The New Sudoku Players' Forum

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Wed Nov 15, 2023 7:26 pm

.
Hi Coloin
The complement of the givens of P always has a solution, but it may not be unique. If it is unique, it has a certain number of minimals and the complement of each of them is obviously an extension of P. I don't know in what precise sense it can be considered a "max" extension.
Anyway, any of these extensions of P can generate minimals. But there's no a priori complexity relation between them and P.

However, in your example, it is true that the 23 minimals are in B10B - which is a large extension of the number of known puzzles in B10B (only one until now).
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by **hendrik_monard** » Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:10 pm

denis_berthier wrote:.
Hi Coloin
The complement of the givens of P always has a solution, but it may not be unique. If it is unique, it has a certain number of minimals and the complement of each of them is obviously an extension of P. I don't know in what precise sense it can be considered a "max" extension.
Anyway, any of these extensions of P can generate minimals. But there's no a priori complexity relation between them and P.

However, in your example, it is true that the 23 minimals are in B10B - which is a large extension of the number of known puzzles in B10B (only one until now).
.

Hi Denis,
I checked the list of 23 minimals of coloin and discovered that 5 of them are isomorphs of 5 puzzles I posted in May 2023 which were also in the list of 50k puzzles you examined recently. They were however not in the list of 92 puzzles with BpB > 6.
Apparently, for those 5 puzzles the BpB ranking was not done. Is it possible that in my list of 50k puzzles there are other puzzles with BpB > 6 not (yet) identified ?
In the following list, each pair contains the puzzle from coloin's list followed by the maxlex isomorph I posted in May 2023

87965.......4..........3.......6.9...95.2..76..2...85.25.....9..67....289.8...5.7 M4M15612
98765.......4..........3...89....75.7.6...8.2.25.....95.9.2.6.72......85....6..9.;M4M15612

97865.......4..........3.......2.9.6.95.6..72..2...85.25.....9..67....288.....5.7 M4M15670
98765.......4..........3...86....92..52....7...9...8.557..6.28.2......59....2.6.7;M4M15670

97865.......4..........3....8..2.9.6.95.6..72..2...85.25.....9..67....28......5.7 M4M15680
98765.......4..........3...86....92..52....7.......8.557..6.28.2......59.9..2.6.7;M4M15680

97865.......4..........3.......6.9...95.2..76..2...85.25.....9..67....288.....5.7 M4M11662
98765.......4..........3...86....92..52....7...9...8.557..2.68.2......59....6...7;M4M11662

97865.......4..........3....8..6.9...95.2..76..2...85.25.....9..67....28......5.7 M4M11656
98765.......4..........3...86....92..52....7.......8.557..2.68.2......59.9..6...7;M4M11656

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:21 pm

Hi Hendrik,

The 10 puzzles are indeed in B10B.

hendrik_monard wrote:[ Is it possible that in my list of 50k puzzles there are other puzzles with BpB > 6 not (yet) identified ?

Quick answer: yes.

I've just checked the BpB file for your 50k puzzles: it contains negative values, which means the default buffer-size was too small. These computations were done before we decided with François to increase the default values of several parameters (precisely after I found puzzles in your file with BpB = 9 or 10). One can say that puzzles with negative BpB values have not really been submitted to the classification.
I should have checked that there were no negative values, but I forgot to do it.
I have long calculations running, but they should end soon and I'll relaunch the calculations for your puzzles next week with the new default parameters.
.

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 1:41 pm

denis_berthier wrote:
hendrik_monard wrote:[ Is it possible that in my list of 50k puzzles there are other puzzles with BpB > 6 not (yet) identified ?

Quick answer: yes.

I've just checked the BpB file for your 50k puzzles: it contains negative values, which means the default buffer-size was too small. These computations were done before we decided with François to increase the default values of several parameters (precisely after I found puzzles in your file with BpB = 9 or 10). One can say that puzzles with negative BpB values have not really been submitted to the classification.
I should have checked that there were no negative values, but I forgot to do it.

We decided to introduce an explicit message at the end of computations for files, so that not noticing negative values shouldn't happen again.

