The New Sudoku Players' Forum

by **tarek** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:40 pm

briturner wrote:As a followup question, what do you do about variations with better scores?

This is very unfortunate. The 10000 2 option seems to serve in these puzzles to reproduce similar results between machines. I would have expected this to mean that this to be same over permutations of the same puzzle ... Maybe this means that the permutations in suexratt are not that random ???!!!!!

In this case, I would say that the lowest rating should be taken into account ... The suexratt rating of 2768 might mean that a downgrading is needed ....

Because it would be tedious to do all of this by one person .... I will run the program on the original puzzle but will accept & change the ratings if another user demonstrates that a permutation has indeed a lower rating.

I will also show the top 5 from each category for that same reason.

tarek

by **tarek** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:07 pm

Because of the lower Suexratt score of coly013 I ran several permutations of its closest conteder, tarx0134 under suexratt

Code: Select all: suexratt test.txt 10000 2 rating: 4566 , 3222 , ........8..3...4...9..2..6.....79.......612...6.5.2.7...8...5...1.....2.4.5.....3 rating: 4675 , 3331 , ..3.5..8.4..1.9........7....1...4.....8.2..6.7..9....2..2...6.8.......9.......325 rating: 4445 , 3031 , ........1......234.....456...7.......3...2..68.1.9......98......4...6..51...7..4. rating: 4580 , 3029 , 1...7.8.....6.2..4...3.......9..6..35...9.1.....4...2..51...9..6........987...... rating: 4376 , 2954 , 123......6.........59...1.....4...8.5...1.9....1..6..7...7........6.8..49...3.2.. totalnodes:226445003

until evidence of lower rates are presented ... the top list will change.

tarek

by **briturner** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:16 am

Greetings,

I realize I am new here, and not in your guy's league (my highest puzzles I am currently generating have Q2 ratings of only 97500 to 97700), but I have a suggestion:

For ratings, using the min-lex version of the puzzle to base the rating on.

reasoning:
you have basically 4 options for handling variations:
- Take the highest
- Take the lowest
- Take the first submitted
- Take the rating of a normalized version

Taking the highest encourages people to run various permutations, trying to get higher scores. This means lots of computing power used to improve the score without really generating anything new. My opinion is that this is probably the second best option, since if you do the effort , you get a positive result, but it is a bit wasteful.

Take the lowest discourages running permutations other than someone doing it to knock someone else down. This just feels wrong to me since the only motivation is negative, but it also means that anyone score can be degraded at any time.

Take the first submitted will cause people to hold out on submitting puzzles as they run permutations to try to get a higher score. Again wasting time without generating anything new, but now doing it in secret since they cannot release the puzzle while they are doing this.

Take the rating of the normalized puzzle appears to me to be the least wasteful and best option. Since ratings are somewhat subjective anyways, this at least provides a single puzzle a single score without wasting time running permutations.

The absolute worst idea would be to allow permutations to be submitted as a separate puzzle, which would encourage outright theft. No one is suggesting this, but I mention it to be complete with the options.

I did a quick test with the Q1 and Q2 rating, and found the it's variations much more acceptable (0.005% compared to 15% with suexratt).

also, is there a program or command line that can take a puzzle and generate the min-lex version?

thanks
brit

by **ronk** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:44 am

briturner wrote:For ratings, using the min-lex version of the puzzle to base the rating on.

Sounds very reasonable to me.

briturner wrote:The absolute worst idea would be to allow permutations to be submitted as a separate puzzle, which would encourage outright theft.

Permutations are not allowed. Determining whether or not puzzles are isomorphic (equivalent, permuted) is the biggest reason for row-order minimum lexicographical order canonicalization (c14n) in the first place. (dang, that's a mouthful)

briturner wrote:is there a program or command line that can take a puzzle and generate the min-lex version?

