The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby denis_berthier » Fri Aug 25, 2023 2:26 am

Paquita wrote:Hendrik
I did not understand why your new 11.9's were barely noticed, congratulations are in place! .

AFAIK, apart from the people contributing to it, the SER-hardest list has been used only by me.

Ever since I published [PBCS1, 2012] and the BpB classification of SER-hard puzzles, I've been checking the newly published SER-hardest puzzles - mainly to check that no one appeared to be beyond B7B, the frontier that has remained true for 10+ years.

After Loki was published, after I found it was in T&E(3) and after mith published innumerable puzzles in T&E(3), I concentrated my efforts on analysing these. I found that all of them are in T&E(W2, 2) = B2BB, the new frontier, and I published various ratings for them. All this involved months of computation time.

As a result, mainly for lack of time, I set aside my watch on T&E(2) puzzles. In some random check, I recently found a new (?) B7B by Hendrik.
But it's very difficult to do anything systematic about T&E(2) puzzles, due to the current mess about them. I'm totally unable to tell which are new wrt the ph2010 database. As any calculations involving them are quite time consuming, it's not very tempting to do anything about them. Also, now that CSP-Rules is public, it may be time for others to do these calculations by themselves if they are interested in the BpB sub-classification of T&E(2). The question of whether there's a puzzle in B8B is still open.
The worst that could happen to the ph database is to mix T&E(2) puzzles with T&E(3) ones.

Anyway, congrats to Paquita and Hendrik (and mith, of course) for all the new SER-hard puzzles they have found.
.
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby Paquita » Fri Aug 25, 2023 9:02 pm

Todays results, the ratings are by skfr now, I will update them when I have the PGE rates because they can differ from skfr