After redoing the calculations:

The new 77 B7B puzzles are unchanged:

Code: Select all: 98.76.54.7.5.4.8....6....9.67...5...4.8...75..59....68...3....9...2..........4... 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3079 98.76.5..7.4.8.....56...8..8.5..7.4.6..59.....79.48.6....9....3......4..........2 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3080 98.76.54.7.5..4....6...8.9.85.9.6...4.6.87......45...8..7...3........2..........9 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3081 98.76.54.7.5.9.....64..8.9.85.9.6...4.6.87......45...8..7...3........2..........9 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3233 98.76.54.7.5.498...6.8.....49..87....579.6......45...9..6....3........2.........8 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3234 98.76.54.7.5..4....6...8.9.8..9.6...4.6.87..5...45...8..7...3........2..........9 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3235 98.76.54.7.5.9.....64..8.9.8..9.6...4.6.87..5...45...8..7...3........2..........9 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3236 98.76.5..7.5.498...648......9..87....579.6.4....45..9...6.....3.......8.........2 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3237 98.76.5..7.5..9....645.8...8...75.9.5.649...7...8.....6.....4.3...6.4...........2 11.8/1.2/1.2 220928 #5743 98.76.5..7.58.49...46.5.....78.46.9...958.......9.7....6.........4....32.....8.5. 11.8/1.2/1.2 220928 #5744 98.76.5..7.5.496...4.......67.89....5..4.6.7..94.5........8..........8.3......4.2 11.8/1.2/1.2 230514 #15340 98.76.5..7.4..98...56......8..5.6.9..67.8......9.74.......4..........6.3......4.2 11.8/1.2/1.2 230514 #15344 98.76.5..7.4..98...56..8...8..5.6.9.5.9.74....679.........4..........6.3......4.2 11.8/1.2/1.2 230514 #15345 98.76.5..7.5.496...4.5.....67.89....5..4.6.7..94..7.......8..........8.3......4.2 11.8/1.2/1.2 230514 #15346 98.76.5..7.5..89...645.9...59...4....486.5.7...7.8......6....9....4............32 11.8/1.2/1.2 230514 #15382 98.76.5..7.6.4......58.....6.859..4.45..7.....9.6......7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #34412 98.76.5..7.5.496...4.5.....67.89....5..4.6.7..94.7........8..........8.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #37154 98.76....7.6..5....458.....6...98.....7..48.....57.9..5.4....98.....6..........32 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #37188 98.76.5..7.5.496...4.......67.89....5....6.7..94.5........84.........8.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #37325 98.76.5..7.5..96...4.......67.89....5..4.6.7..94.5........84.........8.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #37396 98.76.5..7.6.4......58.....6.859..4.4...7.....9.6...5..7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #37433 98.76.5..7.4..98...5.......8..5.6.9..67.8......9.74...6.....4.3....4..........6.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #37439 98.76....7.6..58...458.....6...98.....7..4......57..9.5.4...9.8.....6.........3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #37475 98.76.5..7.4..98...56......8..5...9..67.8......9.74......64..........6.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #37485 98.76.5..7.6.45.....58.....6.8.9..4.45..7.....9.6......7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #37517 98.76.5..7.6.4......58.....6.759..4.45..78....9.6......7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38028 98.76.5..7.4..98...56..8...8..5.6.9.5.7.94....6..7........4..........6.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38836 98.76.5..7.4..98...56..8...8..5.6.9.5.9.74....67.9........4..........6.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38844 98.76.5..7.4..98...5.......8..5...9..67.8......9.74...6.....4.3...64..........6.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38891 98.76.5..7.6.4......58.9...6..5...4.45..78....976......7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38922 98.76.5..7.6.45.....58.9...6......4.45..78....976......7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38927 98.76.5..7.5.496...4.5.....67.89....5..4.6.7..94..5.......8..........8.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38939 98.76.5..7.5.496...4.5.....69.87....5..4.6.7...4.9........8..........8.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38944 98.76.5..7.6.45.....58.....6...9..4.45..78....976......7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38967 98.76.5..7.4..98...56..8...8..5...9.5.9.74....679........64..........6.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39001 98.76.5..7.6.4......58.9...6.75...4.4...78....9.6...5..7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39044 98.76.5..7.6.4......58.....6.759..4.4...78....9.6...5..7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39045 98.76.5..7.6.4......58.....6..59..4.4...78....986...5..7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39049 98.76.5..7.6.4......58.....6..59..4.45..78....976......7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39052 98.76....7.6.54....548.....64..98.....76.58......7.9..4.5....98.....6..........32 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39058 98.76.5..7.4..98...56..8...8..5.6.9..678.......9.74.......4..........6.