
000700060000000059006090000008000005070002300100400000005080030020001800400007000 col0906 1078  ED=10.7/1.2/1.2
003010005000408000100000700040002000000046080800000009500000001020600090007000300 col0906 7186  ED=10.6/10.6/9.2
001000500000800060300050007090008000000490020200000600700000001060900040005000300 col0906 5742  ED=11.1/1.2/1.2
000700060000000005003060009009000008010002000700400000008030050200007800040100300 col0906 388   ED=10.8/1.2/1.2
000000003070000069009030005003060008010400000700002000000080090020007800400100000 col0906 3939  ED=10.7/1.2/1.2
040000039000000005003050080000060008070002000100400000006090050020701600400000000 col0805 774   ED=10.6/10.6/2.6
000007030000000005003050080008000006070002000100400900006080090020100600400700000 col0805 28    ED=10.9/1.2/1.2
000000060000700059006090000008000005700002300010400000005080030420001800000007000 col0906 1675  ED=10.5/1.2/1.2
001000500000800060300050007090008000000490020200000600700000001060900040005000300 col0906 5742  ED=11.1/1.2/1.2
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby ronk » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:12 pm

champagne wrote:The puzzles I rated (1 full day of work for my computer)
As I expected, ratings are excepting one are in the range 10.5 11.3

Thanks, that was "quick", relatively speaking. :) Here are the ED ratings for the other eight. After you merge these into your prior post, I'll delete this one. BTW these ratings were produced by Explainer v1.2.1.

Code: Select all
000050009006000100080100040200005000090010030000207000001000800040001060900020007 tarekdb tarx0104 ED=11.0/1.2/1.2
000050009006000100080100040200005000090010030000207000001000800040000060900020017 tarekdb tarx0105 ED=11.0/1.2/1.2
000002001300050040000700600500000002090040030006000700002100000400080000080003090 tax ONY       ED=11.4/11.4/3.4
003900000400020000080001600000008900000030050070600001005000003090700800200000040 tax dml-1     ED=11.3/11.3/3.4
003050009400100000080007000030005008000030920000000060005060002700004000810000000 tarekdb Pl_Bl ED=10.6/1.2/1.2
300006704070001020005000800000602000000000000000719060008000500010200070400000003 tax tk-1789   ED=10.7/10.7/10.5
500000009020100070008000300040002000000050000000706010003000800060004020900000005 tax StrmCkr   ED=11.6/11.6/3.4
500000009020100070008000300040600000000050000000207010003000800060004020900000005 tax m_b_mef   ED=ED=11.8/11.8/3.4

[edit: correct ER/EP/ED for m_b_metcalf puzzle]
Last edited by ronk on Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby champagne » Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:47 pm

ronk wrote:.

Code: Select all
500000009020100070008000300040002000000050000000706010003000800060004020900000005 tax StrmCkr   ED=11.6/11.6/3.4
500000009020100070008000300040600000000050000000207010003000800060004020900000005 tax m_b_mef   ED=10.6/10.6/3.4


Hi ronk,

a new problem.

These two puzzles are very close and in fact have the same pattern.

As you know, I published a morph of the second one rated 11.8 11.8 3.6

We know that SE has problems with morphs, but I have never seen such a gap.

I am using the current version of SE and face no "un explained prolem" in the pattern gamer.

The rating for the first one is consistent with mine (ii.6 vs 11.8)

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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby ronk » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:38 pm

champagne wrote:
ronk wrote:.
Code: Select all
500000009020100070008000300040002000000050000000706010003000800060004020900000005 tax StrmCkr   ED=11.6/11.6/3.4
500000009020100070008000300040600000000050000000207010003000800060004020900000005 tax m_b_mef   ED=10.6/10.6/3.4

a new problem.
These two puzzles are very close and in fact have the same pattern.

Sorry, I somehow rated a different m_b_metcalf puzzle. :oops: The correct ED rating is 11.8/11.8/3.4.

I've edited my post above and double-checked the other seven puzzles.
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby m_b_metcalf » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:31 pm

ronk wrote:
champagne wrote:The puzzles I rated (1 full day of work for my computer)
As I expected, ratings are excepting one are in the range 10.5 11.3

Thanks, that was "quick", relatively speaking. :) Here are the ED ratings for the other eight. ... BTW these ratings were produced by Explainer v1.2.1.

Code: Select all
...
500000009020100070008000300040600000000050000000207010003000800060004020900000005 tax m_b_mef   ED=ED=11.8/11.8/3.4

[edit: correct ER/EP/ED for m_b_metcalf puzzle]

Ah, those were the days, the heady days. It was 'only' 11.4 back then. I peaked early.

Regards,

Mike Metcalf
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby champagne » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:37 pm

m_b_metcalf wrote: It was 'only' 11.4 back then. I peaked early.

Regards,

Mike Metcalf



It seems that at that time, the java machine was unable to go to the end. To-day, you get the final result in about 4 hours (on my computer).

This puzzle is likely the highest known rating for SE.
In fact, as it has the SK loop (and several rank 0 SLGs), it is still a "hard" puzzle but not more.

BTW, I tried to find a start for the pattern game using that pattern, but I failed.


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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby ronk » Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:38 pm

champagne wrote:To-day, you get the final result in about 4 hours (on my computer).

Since I'm an engineer, statements like that make my hair stand up. :( Everyone, is it too much to ask that execution times be normalized to ... 'T' GHz-sec? Then the rest of us could estimate execution times on our computers by dividing 'T' by our CPU clock rate.

[edit: 'Hz' was 'hz'; my apologies to Mr. Heinrich Rudolf Hertz]
Last edited by ronk on Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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