Code: Select all
98.7.....6.....9....7....5..4..3...5..95..6.......2.1...86..5......1...3.....4.2. ED=11.9/11.9/11.7
98.7.....6...5......7..98..7....64....43...2.........1.7...46.....1....5....2..3. ED=11.9/11.9/9.7
98.7.....7.....6....5.4..7.5...9..8...4..32..........1.5..8..4....2....6.....13.. ED=11.9/1.2/1.2
98.7.....6.....9....7....5..4..3...5..95..6.......2.1...86..5......1...3.....4.2. ED=11.9/11.9/11.7
98.7.....6...5......7..98..7....64....43...2.........1.7...46.....1....5....2..3. ED=11.9/11.9/9.7
98.7.....7.....6....5.4..7.5...9..8...4..32..........1.5..8..4....2....6.....13.. ED=11.9/1.2/1.2
98.7.....7.....6....6.5.....4...5.3...79..5......2...1..85..9......1...4.....3.2. ED=11.8/11.8/11.8
98.7.....6.....87...7.....5.4..3.5....65...9......2..1..86...5.....1.3.......4..2 ED=11.8/11.8/11.8
98.7.....6.....8....5....7..4..3......89..5.......2..1..65..9......1..3......4..2 ED=11.8/11.8/11.0
98.76....5..........7..59..4....78.....3...2.....1...6.5...97....4.7...1...2...3. ED=11.8/11.8/9.7
98.7.....6.....7....7.5.....6...4.3..2......1..95..8....68..5......1...4.....3.2. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....7.....9....6.5.....4..3..2...74..8.......1..4..86..5......4..1......2..3 ED=11.8/11.8/11.4
98.76....54.........7..59..4....75.....3...2.....1...6.9...87....4....1....2....3 ED=11.8/11.8/11.4
98.76....75....8....6.......4.....3...8.5.7.....2....1..9.7.6.....3....2.....1.4. ED=11.8/11.8/11.7
98.7.....6...5......4..93..5......6..7..8......9..24....1.....4....9.1.......1.32 ED=11.8/11.8/11.2
98.7.....6...5......4..93..5..8......7..9..6...9..42....1....3....9..1.......1.42 ED=11.8/11.8/10.5
98.7.....7...6.9....5....4..9.3..8....2.....1.....4.5..3..7.6.....8...7......1..2 ED=11.8/11.8/10.3
98.7..6..5...9..4...3.....94...5...2.1...8.....5....3...2.4..9....6..7.......1... ED=11.8/11.8/10.3
98.7.....7.6...8....5......4..6..9......3..5......2..1.9.4..7......1..3......5..2 ED=11.8/11.8/10.3
98.7.....7.6...9...5.......4..8..6......5..3......2..1..89..4......1...2.....3.5. ED=11.8/11.8/10.4
98.7.....7.6...8....5......4..8..9......3..5......2..1.9.6..4......5...2.....1.3. ED=11.8/11.8/3.4
98.7.....6.....5....4......7..8..9......3..4......2..1.5.9..6......4..3......1..2 ED=11.8/11.8/3.4
98.........76..5......7..4.3....9....2......8..15...6...4.1.6.....7...1......2..3 ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.7..6..7......5...4.3...75..2...8..6....9....7..3.....23....1....14.........5.. ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.7.....6..89......5..4...7...3.9....6...7....2....51.6..8.3.......1.4.........2 ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.7..6....5.6..7......4...4.....9...3.........6....25..1.7...6....5..17.....83.. ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.7.....6..89......5..4...7...3.9....6...7....2....51.6..8.3.......1..4.......2. ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.7.....6..85......4..3...7...6.5....9...7....2....41.9..8.6.......1..3.......2. ED=11.8/1.5/1.5
98.7.....6..85......4..3...7...6.5....9...7....2....41.9..8.6.......1.3.........2 ED=11.8/1.5/1.5
98.7..6....5.96........4.9.87..6.9....3.........8....246...87......7.4.........1. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....76....9....5.9.....4.....3...68..7.......2..1..76..5......3...2.....1.4. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....6..9..5....4.3....75....6....2....1.........3.6.8..7......1...2.....9.4. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....6.....7....7.5.....4...3.2...89.........4...1..98..6......1...4.....2.3. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....6..85......4..3...7..6..5....9...6....2....41.9..8.7.......1.2.........3 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9..8..7...8..6......5....4.6...9.....3.7..9.......2..5.9..3.8....4.....1.....1.2. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7..6..5...9..4...3..6..94.......3.2.6..8....8....5..7..81......2.........671.. ED=11.8/11.8/11.0
98.7.....6.....97...7.....54...3...9..86...5......21....68...9.....1.2.......4..3 ED=11.8/11.8/10.6
98.76....75.........48..97.8..9..46.....3.........8..24....6.5..7.5..84.........1 ED=11.8/11.8/10.4
98.7.......7.6.9.......9...8......5..4..3...2..16..7..5.......4.2..1..8...8..63.. ED=11.8/11.8/10.0
98.7.....76....9....5......4...6..3...85..6.......2..1..76..5......3...4.....1.2. ED=11.8/11.8/3.4
98.........79..6......5....7..5..8....4.3..5......2..1.7.4..9....6.1...2.....5.3. ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.76....5..........4..58..4....97....73...2.........1.4...79.....1....6....2..3. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....7...6......5..87..5....49....43...2.........1.5...94.....1....6....2..3. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....7.....6....6.95....4.....3...76..5......2...1..85..9......1..4......3..2 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....6..85......4..3...7..6..5....9...6....2....41.9..7.8.......1.2.........3 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....7.....6....6.5....4....3....9..2..1...59..8....96..5......4...2.....1.3. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....7...9.6....5..4...3..4..8...7.........4..2.1..6.3..9.......1.65.......2. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.......6.9.7.......5...4...6..3...2..96..........11...2...8.3.....4...79..5.. ED=11.8/11.8/11.5
98.7.......7.6.........59..4......3..2......1..86..5...3..7..4...68..7......1...2 ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.76....7...5.8....5....764.....3...2...4.....75...48..6.4...5...8...........13. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9..8..7...8..6......5..4...8...3.9....4....2.........13..6......7..9.6....2..1..5 ED=11.8/11.8/10.6
9876.........958.......4...76.......3.92..7...283..6..2.6....97.73...2.8......36. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...76.......3.92..7...283..6..2.6....97.9....36...3...2.8 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....7.....6....6.5.....4...5.3...79..5......2...1..85..9......1...4.....3.2. ED=11.8/11.8/11.8
98.7.....6.....87...7.....5.4..3.5....65...9......2..1..86...5.....1.3.......4..2 ED=11.8/11.8/11.8
98.7.....6.....8....5....7..4..3......89..5.......2..1..65..9......1..3......4..2 ED=11.8/11.8/11.0
98.76....5..........7..59..4....78.....3...2.....1...6.5...97....4.7...1...2...3. ED=11.8/11.8/9.7
98.7.....6.....7....7.5.....6...4.3..2......1..95..8....68..5......1...4.....3.2. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....7.....9....6.5.....4..3..2...74..8.......1..4..86..5......4..1......2..3 ED=11.8/11.8/11.4
98.76....54.........7..59..4....75.....3...2.....1...6.9...87....4....1....2....3 ED=11.8/11.8/11.4
98.76....75....8....6.......4.....3...8.5.7.....2....1..9.7.6.....3....2.....1.4. ED=11.8/11.8/11.7
98.7.....6...5......4..93..5......6..7..8......9..24....1.....4....9.1.......1.32 ED=11.8/11.8/11.2
98.7.....6...5......4..93..5..8......7..9..6...9..42....1....3....9..1.......1.42 ED=11.8/11.8/10.5
98.7.....7...6.9....5....4..9.3..8....2.....1.....4.5..3..7.6.....8...7......1..2 ED=11.8/11.8/10.3
98.7..6..5...9..4...3.....94...5...2.1...8.....5....3...2.4..9....6..7.......1... ED=11.8/11.8/10.3
98.7.....7.6...8....5......4..6..9......3..5......2..1.9.4..7......1..3......5..2 ED=11.8/11.8/10.3
98.7.....7.6...9...5.......4..8..6......5..3......2..1..89..4......1...2.....3.5. ED=11.8/11.8/10.4
98.7.....7.6...8....5......4..8..9......3..5......2..1.9.6..4......5...2.....1.3. ED=11.8/11.8/3.4
98.7.....6.....5....4......7..8..9......3..4......2..1.5.9..6......4..3......1..2 ED=11.8/11.8/3.4
98.........76..5......7..4.3....9....2......8..15...6...4.1.6.....7...1......2..3 ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.7..6..7......5...4.3...75..2...8..6....9....7..3.....23....1....14.........5.. ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.7.....6..89......5..4...7...3.9....6...7....2....51.6..8.3.......1.4.........2 ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.7..6....5.6..7......4...4.....9...3.........6....25..1.7...6....5..17.....83.. ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.7.....6..89......5..4...7...3.9....6...7....2....51.6..8.3.......1..4.......2. ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.7.....6..85......4..3...7...6.5....9...7....2....41.9..8.6.......1..3.......2. ED=11.8/1.5/1.5
98.7.....6..85......4..3...7...6.5....9...7....2....41.9..8.6.......1.3.........2 ED=11.8/1.5/1.5
98.7..6....5.96........4.9.87..6.9....3.........8....246...87......7.4.........1. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....76....9....5.9.....4.....3...68..7.......2..1..76..5......3...2.....1.4. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....6..9..5....4.3....75....6....2....1.........3.6.8..7......1...2.....9.4. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....6.....7....7.5.....4...3.2...89.........4...1..98..6......1...4.....2.3. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....6..85......4..3...7..6..5....9...6....2....41.9..8.7.......1.2.........3 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9..8..7...8..6......5....4.6...9.....3.7..9.......2..5.9..3.8....4.....1.....1.2. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7..6..5...9..4...3..6..94.......3.2.6..8....8....5..7..81......2.........671.. ED=11.8/11.8/11.0
98.7.....6.....97...7.....54...3...9..86...5......21....68...9.....1.2.......4..3 ED=11.8/11.8/10.6
98.76....75.........48..97.8..9..46.....3.........8..24....6.5..7.5..84.........1 ED=11.8/11.8/10.4
98.7.......7.6.9.......9...8......5..4..3...2..16..7..5.......4.2..1..8...8..63.. ED=11.8/11.8/10.0
98.7.....76....9....5......4...6..3...85..6.......2..1..76..5......3...4.....1.2. ED=11.8/11.8/3.4
98.........79..6......5....7..5..8....4.3..5......2..1.7.4..9....6.1...2.....5.3. ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.76....5..........4..58..4....97....73...2.........1.4...79.....1....6....2..3. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....7...6......5..87..5....49....43...2.........1.5...94.....1....6....2..3. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....7.....6....6.95....4.....3...76..5......2...1..85..9......1..4......3..2 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....6..85......4..3...7..6..5....9...6....2....41.9..7.8.......1.2.........3 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....7.....6....6.5....4....3....9..2..1...59..8....96..5......4...2.....1.3. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....7...9.6....5..4...3..4..8...7.........4..2.1..6.3..9.......1.65.......2. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.......6.9.7.......5...4...6..3...2..96..........11...2...8.3.....4...79..5.. ED=11.8/11.8/11.5
98.7.......7.6.........59..4......3..2......1..86..5...3..7..4...68..7......1...2 ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.76....7...5.8....5....764.....3...2...4.....75...48..6.4...5...8...........13. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9..8..7...8..6......5..4...8...3.9....4....2.........13..6......7..9.6....2..1..5 ED=11.8/11.8/10.6
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby denis_berthier » Sat Aug 26, 2023 5:57 am

.
Hi Paquita,

I can't use skfr because it contains x86 code which IMO disqualifies it for becoming a new reference.
After some tweaking, I could compile and run PGExplainer and PGXplainer (which is the same but with some fix for some cases of morphs).

I tried your six 11.9s with both.
With both, 4 puzzles become 11.8 and 2 11.7
Code: Select all
98.7.....6.....9....7....5..4..3...5..95..6.......2.1...86..5......1...3.....4.2.  ED=11.8/11.8/11.7
98.7.....6...5......7..98..7....64....43...2.........1.7...46.....1....5....2..3.  ED=11.8/11.8/9.9
98.7.....7.....6....5.4..7.5...9..8...4..32..........1.5..8..4....2....6.....13..  ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.7.....6.....9....7....5..4..3...5..95..6.......2.1...86..5......1...3.....4.2.  ED=11.8/11.8/11.7
98.7.....6...5......7..98..7....64....43...2.........1.7...46.....1....5....2..3.  ED=11.8/11.8/9.9
98.7.....7.....6....5.4..7.5...9..8...4..32..........1.5..8..4....2....6.....13..  ED=11.7/1.2/1.2

It'd be interesting to see if, conversely, some of your 11.8s become 11.9s.