I use gsf's program, with the command line ...

sudoku -qFN -f%#.c test.dat

... combined with fgrep to find puzzles that don't already exist in a library.

by **gsf** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:45 am

one clarification on canonicalization in my solver
there are two minlex forms
-f%c : minlex based on the solution grid
-f%#mc : minlex based on the puzzle (subgrid) -- also allows partial puzzles
in general the minlex based on the solution grid algorithm is faster than the subgrid algorithm as the number of clues increases
the knee is somewhere near 20 clues if memory serves correct

by **tarek** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:10 am

ronk wrote:
briturner wrote:For ratings, using the min-lex version of the puzzle to base the rating on.
Sounds very reasonable to me.

Fair enough. Unfortunately all my database & ratings are based on the original puzzle configuration & therefore some work needs to be done. Will recompute for top 10 to bring out the top 5. This excercise is to calculate the top puzzle(s) so it shouldn't really have a major impact on the rest of the puzzles already rated & in the database.

tarek

by **tarek** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:19 am

Was compiling the database. The first victim was

Code: Select all: ..6.....1.7.4...2.....5.3...8...7........4.8.9.28.......1...5...2.9...7.3.......6 coly005

which is isomorphic to

Code: Select all: .....5..4.9.....2...6.7.3.....7..8....86.....13..8......3.1.6...2......54......9. tarx0068

. The database will be constructed to show non isomorphic puzzles, therefore only the 2nd puzzle will be in the database. The lack of an up to date database was IMO the reason behind some isomorphic puzzles appearing.

I'll post some notes with the database.

tarek

by **tarek** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:49 pm

This is my current database (HardestDatabase090115), sorted according to q2 rating

List deleted to avoid order confusion with recent updated form of list
1st line is the fields names
The database is missing the ER,EP,ED of many puzzles, therefore I will not show a top 5 for ER at this moment in time.

The Date field as well has not been filled.

Not all Sx9 or Sxt ratings are based on the row normal minles isomorph, only the ones in the top 10.

tarek

[EDIT: Database re-posted with cosmetic modifications]
{EDIT: List deleted to avoid order confusion with recent updated form of list]

by **gsf** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:13 pm

tarek wrote:This is my current database (HardestDatabase090115), sorted according to q2 rating

thanks
if you make this the first line in the db

Code: Select all: #!sudoku -c2,ID,PuzzleR,PuzzleC,Label,Poster,Date,Q1,Q2,ER,EP,ED,Sx9,Sxt

then my solver will be able to access the fields by name
other solvers could at least use the

Code: Select all: -c2,

to determine that the puzzle is in the 2nd comma-separated field

by **champagne** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:38 pm

tarek wrote:This is my current database (HardestDatabase090115), sorted according to q2 rating

Hi tarek,

Could it be possible to get it with puzzles starting in position 1 ??

I would see what is my up to date ranking for these puzzles.

champagen

by **tarek** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:07 pm

The database has been re-posted with the puzzle in the first column & gsf sudoku friendly 1st line

tarek

by **champagne** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:31 pm

tarek wrote:The database has been re-posted with the puzzle in the first column & gsf sudoku friendly 1st line

tarek

Thanks for the future.

I reshaped that one handly and I am runnng it.

I have to dig in the first entry. Seen by my solver, it has nothing that makes it eligible as an "hardest puzzle". Not even one of the specificities given by ttt :!:

No symmetry, no need to look for SK loop.

Either there is a bug in my solver, or it is over valued in the ranking.

By chance the list is long enough to include my hardest known, Silver Plate, but that one and Golden Nugget would have disappeared with a cut off slightly lower :!:

champagne

EDIT: I think I already checked that one when coloin submitted it just because he expressed a disenchantment when I got that result.

by **ronk** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:04 pm

tarek wrote:The database has been re-posted with the puzzle in the first column & gsf sudoku friendly 1st line

While you're still in the mood to honor requests

...

To make more relevant fields stay on-screen for human readers, would you please make [edit: PuzzleC] the last field :?:

BTW IIRC, if you replaced hyphens with underscores, your Pearly6000 entries wouldn't line wrap.

BTW2 I applaud your use of ",," instead of ",0," for empty fields.

by **tarek** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:48 am

ronk wrote:To make more relevant fields stay on-screen for human readers, would you please make [edit: PuzzleC] the last field

BTW IIRC, if you replaced hyphens with underscores, your Pearly6000 entries wouldn't line wrap.