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39059 98.76.5..7.5..96...4.5.....67.89....5..4.6.7..94..7.......84.........8.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39081 98.76.5..7.5.496...4.5.....67.89....5....6.7..94..7.......84.........8.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39140 98.76.5..7.5.496.....5.....69.87....5..4.6.7...4.9....4.....8.3....8..........4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39162 98.76.5..7.6.45.....58.....6...9..4.45..78....986......7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39167 98.76.5..7.5..96...4.5.....69.87....5..4.6.7...4.9....4.....8.3....8..........4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39170 98.76....7.6.54....548.....64..98.....7..58.....67.9..4.5....98.....6..........32 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39193 98.76.5..7.5.496...4.5.....67.89....5....6.7..94.7........84.........8.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39197 98.76.5..7.6.4......58.9...6.75...4.45..78....9.6......7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39200 98.76.5..7.4..98...5...8...8..5...9..678.......9.74...6.....4.3...64..........6.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39211 98.76.5..7.5.496...4.5.....69.87....5....6.7...4.9........84.........8.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39224 98.76.5..7.6.45.....58.....6.7.9..4.45..78....9.6......7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39261 98.76.5..7.5..96...4.5.....69.87....5..4.6.7...4.9........84.........8.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39265 98.76.5..7.5.496...4.5.....67.89....5....6.7..94..5.......84.........8.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39318 98.76.5..7.5..96...4.5.....67.89....5..4.6.7..94.7........84.........8.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39336 98.76.5..7.4..98...56..8...8..5...9..678.......9.74......64..........6.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39422 98.76.5..7.6.4......58.....6..59..4.45..78....986......7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39431 98.76.5..7.6.45.....58.9...6.7....4.45..78....9.6......7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39443 98.76.5..7.4..98...5...8...8..5.6.9..678.......9.74...6.....4.3....4..........6.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39447 98.76....7.6..58...458.....65..98.....75.4.......7..9.5.4...9.8.....6.........3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39455 98.76....7.6..5....458.....65..98.....75.48......7.9..5.4....98.....6..........32 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39458 98.76.5..7.5..96...4.5.....67.89....5..4.6.7..94..5.......84.........8.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39464 98.76.5..7.4..98...56..8...8..5.6.9..6.87......7.94.......4..........6.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39681 98.76.5..7.6.4......58.....6..59..4.4...78....976...5..7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39797 98.76.5..7.4..98...5...8...8..5...9..6.87......7.94...6.....4.3...64..........6.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39950 98.76....7.5...9...46..5...5..98.....6.5.7.8...8.46....7..........6.4.98.......32 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39952 98.76.5..7.4..98...56..8...8..5...9.5.7.94....6..7.......64..........6.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39953 98.76.5..7.4..98...5...8...8..5.6.9..6.87......7.94...6.....4.3....4..........6.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39955 98.76....7.5...9...46..58..5..98.....6.5.7.....8.46....7..........6.4.98.......32 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39957 98.76.5..7.4..98...56..8...8..5...9..6.87......7.94......64..........6.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39959 98.76.5..7.6..5....4..8....8..6...5.5...98.4..97.4....67....4.5...9...........3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39960 98.76.5..7.6..5....45.8....8..6......9754........98.4.67....4.5...9...........3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39961 98.76.5..7.6..5....4..8....8..6.....5...98.4..9754....67....4.5...9...........3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39962 98.76.5..7.5.496.....5.....69.87....5....6.7...4.9....4.....8.3....84.........4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39965 98.76....7.6..5....45.8....8..6..5...9754........984..67.....54...9............32 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39966 98.76.5..7.6.4......58.9...6..5...4.4...78....976...5..7..........98.4.5......3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #40118 98.76.5..7.4..98...56..8...8..5...9.5.9.74....67.9.......64..........6.3......4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #40187