I also tried the "real" SudokuExplainer. After a much longer time, the first 3 puzzles get the same ratings as with PGE and PGX. As I needed the full power of my Mac for other calculations, I stopped there.

Variations of 0.1 are not very important IMO. Having ones of 0.2 raises the question of how much difference one could have.


The SER has played a very important role in the search for hard puzzles and it's our only common reference. It will probably continue to play some role for puzzles in T&E(2), even if the T&E-depth criterion has recently become much more productive. BUT, as I said many times and as the above discussions about SER ±1 or ±2 show, one shouldn't grant SER more significance than it can have.

.
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby denis_berthier » Sat Aug 26, 2023 6:12 am

hendrik_monard wrote:AFAIK the current (informal) rule for the rating of new puzzles is that the SER, calculated on a new puzzle as first published, is accepted and should not be changed afterwards.
[...]
You [mith] propose that the SER should be calculated on the maxlex isomorph of a puzzle. This seems to be very arbitrary. The minlex or maxlex isomorph have only meaning for the detection of the novelty of a new puzzle. There is no reason to impose the SER calculation on either of them.
[...]

THIS BEING SAID, I understand your anxiety that rating 11.9 is rare and should not be accepted too easily. Perhaps one could consider to add, only for the 11.9 group, an additional rating that is morph independent. I am thinking of the BpB system of Denis. Anyway, I do not expect that there will be an explosion of the number of 11.9s.
Opinions on this issue from other members, especially those with experience from the early times of this thread, would certainly be most welcome


Thinking of a possible future version of the T&E(2) database:
If one doesn't consider SER as a God provided rating, it could easily be replaced by PGExplainer.
As the requirements about which version of the puzzle are contradictory, each line of the T&E(2) database should contain:
- its original version (be it only for respect of the creator);
- its minlex form (for novelty search);
- the SERs of both (EP and ED are IMO totally useless).

Considering the BpB rating, it shouldn't be restricted to SER 11.9. Some puzzles with SER 11.8 are in B7B and some with SER 11.4 are in B6B (see table 11.2 of [PBCS] and the comments following it).
As the BpB classification is universal and has a very precise structural meaning, this shows some strong limitations of the SER in terms of its capacity of making structural distinctions.
.
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby hendrik_monard » Sat Aug 26, 2023 8:39 am

denis_berthier wrote:
Thinking of a possible future version of the T&E(2) database:
If one doesn't consider SER as a God provided rating, it could easily be replaced by PGExplainer.
As the requirements about which version of the puzzle are contradictory, each line of the T&E(2) database should contain:
- its original version (be it only for respect of the creator);
- its minlex form (for novelty search);
- the SERs of both (EP and ED are IMO totally useless).

Considering the BpB rating, it shouldn't be restricted to SER 11.9. Some puzzles with SER 11.8 are in B7B and some with SER 11.4 are in B6B (see table 11.2 of [PBCS] and the comments following it).
As the BpB classification is universal and has a very precise structural meaning, this shows some strong limitations of the SER in terms of its capacity of making structural distinctions.
.

Hi Denis,

Thank you for this clever analysis. I could also support your suggestions for a possible future version for the T&E(2) database.
However, if for whatever reason your suggestion would not be acceptable for other members, it should be made clear what the criteria are for accepting new puzzles in the SER11.9 group.
As I said in a previous post, using one previously defined morph for calculating the SER would not result in a more selective process and make it rather look like a lottery.
One could consider a more neutral and more selective process based on at least three previously defined morphs:
1. the puzzle minlex
2. the solution minlex of the puzzle
3. the puzzle maxlex
These three morphs can be obtained with readily available tools. The puzzle should score 11.9 for each of them.
It would even be better if a fourth morph could be added: the solution maxlex of the puzzle. But I am not sure if there is an easy to use tool for that. And then the following question could arise: who will be the judge? Your concept for a possible future version of the database for T&E(2) would from that point of view be preferable.

BTW, in a previous post you mentioned that you recently identified score B7B for one of my 11.9s. Which one was it ?
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Postby 1to9only » Sat Aug 26, 2023 8:58 am

denis_berthier wrote:.
I also tried the "real" SudokuExplainer. After a much longer time, the first 3 puzzles get the same ratings as with PGE and PGX. As I needed the full power of my Mac for other calculations, I stopped there.

IMO, the "real" SE should not be used unless you have an abundance of free time!!
PGE is/should be exactly same as SE (with same bugs!) and is (on average) about 3 times faster than SE.
PGX should be used as it always gives with same rating for the same puzzle.
The choice of which one to use is yours to make...
Last edited by 1to9only on Wed Aug 30, 2023 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby JPF » Sat Aug 26, 2023 9:23 am

One can endlessly debate the best rating to apply, but it seems to me that the first priority is to ensure that a list being evaluated consists of non-equivalent puzzles.
In Paquita's list, 48 out of 98 are duplicates (i.e. equivalent); in denis_berthier's list, 3 out of 6 are duplicates.

If by any chance the chosen rating system is not independent of the selected isomorph (which doesn't seem to be the case for PGX), one can simply agree to define a puzzle's rating based on its gsf-minlex.
That will save time.

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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby denis_berthier » Sat Aug 26, 2023 9:31 am

JPF wrote:One can endlessly debate the best rating to apply, but it seems to me that the first priority is to ensure that a list being evaluated consists of non-equivalent puzzles.

Right. But this supposes one has some piece of commonly agreed upon software to produce a canonical form. And this supposes this software doesn't contain abstruse x86 code and can easily be compiled on any machine. Can you name one?

JPF wrote:In Paquita's list, 48 out of 98 are duplicates (i.e. equivalent); in denis_berthier's list, 3 out of 6 are duplicates.

There's no denis_berthier's list. I just tried the first 6 of Paquita's list. ;)
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Re:

Postby denis_berthier » Sat Aug 26, 2023 9:33 am

1to9only wrote:
denis_berthier wrote:.I also tried the "real" SudokuExplainer. After a much longer time, the first 3 puzzles get the same ratings as with PGE and PGX. As I needed the full power of my Mac for other calculations, I stopped there.

IMO, the "real" SE should not be used unless you have an abundance of free time!!
PGE is/should be exactly same as SE (with same bugs!) and is about 3 times faster than SE.

OK for me
1to9only wrote:PGX should be used as it always rates, with same ratings given for the same puzzle and morphs even after renumbering.

Is that really sure. I thought mith had provided counterexamples.
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby denis_berthier » Sat Aug 26, 2023 9:45 am

hendrik_monard wrote:it should be made clear what the criteria are for accepting new puzzles in the SER11.9 group.
As I said in a previous post, using one previously defined morph for calculating the SER would not result in a more selective process and make it rather look like a lottery.
One could consider a more neutral and more selective process based on at least three previously defined morphs:
1. the puzzle minlex
2. the solution minlex of the puzzle
3. the puzzle maxlex
These three morphs can be obtained with readily available tools. The puzzle should score 11.9 for each of them.
It would even be better if a fourth morph could be added: the solution maxlex of the puzzle. But I am not sure if there is an easy to use tool for that. And then the following question could arise: who will be the judge? Your concept for a possible future version of the database for T&E(2) would from that point of view be preferable.