I sense that there is a display problem which isn't present in IE7 ... because I used the [size] tags I managed to shrink the text to esablish 1 record per line (that is true even with 1024*768 display)

ronk wrote:BTW2 I applaud your use of ",," instead of ",0," for empty fields.

is that sarcasm

, I'll continue with it regardless

tarek

by **champagne** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:59 am

Hi all,

here some statistics coming out of the run of the database just published by tarek.
I run the file under several options
First one (column 2)is a kind of standard processing including the search of the SK loop.
Is given the processing time in seconds.

Column 3 is the lowest number I got for puzzles giving the higher time in column 2 under the following options :
Search of "bi bi" patterns
Forcing or not level 4 at the start.

Last column indicates whether a SK loop and/or a "bi bi" pattern can be found.
Two puzzles have both
A small number of puzzles have none.
I have not seen "symmetry", but the program has been modifed recently to include new "symmetry patterns" and it has not been validated yet.

EDIT checking first Item, i saw that I missed one double "bi bi" with two different targets. (I already saw double "bi bi", but with redundancy). May be I missed others

One can see that in the present status of the program, "bi bi" pattern have unclear effect:

Normally, if the "bi bi" is of the form 123 123, effect is very strong
( eg: Trompe l'oeil)
With the form 1234 1234, effect can be very strong as in Golden Nugget if some super candidates of the "bi bi" pattern are immediately eliminated.
If as in Silver Plate no elimination is found at the start, a more precise analysis of the pattern is requested. No idea for the time being what can come out at the end.

All puzzles not having the SK loop and solved in less than 3 seconds should be discarded from the list of hardest. They can be solved "easily" by a skilled player.
In the final list, it should likely be the case for puzzles solved in less than 3 seconds in the second column.