What about the original form?
And again, limiting our considerations to 11.9 is much too restrictive.

hendrik_monard wrote:BTW, in a previous post you mentioned that you recently identified score B7B for one of my 11.9s. Which one was it ?

Oh, Jeez, the question I didn't want! I have to search my recent results (it may have been while I tested the compatibility of my solve-knowing-solution function with T&E). Give me some time.

The precise content of the future T&E(2) database will largely depend on who is going to take care of it. So, the first question should be: who wants to do it? There's a lot of work to do. But we haven't seen many candidates until now - errr, precisely 0. I'll support anyone (already known on this forum) willing to do it.
.
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby hendrik_monard » Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:51 pm

denis_berthier wrote:The precise content of the future T&E(2) database will largely depend on who is going to take care of it. So, the first question should be: who wants to do it? There's a lot of work to do. But we haven't seen many candidates until now - errr, precisely 0. I'll support anyone (already known on this forum) willing to do it.
.


On the 10th of August, I posted a motivated proposal about this issue: see http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/the-hardest-sudokus-new-thread-t6539-1395.html#p337247
I envisaged a database limited to SER11.6+ puzzles. In the mean time, the situation has developed further. There is the question about recognition of 11.9 puzzles, the anticipated long lists of minimals for 11.6 and 11.7, the rapid sequence of lists submitted with duplicates and provisional skfr ratings. I must admit that I am getting difficulties keeping my local database up to date. So I'm afraid that it would not be wise for me to confirm my willingness for keeping up a 'central database'. I am not a programmer, nor a mathematician. My work horse is a laptop from 2016 with i3 processor and 4 GB RAM memory. My age (76) is also a reason for not engaging anymore in long term responsibilities. But as I put it at the end of my post of 10 August (referenced above), I would be glad to contribute to such a database if that can be useful.
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby mith » Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:23 pm

I am planning to at least post an update to the ph database with what I have; it's just going to take some time.

The existing ph2010 has puzzles as low as 10.2 SER (SER was not the sole criteria for inclusion originally). If I were to use that as the cutoff, I have 4071373 puzzles rated at SER 10.2+ (up from 3103972 in ph2010), but a total of 32826692 puzzles with SER or skfr_ER 10.2+.

(And that's not including the te3 puzzles, for the most part; there were only a couple hundred IIRC in the original batch pulled from my local ph databases. I should also note that it's possible there are more; I only checked down to SER 11.3. Eventually I will run the depth check on the old database just to make sure I'm not missing any, but I have almost certainly generated the lower rated ones again anyway.)

If I were to use SER 11+ as a cutoff, I have 1969626 (up from 1165478) rated with SER, and a total of 3897548 for SER or skfr_ER.

At 11.6+ it's much more reasonable for the old database; only 9897 SER 11.6+ there (another 48 with skfr_ER 11.6+, with most rating SER 11.5, a few 11.4s). This is dwarfed by the te3 database, with 231990 expanded forms at SER 11.6+, never mind minimals.

The problem with 11.6 as a cutoff is that the rating value for "level" vs. the rating value for nodes is arbitrary and there is significant overlap in this range. Most 11.6+ puzzles are in DFC+DFC, but there are a handful of DFC+MFC puzzles this high (including two at 11.7 with over twice as many nodes as the most complex 11.9, though of course it's possible there are some lower rated DFC+DFC chains which would bypass this) and some DFC+DFC puzzles lower (including two at 11.2). A pure SER cutoff doesn't really make sense at the highest levels.

1to9only wrote:PGX should be used as it always rates, with same ratings given for the same puzzle and morphs even after renumbering.


Did you try running the morphs provided for the Loki-tree puzzles? previous post

That issue aside, I would happily re-rate the puzzles with PGX, but it's going to take some time given the number of puzzles!
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Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby Paquita » Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:47 pm

Yes I made the same mistake twice, to post doubles. Sorry for the inconvenience, I hope I fixed it out of my scripts now.

I have PGE rates for some puzzles now. Indeed the 11.9s become 11.8, but some new 11.9's popped up that were 11.8 in skfr. I am now busy rating them in minlex, according to Hendriks suggestion. What is meant by the solution minlex and the solution maxlex? I only have the maxlex form to start with. It may have been a different form when I found it but I don't keep those.

PGE rates, replacing those puzzles I published before in the last few days (not all have been PGE rated yet, the rest will follow)

Code: Select all
98.7.....7.....6....6.5.....4...5.3...79..5......2...1..85..9......1...4.....3.2. ED=11.9/11.9/11.8
98.7.....6.....87...7.....5.4..3.5....65...9......2..1..86...5.....1.3.......4..2 ED=11.9/11.9/11.6
98.7.....6.....8....5....7..4..3......89..5.......2..1..65..9......1..3......4..2 ED=11.9/11.9/11.3
98.76....5..........7..59..4....78.....3...2.....1...6.5...97....4.7...1...2...3. ED=11.9/11.9/9.9
98.7.....6.....7....7.5.....6...4.3..2......1..95..8....68..5......1...4.....3.2. ED=11.9/1.2/1.2
987......6..54.............37.82.6..2.86...73.9.........3....62.....67.8.....239. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
987......6..54.............37.82.6..2.86...73.9........6...239...3.....2.....67.8 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
987......6..54.............37.82.6..2.86...73.9........6...27.8.2...639...3.....2 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
987......6..54.............37.82.6..2.86...73..9.......9...27.8.2...639...3.....2 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98765.......4..........3...8.57.692..9.2..7...2.....686...2.89.2...6..57.5....... ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.64.5.....4.896..6...9....5...74.9....6.8...4.7...8.....8....9.......32 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.64.5.....4.896..6...9....5...74.96.....8...4.7...8.....8....9.......32 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.76....7.6..58...45.9.6..65..4.....978...4...46.....5.......4...97.5.........32 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.....6...4.....7.6.9..5..447...6.8..58...96...4.7.......32.........489. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........95........4...83.2..9..2..3...87..6......79....6.33.2.6.8...68....92 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...83.2...9.2..3..7.8..6......79....36.3.2.6.....68...2.9 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.....6...4.....7.6.9..5..447...6.8..58...96....32.4......7.........489. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........95........4...83.2..9..2..3.6.87..6......79....6.33.2...8...68....92 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...83.2...9.2..3.67.8..6......79....36.3.2.......68...2.9 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54.8....64..98..8...74.9.5...9.......5.6...4.7...6.....6....9.......32 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........95........4...89....63.3.2.6.7....6....2973.2..9..2..3...87.68...... ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........95........4...89....63.3.2...7....6....2973.2..9..2..3.6.87.68...... ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54..8...64..8...8...74.9.5...9.......5.6...4.7...6.....6....9.......32 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........95........4...8.....63..32.6.7....6....296.8......37.2..9...2.3...87 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........95........4...8.....63..32...7....6....296.8......37.2..9...2.3.6.87 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...86....39.7.....2.6.32.6....67.......2.83....9..32..78. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.....6...4.....7.65.....844.9..6..5..8..596...4.7.......32.........489. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54..8...64.58...8...74.955...9.........6...4.7...6.....6....9.......32 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...86....39.7.....2.6.32......67.......2.83....9..32.678. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.....6...4.....7.65.....844.9..6..5..8..596....32.4......7.........489. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.6.54....549......9.4...7..4768......5.9.....68....9....8...3.........2 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5..9.6...4......6..98....5..4.7....78.56..4.9..........8...39.......2. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
987......65.43..........6..87.9...65......8.9......27.7....5...52...97.8.68..2... ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
987......65.43.......9..6..87..9..65......8.9......27.7....5...52....7.8.68..2... ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........5.9.......4...67...938.2.8....9..3....2.7.932..87..2.3..6....6...... ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98765.......4..........3...8.57.692.2......68.9.2..7..72..6.89.6...2..57.5....... ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98765.......4..........3...8.62..7...957..82..2.....695........27..6.98..6..2..57 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98765.......4..........3...8.57.692..9.2..7...2.....686...2..572...6.89..5....... ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........5.9.......4...67...938.2.8....9...3...2.7.392..87..2.3..6....6...... ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........5.9.......4...67...938.2.8....9...3...2.7.3.2..6...293..87...6...... ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........95........4...8.3...96..2.....38..6.....73.92.6.7.27........683...2. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........95........4...8.3...96.72.....38..6.....73.92.6.7.2.........683...2. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........95........4...8.3...96.27.....38..6.....772.......3.92.6.7..683...2. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........95........4...8.63..2..27........932.67..72....38.6.9....7..3....6.9 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........95........4...8.63..2..72........932.67..6.9....7.2.....38..3....6.9 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........95........4...8.63..2...932.67...2.......6.9....7.27....38..3....6.9 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5.......6.9..7..54....97..96....8...7...6.54.86.........384......2.... ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.58.4....64.9.8..84.5.....6.794..5..59.........6...32....7.6.........8. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.946...648.....8.....9...9.....32.......6.47.9.8.5..5.64........57... ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9876.........5.9.......4...67..3928..2....3.7..8....9..923..87..3.2..6....6...... ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....6.....9....7....5..4..3...5..95..6.......2.1...86..5......1...3.....4.2. ED=11.8/11.8/11.7
98.7.....6...5......7..98..7....64....43...2.........1.7...46.....1....5....2..3. ED=11.8/11.8/9.9
98.76....54.........7..59..4....75.....3...2.....1...6.9...87....4....1....2....3 ED=11.8/11.8/11.5
98.76....75....8....6.......4.....3...8.5.7.....2....1..9.7.6.....3....2.....1.4. ED=11.8/11.8/11.8
98.7.....6...5......4..93..5......6..7..8......9..24....1.....4....9.1.......1.32 ED=11.8/11.8/11.4
98.7.....6...5......4..93..5..8......7..9..6...9..42....1....3....9..1.......1.42 ED=11.8/11.8/10.7
98.7.....7...6.9....5....4..9.3..8....2.....1.....4.5..3..7.6.....8...7......1..2 ED=11.8/11.8/10.6
98.7..6..5...9..4...3.....94...5...2.1...8.....5....3...2.4..9....6..7.......1... ED=11.8/11.8/10.5
98.7.....7.6...8....5......4..6..9......3..5......2..1.9.4..7......1..3......5..2 ED=11.8/11.8/10.4
98.7.....7.6...9...5.......4..8..6......5..3......2..1..89..4......1...2.....3.5. ED=11.8/11.8/10.4
98.7.....7.6...8....5......4..8..9......3..5......2..1.9.6..4......5...2.....1.3. ED=11.8/11.8/3.4
98.7.....6.....5....4......7..8..9......3..4......2..1.5.9..6......4..3......1..2 ED=11.8/11.8/3.4
98.........76..5......7..4.3....9....2......8..15...6...4.1.6.....7...1......2..3 ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.7..6..7......5...4.3...75..2...8..6....9....7..3.....23....1....14.........5.. ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.7.....6..89......5..4...7...3.9....6...7....2....51.6..8.3.......1.4.........2 ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.7..6....5.6..7......4...4.....9...3.........6....25..1.7...6....5..17.....83.. ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.7.....6..89......5..4...7...3.9....6...7....2....51.6..8.3.......1..4.......2. ED=11.8/11.8/2.6
98.7.....6..85......4..3...7...6.5....9...7....2....41.9..8.6.......1..3.......2. ED=11.8/1.5/1.5
98.7.....6..85......4..3...7...6.5....9...7....2....41.9..8.6.......1.3.........2 ED=11.8/1.5/1.5
98.7..6....5.96........4.9.87..6.9....3.........8....246...87......7.4.........1. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....76....9....5.9.....4.....3...68..7.......2..1..76..5......3...2.....1.4. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....6..9..5....4.3....75....6....2....1.........3.6.8..7......1...2.....9.4. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....6.....7....7.5.....4...3.2...89.........4...1..98..6......1...4.....2.3. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
98.7.....6..85......4..3...7..6..5....9...6....2....41.9..8.7.......1.2.........3 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2
9..8..7...8..6......5....4.6...9.....3.7..9.......2..5.9..3.8....4.....1.....1.2. ED=11.8/1.2/1.2