Code: Select all: coly013,coloin 1.4 BB r2c7 r4c9 r8c3 BB r56c8 r3c9 r9c7 colx062,coloin 2.8 tarx0037,tarek 7.0 SK BB r46c5 r2c4 r8c6 dukdiamond2,coloin 3.5 SK coly012,coloin 3.7 BB r12c7 r4c8 r7c9 tarx0035,tarek 28.1 1.5 BB r9c8 r7c4 r8c2 tarx0009,tarek 15.1 13.8 BB r46c4 r2c5 r7c6 tarx0105,tarek 56.2 57.6 tarx0104,tarek 58.3 57.3 Pearly6000-1803,tarek 9.9 SK tarx0006;Trompe_l'oeil 33.4 1.5 BB r3c79 r4c2 r6c8 tarx0064,tarek 5.1 Pearly6000-1802,tarek 9.7 SK tarx0012,tarek 3.2 BB r4c46 r5c7 r6c3 colx180,coloin 22.7 23.5 BB r12c7 r4c8 r7c9 coly002,coloin 7.1 BB r12c7 r5c8 r8c9 tarx0067,tarek 2.5 BB r46c5 r2c4 r8c6 coly007,coloin 4.3 BB r12c7 r4c8 r7c9 Pearly6000-2803,tarek 9.9 SK coly010,coloin, 2.6 BB r2c17 r4c8 r7c9 coly006,coloin, 3.7 BB r2c17 r4c8 r7c9 coly008,coloin, 3.4 BB r2c17 r4c8 r7c9 ultra0300;tarek 6.2 SK tarx0108,tarek 49.5 1.9 BB r1c23 r2c5 r3c8 tarx0119,tarek 63.5 1.7 BB r6c45 r4c3 r5c8 ultra0313;tarek 3.4 SK tarx0010,tarek 53.9 2.0 BB r6c45 r4c2 r5c7 pearly6000-3978,tarek 3.2 SK tarx0136,tarek 2.3 PlatinumBlonde,coloin 32.1 28.2 tarx0051,tarek 17.5 17.0 tarx0134,tarek 3.7 tarx0062,tarek 8.3 BB r78c9 r3c7 r5c8 tarx0141,tarek 12.0 17.2 tarx0068,tarek 16.0 18.1 BB r6c46 r4c3 r5c7 tarx0131,tarek 13.0 15.2 tarx0018,tarek 2.5 pearly6000-4143,tarek 4.1 SK pearly6000-4268,tarek 9.3 SK pearly6000-3802,tarek 9.2 SK pearly6000-3238,tarek 9.5 SK pearly6000-3112,tarek 9.6 SK ultra0203,tarek 4.6 SK tarx0005,tarek, 6.4 BB r6c45 r4c8 r5c3 tarx0004,tarek, 5.3 BB r5c46 r4c3 r6c7 tarx0003,tarek 6.1 BB r6c56 r4c7 r5c2 tarx0079,tarek 4.7 BB r9c78 r7c2 r8c4 colx001,coloin 28.6 27.7 BB r12c7 r4c8 r7c9 colx134,coloin 32.0 34.8 BB r6c56 r4c8 r5c2 tarx0114,tarek 4.3 BB r5c46 r4c2 r6c8 tarx0014,tarek 5.8 BB r13c2 r4c3 r7c1 TungstonRod,coloin 9.7 3.4 BB r56c6 r2c5 r8c4 Golden_Nugget,tarek 56.7 30.0 BB r12c7 r4c8 r7c9 tarx0052,tarek 2.5 BB r46c5 r2c4 r8c6 weekender1,coloin 56.8 3.6 BB r12c7 r4c8 r7c9 tarx0075,tarek 22.5 18.3 BB r46c5 r2c4 r8c6 CloudyBay,coloin 5.1 SK BB r6c56 r4c8 r5c2 tarx0001;Fata_Morgana 7.1 1.2 BB r5c46 r4c2 r6c8 Pearly6000-1847,tarek 4.9 SK tarx0002,tarek 32.4 2.3 BB r5c46 r4c2 r6c8 dukdiamond1,coloin 3.2 SK tarx0130,tarek 8.0 BB r5c46 r4c3 r6c7 tarx0140,tarek 8.3 BB r5c46 r4c3 r6c7 tarx0137,tarek 23.3 4.3 BB r13c2 r5c3 r7c1 coly004,coloin 4.4 BB r12c7 r5c8 r8c9 tarx0121,tarek 42.3 1.3 BB r46c2 r3c1 r9c3 tarx0011,tarek 7.2 BB r5c46 r4c2 r6c8 colx1665,coloin 4.3 BB r12c7 r4c8 r7c9 tarx0145,tarek 5.5 BB r5c46 r4c2 r6c8 tarx0013,tarek 23.8 1.9 BB r5c46 r4c3 r6c7 Easter-Monster,JPF 4.4 SK Pearly6000-1801,tarek, 33.0 21.6 BB r5c46 r4c8 r6c2 tarx0007,tarek 6.4 BB r5c46 r4c3 r6c7 coly009,coloin 1.5 BB r12c7 r4c8 r7c9 SilverPlate,coloin 67.2 77.9 BB r6c56 r4c8 r5c2 colx467,coloin 2.1 BB r23c7 r4c9 r8c8 tarx0008,tarek 53.2 3.2 BB r78c9 r3c7 r5c8 tarek071,tarek 29.6 29.6 BB r5c46 r4c8 r6c2 tarx0103,tarek 4.7 BB r5c46 r4c3 r6c7 tarx0139,tarek 3.0 BB r5c46 r4c3 r6c7 coly001,coloin 3.3 BB r12c7 r4c8 r7c9 tarx0059,tarek 26.1 23.4 BronzeMedalian,coloin 16.5 16.0 BB r6c56 r4c8 r5c2 tarx0061,tarek 28.6 2.9 BB r13c2 r5c1 r8c3 tarx0080,tarek 12.6 tarx0146,tarek 5.0 BB r5c46 r4c2 r6c8

champagne

The New Sudoku Players' Forum

The hardest sudokus (new thread)

HardestDatabase090115

Re: HardestDatabase090115

Re: HardestDatabase090115