and some 11.7 and 11.6
Hidden Text: Show
9876.........958.......4...8.32..6...6........293..7..67....39.3.8...2.7.92....68 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...8.32..6...923..7...6.......67....39.3.8...2.7.2.....68 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...8.32..6...923..7...6.......67....29.2.8...3.7.3.....68 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...73.2..6...293..78...6......6.8...39.37....2....2....67 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...73.2..6...923..78...6......6.8...39.37....2...29....67 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...73.2..6...293..78...6......6.8...29.27....3....3....67 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76....5..........4...87.4....638...3.2..64......2.7.4...7.23...24........386.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876........95.8.......4...87.......3.2...6...96.32.8.23.7...98.6.3..2.7......36. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876........95.8.......4...87.......3.2...6...96.3278.23.....98.6.3..2.7......36. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........96........5....8.....43.2.....7.9..34...283.9..2..7.4..7.....2...3.8. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........96........5....8.4..37..39...4.8...2......7.....3.2.4.....98.3.2..47. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........96........5....8.4..37..39...4.8..72.......4.....98.3.2..47.......3.2 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5...9...4.......6.8.54...59...7....7489.....67...4......8..3........28 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5...9...4.......6.8.54...59........7489.....67...4......8..3.....7..28 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..5....479.........88......76.34.......2..4.......45..87....9864......79.5 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5...9...64......6.8.54...59...7....4.89.....76...4......8..3........28 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76....7.5.4.6....68.59..87....5.....5...4........324..95.....9...4....6..78..4 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..5....479........868......67.34.......2..4.......45...8....9864......79.5 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5...9...64......67....4......8..3........2859...7....4.89......6.54... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.7..6..7.5.6......68.59..87....5.....5...4........324..95.....9...4....6..78..4 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..5....479........868.....6.7.34.......2..4.......45...8....98.6......79.5 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5...9...64......67....4......8..3.....7..2859........4789......6.54... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5..8....64..9...4...87.9...76.4..8...95......6...43....4............2. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.54..............6.......54..98...7.975.6.....9....38...89.4.6......2.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45.........4....6......4.5..98..7..97..6...4.9...38....89..65........2 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98765.......9.48......3....7...2.....69.8.27...2...5..6........2.85..79...52..6.8 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98765.......9.48......3....8.2...5..7...2..8..69...27.6........2.85..79...52..6.. ED=11.7/2.0/2.0
98.76.54.7.54..............6.......549.58...7.579.6.....9....38...89.4.6......2.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7..5.........4....6.......459.48...7..79.6...4.9...3.8...89..56.......2. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45.........4....6......4.59.48..7...79.6...4.9...38....89..65........2 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.54..............6.......54..89...7.975.6.....9....38...98.4.6......2.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45.........4....6......4.5..89..7..97..6...4.9...38....98..65........2 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98765.......4..........3...8.62..7..2......96.957..8.25.........6..2.9.8.2..6..75 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98765.......4..........3...8.62..7..2......96.957..8.25.........6..2..75.2..6.9.8 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...8.9...36..6....2...23.6..8767.......3.82...9...23..6.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...8.9...36..6....2...23.6..8767.......3.82..79...23..... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...76....3...32.6..87..9...26.67.......2.83...9...32..6.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...76....3...32.6..87..9...26.67.......2.83..79...32..... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54...8..46......56.89....4.8..6....975.4....79....5......73.9......2.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54...8..46......4.8..6..5.975.4....6.89.....79....5......73.9......2.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54...8..46......56.89....4.8.......975.4....79....5....6.73.9......2.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54...8..46......4.8.....5.975.4....6.89.....79....5....6.73.9......2.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.54...8...6......56.89....4.8..6....975.4.....9....5......73.9......2.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.54...8...6......4.8..6..5.975.4....6.89......9....5......73.9......2.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.54...8...6......56.89....4.8.......975.4.....9....5....6.73.9......2.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.54...8...6......4.8.....5.975.4....6.89......9....5....6.73.9......2.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.4..8..4.......69.....5.....763.9......2..4.8.....5.7.98.....6..54... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45...96.........8...34......82.......6..4.96.7.....45.....8...9...6.75 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54.9.8..4.......4.8.7...5.6.8.......95.4....97....5....6..3.9......26. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45...96.........8...34......82.......6..4.96.7.....45.....86..9.....75 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54.9.8..4.......56.8.....4.8.7......95.4....97....5....6..3.9......26. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54.......6.5....6...8..4.4.89.5.6...76.......9...4.....87..95....9.3.2 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...7.9...63..32....87......2..2..3.67...762.839...8...... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...7.9...63..32.6..87......2..3........29...67...762.839. ED=11.7/1.5/1.5
98.76.5..7.54.......6.5....6...8..4.4.89.5.6..976........87..95....9.3.2......4.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54.9.8..46......5..8.....4.8.76....795.4....97....5....6..3.9......26. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...7.9...63..6....2...32....873........29...67...762.839. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45...96.........8...34......82.......6..9.46.7...4.95.....8...9...6.75 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45...96.........8...34......82.......6..9.46.7...4.95.....86..9.....75 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54.9.8..4.......56.8.....4.8.7.....975.4....79....5....6..3.9......26. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54.......6.5....6.89.5.4.4...8..6...76.......9...4.....87..95....9.3.2 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...8........67.3.829...32.67..7.9...62.32.....87......3.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54.......6.5....6.89.5.4.4...8..6..976........87..95....9.3.2......4.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...7.9...63.23..6..87......2..67.2.839..92..67....3...... ED=11.7/1.5/1.5
98.76.5..7.54.9.8..46......5..8.....4.8.76....975.4....79....5....6..3.9......26. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...7.9...63.23.....87.6....2..67.2.839..92..67....3...... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..5.74...9..46......8...3.....9..2............8.6...58.9....7.65........47 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.......64..89...4.....3...6....2....4.......76.4..8...95...7....8..9. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5....6...4......6..4.7...5..98..76..8.56..4.9..........8...3.....9..2. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5..9....64..8....9.6.4.8.....87..9....5..7..4......3..6.....2...4..... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5..9....64..8....976.4.8.....8...9....5..7..4......3..6.....2...4..... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45......5..4.7..69.......5.84.6.....789..5.4...8..32...9..86.......4.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.58.4....64......8.95......7694..5..5.....9....6.847.....7.3.2.......8. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.48....64..9...59.8...6..4765..8......7...4......5....9..4.3........2 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.48....64......59.8...6..4765..8.....97...4......5....9..4.3........2 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..5..4.89....6......69.5...8..7..86.....497....4......73....478..........2 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........96.8......5....74.....93.92.....8..34..72.4.8..23...79..324.........7 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........96.8......5....8.43..72.73.....94.92......3....24...79..423........87 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.48....64..9...59.6...8..4785..6......7...4......5....9..4.3........2 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.48....64......59.6...8..4785..6.....97...4......5....9..4.3........2 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..5..4.89....6......65.9...8..7..86.....457....4......73....478..........2 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........96.8......5....74.....93.92.....8..34..72.4.8..32...79..234.........7 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........96.8......5....8.43..72.73.....94.92......3....42...79..243........87 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...8.32...9.2..3..6...76......7.9...26.32..6..87.6....3.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...8.32..79.2..3......76......7.9...26.32..6..87.6....3.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...8.32...9.2..3..6.8.76......7.9...26.32..6...7.68...3.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...8.32..79.2..3....8.76......7.9...26.32..6...7.68...3.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...86....3...23.6..7...9...2.667.......3.82....9..23..68. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...86....3...23.6..7...9...2.667.......3.82..7.9..23...8. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...86....3...23.6..87..9...26.67.......3.82...9...23..6.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...86....3...23.6..87..9...26.67.......3.82..79...23..... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...7.9...36..6....2...32.6..8767.......2.83...9...32..6.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...7.9...36..6....2...32.6..8767.......2.83..79...32..... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876........54.............8.63..92.37........9286...32.....36......3.89......7.2 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........65..........4..8.493..2.72........932..8.4.4....2.3.....37.......2.89 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876........54.............8.63..92.37........9286...32......6..3....7.2.....3.89 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........65..........4..8.493..2.72........932..8.42....37...4......3.....2.89 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876........54.............8.63..92.37........9286...32......6..6...37.2.3.....89 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........65..........4..8.493..2.72........932..8.43....27..2....3.89.4......3 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876........54.............8.63..92.73........9286...337.....892......6..6...37.2 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987......6..54.............8.693.2..27........932...8672...38.93....267.........3 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........65..........4..8.493..2.27........932..8.472...3.893....27...4......3 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45......6..4....89.....54....7.3........2..6....74.954.89...6.7....... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7..5......6..4....89....4.5...6...3........2.6........54.89...7.7...6.58 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45......6..4....89.....54....7.3........2..64.85...95...974.6.7....... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7..5......6..4....89....4.5...6...3........2.6........57.49...8.4.8.6.57 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45......6..4....89.....54....7.3........2..6....74.854.98...6.7....... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7..5......6..4....89....4.5...6...3........2.6........54.98...7.7...6.59 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45......6..4....89.....54....7.3........2..64.95...85...874.6.7....... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7..5......6..4....89....4.5...6...3........2.6........57.48...9.4.9.6.57 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.6..4....548.....86.5...7.4.79...8...5.......49.........69.4.3........2 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.58.4....64..98..8........6.9....5..475.6.9....6...32...4.7..........8. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.6..49...54.8.....48...........7.5........32..74.8.6....95.........6.9. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.6..49...54.8.....7.....32.48.............5...74.8.6....95........76.9. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7..5...6.........86.8.....559....87..47....96...6..9.4....34.......2.... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7..5...6.........88...34......6..9.4....2....6.......559....87..47....96 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........96.8......5....8.........49.32.7...3..4..24.....7.33.8...29..72....84 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........98.76........5.84..39....924.7.....3.2....37...8.24.2..4...3..9...... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........98.76........5.84..39....924.7.....3.2....4.9......37...8.2..2..4...3 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........96.8......5....8.....43.2.....7.9..34...2.72...3.8.3.9..2..7.4....... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........96........5....49...38...72.8......3..4.7.3.....9.8.4.2..73........42 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........96.8......5....89....43..2....7.9..34...2.4........27...3.8..39..2..7 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........96........5....89....43...43..2.8..2....793........27...48...49..2..7 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76....7.54..8...64..59..6......324.7.............9...6.47.5....89.......5.6.8. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.49..6...56.48...56..7....4.8.59.7..............8..32.....48........96. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76....7.54..8...64.5.9..5..89......6.74.5......6.8.4.7.............9........32 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76....7.54..8...64.5.9..4.7.............9........32..6.74.5....89.......5.6.8. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..5.7.49......5.8...6.5......49...6.8..78....9..64....5......74.3........2 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5...9...64......6.8...4......7..83........259.6...4..4789........54... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7..4..98........768......4563........25.........9.4.67...85.4.9.....68.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.65..8...45......6.......4.7....69..54...7.8.986........43........29... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.54...8..64......87.59....5....6....468.7....97....5.......36.......2.9 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5.9.6...46......8.7.....4.9....78..64...9.5.58.7.......34.......2.8... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5.......4..5.8..86.94....5.7.86....94..7...6.9...4........73........29 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........98.76........5.74.....322.9.......38.2...43..2.7....7483......2.49... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........98.76........5.8.4.39...2..4.7....73.2....73...8.244.9.......2..4...3 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........96.8......5....74...32...93.4.78...2......43.....9.2.....4.7..8...32. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........96.8......5....84........39.2.78...2..34..4.....2.72.3....9..78...34. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........96.8......5....7.4..32...39.4.78..2.......4.3....9.2.....4.7.78...32. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5.......6.9...7.45....79..96...8.5..7....64.48.........53........28... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5.4.....6.9..7..5.86.........38.......2....4.....97..96....84..7...6.5 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.4.8.6...6.4.....8.7....9454....86...6...7.5.59.7.......3.9......2..... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7..5...6.....8.7..6.9.....757....89..48....56...6..9.4....34.......2.... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5....6..4.5..9..8.7...4.........38.......2.6..95....5.84.7....94.86... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.....65..43............7.8...6..26..8579..9.......5.....2.7.2.....69...2..85. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.....65..43............82....96....2...58......7.27.......626..85.97.95...... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...7.63..2...39..678..2.......6.3....972.....6....8...32. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...83.......7.62..3...29..678.6.2....973.....6.8......23. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.......465.....6.8.7..4.59.4.6.7...498.......8..3.2....9..85......4.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876........95........48...86....93..39...7.2..2....8667.2....32.8.6..97..3...... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.......465.....6.8..5.4..9.4.6.7..7498.......8..3.2....9..85......4.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876........95........48...86....93.7.2....86.3....7.26..2....32.8.6..97.93...... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5..48...64.5.....784.6.9...9.75......89.....4....6.9..6....32.......5. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876........95........48...86....93..3....7.2..2....8667.2....32.8.6..97.93...... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54...8..64......87.59....5...46....468.7....97....5....6..3.9......26. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
9876........95........48...83..6.97.7.63...2..92......6.....2.937....86..29....37 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5.8.6...........64....85.5.7....96..8...7..4.9.........3.94.5...2..... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........98.76........5.84.3....2..28.9.43.........42...7...3.92......7843.... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
987.........98.76........5.84.3....2.9.........28.9.4342..97...3..2......7843.... ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.54...8...6......5.8.96...46.8......795.4....9.....5......73.9......2.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.54...8...6......5.8.9....46.8......795.4....9.....5....6.73.9......2.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7...4......65.....6.8.9..4.49........57.8..6....9..3.2...87..95......4.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7...4......65.....6.8.9..4.4.........57.8..6...9...4.....9..3.2...87..95 ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98765....6...43........9...85.2..96.7.2....58..6...2.75........2.8.9567...9...8.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98765....6...43........96..85.2...9.7.2...8.5..6...72.5........2.8.95.67..9....8. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.4.9..8..56......89....75......79.6.......4.6..32....54.............8.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.4.9.....56......89....75......79.6.......486..32....54.............8.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.4.8..9..56......89....75......78.6.......4.6..32....54.............9.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.4.8.....56......89....75......78.6.......496..32....54.............9.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.7.....7.....6....5.4..7.5...9..8...4..32..........1.5..8..4....2....6.....13.. ED=11.7/1.2/1.2
98.7.....7.....9....6.5.....4..3..2...74..8.......1..4..86..5......4..1......2..3 ED=11.7/11.7/11.6
98.7..6..5...9..4...3..6..94.......3.2.6..8....8....5..7..81......2.........671.. ED=11.7/11.7/11.2
98.76.5..7.5.486...4.9.....6........4.985..7..78....5....4..9......9..32.......6. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5...6...4.......65..87.4...89.......754..6...9...4.....8...9.....9.3.2 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.4.....469..8..6..4.7.9....85........96.5.4.....7...7.....32.......8. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.......46..9...8.9...43....8.4..5.......2...795...6...4.6.5.....87... ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.486...4.9.....6...7....4.985..7...8....5....4..9......9..32.......6. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.4.....469..8..6..4.7.9..9.85.........6.5.4.....7...7.....32.......8. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...8.32.769.2..3..7....6......7.9...26.32..6..8..6....3.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...8.32.769.2..3.67....6......7.9...26.32.....8..6....3.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...8.32.769.2..3..7.8..6......7.9...26.32..6.....68...3.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...8.32.769.2..3.67.8..6......7.9...26.32........68...3.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...7.9...36..6....2...32....8.6........2.83.769...32.67.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...7.9...36..6....2...32.6..8.6........2.83.769...32..7.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...83.2.769.2..3..7....6......79....26.3.2.6..8..68...3.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...83.2.769.2..3.67....6......79....26.3.2....8..68...3.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...83.2.769.2..3..7.8..6......79....26.3.2.6.....68...3.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...83.2.769.2..3.67.8..6......79....26.3.2.......68...3.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98765.......94.8.......3...87.......5.2...6...96.25.8.25.7...98.6....2.7......56. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98765.......94.8.......3...87.......5.2...6...96.2578.25.....98.6....2.7......56. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5.......4..9..8.6.85.7...47..89....5.64.....9....3.6.....6.7.......2.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.4..9....56..8...67.54....5.9....4..48.9.......67..9.....8.3.2......4.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.4..9....56......67.54....5.98...4..48.9.......67..9.....8.3.2......4.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5.......4..9..8.87..49...6.45.7....5.68.....9....3.6.....6.7.......2.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.4..9....56..8...67.45....5.9....4..489........8..3.2...67..9.......4.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.4..9....56......67.45....5.9.8..4..489........8..3.2...67..9.......4.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.48....645.9...59.8...6..476...8.....75...4......7....9..4.3........2 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.48....645.....59.8...6..4769..8.....75...4......7....9..4.3........2 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.48....645.9...59.6...8..478...6.....75...4......7....9..4.3........2 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.48....645.....59.6...8..4789..6.....75...4......7....9..4.3........2 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..75.8.4.6......9...32..........54..........6....8...7.9...67.85.....9..4. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..75.8.4........9...32..........54..........6....8...79....67.8.5....9..64 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..75..84.6......9...32..........45..........6....8...7.9...9...4....67.85. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..75..84........9...32..........45..........6....8...79....9...64...67.8.5 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...8.9...36..6....2...23....876........3.82.769...23.67.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...76....3...32....87..9...26.6........2.83.769...32.67.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...8.9...36..6....2...23.6..876........3.82.769...23..7.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...76....3...32.6..87..9...26.6........2.83.769...32..7.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5..9....64..8....976.4.8.....87..9....5.....49.....3..6.....2...4..... ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76....7.54.......4.5.7..6....4....97..5....4.98..6..5.....7....89.5.6.......32 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45.......5...7..6....5....97..4....5.98..6....89.4.6...4...32.......7. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45.......5.4.7..6....5...45.98..6..97.........89...6...4...32.......7. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45.......5...7..6....5...45.98..6..97..4......89...6...4...32.......7. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45.......5...7..6....5....97..4....5.98..6..4.....7....89...6...4...32 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45.......5.4.7..6....5....97..4....5.98..6..4.....7....89...6.......32 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76....7.54.......4.5.7..6....4....97..5....4.89..6..5.....7....98.5.6.......32 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45.......5...7..6....5....97..4....5.89..6....98.4.6...4...32.......7. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45.......5.4.7..6....5...45.89..6..97.........98...6...4...32.......7. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45.......5...7..6....5...45.89..6..97..4......98...6...4...32.......7. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45.......5...7..6....5....97..4....5.89..6..4.....7....98...6...4...32 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45.......5.4.7..6....5....97..4....5.89..6..4.....7....98...6.......32 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...86....3...23....7...9...2.66........3.82.76.9..23.678. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...86....3...23.6..7...9...2.66........3.82.76.9..23..78. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...86....3...23....87..9...26.6........3.82.769...23.67.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.........958.......4...86....3...23.6..87..9...26.6........3.82.769...23..7.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5.......4..5.8..6.9..........76.39.......2.56..87...4.79.5.....8.4.... ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5.......4..5.8..6.9..........76.39.......2.56..87..4..8.4......79.5... ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54.9....46.8.9..4.75...6..9...6....68....5....8.7........4.32.......9. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54.9.....6.8.9..4.75...6..9...6....68....5...4....9....8.7........4.32 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54.9....46.8.9..4.75...8..9...8....68....5....6.7........4.32.......9. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54.9.....6.8.9..4.75...8..9...8....68....5...4....9....6.7........4.32 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5..4....64.598..6..47..9....9...8.....85...4.7.........6...5........32 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5..4....64.598..6..47..9....9.6.8.....85...4.7........6....32.......5. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..5.7..9....465.....8.9...43.....84..........2...5.96..7...8.5......47...6 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.59.48...46.5.....9864..7...78.5.............6....4....4....32......95. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45.8....56.948..8.5......64.....8..97.4..6....97...........5........32 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5...6...4.......6.958..4.45.9.7.6..78.46......89..........4........3.2 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45.8....56.948..8.56......97.4..6..4.....8....97...........5........32 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.4.9...64......8.6..........76.83........26.8.54...59........4789.... ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.54......64..98..6.8.74......98.......5.6...4.6...7...97....32.......5. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.65.49...54..8...64.....32.78...4.........5..9748.......9.6.......75... ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.....6...54............87....63.2.6.738.9..9......3.....28...23...96...2..7.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
9876.....6...54............83.2..96.2.....7.3...3....87.....2.636..82.97.9....... ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5.4..6....8.....6.748....49..5.....589.6.....9....8.....7.3.9......2.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.54.7.5.4..6....8.....69..5....4.768.....589.4.....9....8.....7.3.9......2.. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.......64.8.9..4.859.....9..46.8......7....76.....3.....4...........2 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.......64.8.9..4..59.....9..46.8....8.7....76.....3.....4...........2 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.......64.8.9..4.659.....9..48.6......7....78.....3.....4...........2 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.5.......64.8.9..4..59.....9..48.6....6.7....78.....3.....4...........2 ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
98.76.5..7.45..6......94...6.794..5.5..8.7........6...4.......3..9....2.....8..6. ED=11.6/1.2/1.2
Paquita
 
Posts: 132
Joined: 11 November 2018

Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby mith » Sat Aug 26, 2023 5:20 pm

To save myself some headaches later, I am going to consider this post the cutoff for the upcoming update.

Here is an archive of all minimals currently in the database. Link

Will update credit for any posted before this post which weren't minimals of expanded forms published last update. (Forgot to include headers, but the columns are minimal_minlex, expanded_minlex, creator, name, clues.)
mith
 
Posts: 996
Joined: 14 July 2020

Re: The hardest sudokus (new thread)

Postby Paquita » Sat Aug 26, 2023 6:27 pm

Mith,

Quite a collection! Did you rate these, or part of them? There are no rates in your list. And is it correct that this is the T&E(3) collection? So these will not show up in an update of the ph2010?

Hendrik,

I think that rating a puzzles 4 times to establish it is really a 11.9 is too much. I support your previous suggestion, that the publisher decides the form of the puzzle and that it is SER (or PGE) rated. This means that your and miths 11.9's are indeed all 11.9, and my recently found 5 are too. In other words, the highest possible SER/PGE rate counts. I have not tried PGX yet and maybe that would be an acceptable rating as well. I would not include skfr rates, it is a great tool for fast rating but less precise.
My recent 11.9s rate the same in minlex.

Code: Select all
.......12.....3..4..4.1.5....2.6..5..3.7.....8....9.....6.2...1.7.8..6..9....6... ED=11.9/11.9/11.8
.......12.....3..4..4.1.5....1.6...5.3.7.....8....9.....6.2..5..7.8..6..9....6.4. ED=11.9/11.9/11.6
.......12.....3..4..1.4.5....2.5..4..6....7..8..9.......5.2...7.9...6...3..8..... ED=11.9/11.9/11.3
........1....23.45..51..2....25...1..6...27..8...9......42....7.3...6...9...8.... ED=11.9/11.9/9.9
.......12....13..4..12..5....46....5.7....6..8...9......64...5..9...7...3...8.... ED=11.9/1.2/1.2
Paquita
 
Posts: 132
Joined: 11 November 2018

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