There are 28 B8B puzzles:

Code: Select all: 98.76.5..7.5.946....48.....6..9.7....7..8..6..49.56.......48.........83.......42. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3662 98.76.5..7.5..4....64..89..6.759.....5.8.6.....8.4..5....47..........73.......42. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3663 98.76.5..7.5.946....48.....6..9.7....7.48..6..49.56...4.....83......8.........42. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3664 98.76.5..7.5..4....64..89..6.759.....5.8.6.....8.47.5..7....43....4...........72. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3665 98.76.5..7.5.94....648.....6..9.7....7..8..6..49.56.......48.........83.......42. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3885 98.76.5..7.58.49...64..5...6...8..9.5.9.47....789.....4.6............63.......42. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3915 98.76.5..7.59.4....64..87..6.957.....5.8.6.....8.4..5....49..........93.......42. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3916 98.76.5..7.58.49...64..5...64..8..9.5.9.47....789.......6.........4..63.......42. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3920 98.76.5..7.59.4....64..87..6.957.....5.8.6.....8.49.5..9....43....4...........92. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #3921 98.76.5..7.5.94....648.....6..9.7....7.48..6..49.56...4.....83......8.........42. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #4009 98.76.5..7.58.46...46..9...5.79.....49...8....6854.....7.....65....8..32......... 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #4212 98.76.5..7.58.4....64.95...64..8..9.5.9.47....789.......6.........4..63.......42. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220515 #4213 98.76.5..7.58.49.......5...6.4............63.......42.5.9.47...46..8..9..789..... 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #6222 98.76.5..7.5.......64..87..6.957.....5.8.6.....8.94.5....94..........93.......42. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #6224 98.76.5..7.58.49...4...5...6...........4..63.......42.5.9.47...46..8..9..789..... 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #6234 98.76.5..7.5..9....64..87..6.957.....5.8.6.....8.94.5..9....43.....4..........92. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #6236 98.76.5..7.58.4.......95...6.4............63.......42.5.9.47...46..8..9..789..... 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #6479 98.76.5..7.58.4....4..95...6...........4..63.......42.5.9.47...46..8..9..789..... 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #6480 98.76.5..7.54..6...4..58...6.8..5...4..69.....7.8.4.....7....32...9.7.65......... 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #7950 98.76.5..7.4..96...5.......6...97....7865......98.4.6....48..........83.......42. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #9259 98.76.5..7.54..6...4..58...6.8.75...4..69.....7.8.4.....7....32...9...65......... 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #9409 98.76.5..7.54......46.58...6.8..5...4..69.....7.8.4.6...7....32...9.7.56......... 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #9778 98.76.5..7.54......46.58...6.8.75...4..69.....7.8.4.6...7....32...9...56......... 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #9779 98.76.5..7.4..9....56..8...8.....43....4...........82.6...97....7865......98.4.6. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #9976 98.76.5..7.4..9....56......6...97....7865......98.4.6....48..........83.......42. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #9977 98.76.5..7.4..96...5...8...8.....43....4...........82.6...97....7865......98.4.6. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #10025 98765.......4.3............8.67..5...5....89..29.....66...2.7.92...6..58..5....2. 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #33700 98765.......4.3............8.67..5...5....89..29.....66...2.7.92......58..5...62. 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #44463

There are 160 B9B puzzles:

Code: Select all: 987......6..8.......5......4..38.21....2.4..8....163...6..32.41...4..83....1..6.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 220223 #1241 987......6..8.......5......4..3..21....24...8....613...6..23.41...4..83....18.6.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 220223 #1242 987......6..8.......5.......5.43.21....2.8..4....15.83..43.18.2.....235........41 11.6/1.2/1.2 220223 #1243 98.76.5..7.5..9....64..8....97.46.8...659.......8.7....4......3.....4.5........21 11.6/1.2/1.2 220223 #1439 98.76.5..7.54.9....64..8...4..8.7....97..6.8...659.....4......3.....4.5........21 11.6/1.2/1.2 220223 #1440 987......6.........5.......4..73.21....2.64.3....14..7..63.1.24....4.37.....276.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 220223 #1470 98.76.5..7.48......56......56..8..4.4.89.6....7945......7..........9...3....7.2.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 220515 #4706 98.76.5..7.5.94........8...6.8.47...45.9.6....7.85..4..9....3.2.6......1.....9... 11.6/1.2/1.2 220515 #4707 98.76.5..7.5.84....645.9...6.849..7...98.5.......76...4.......3.....8..........21 11.6/1.2/1.2 220515 #4708 98.76.5..7.5.94........8...6.8.47...45.9.6....7985..4..6......3.....9.........2.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 220515 #4709 987......6..85......4......3..28.51....5.6.3.....136.2.6..3512....1...63....2.8.5 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #8123 9876.....5.....8....4......3..2..18....3..6.5....51.23.5.12..36...5.32......86.1. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #8508 9876.....5.....8....4......3..26.18....3..6.5....51.23.5.12..36...5.32......8..1. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #8509 987......6..85......4......3..28.51....5.6.3.....136.2.6..3.12....1.8.63....2.8.5 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #8512 9876.....5.....86...4......3..2..18....3..6.5....51.23.5.12..3....5.32.8....86.1. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #8668 987......6..85......4......3.628.51....5.6.3.....13..2.6..3512....1...63....2.8.5 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #9475 987......6..85......4......3..28.51....5.6.3.....136.2.6..3512....62.8.5...1....3 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #9476 9876.....5.....8....4......3..2..18....3..6.5....51.23.5.12..36....8651......32.. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #9805 9876.....5.....8....4......3.52..18....3..6.5....1..23.5.1.2.36...53.2......68.1. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #9806 9876.....5.....8....4......3..26.18....3..6.5....51.23.5.12..36....8.51......32.. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #9807 9876.....5.....8....4......3.526.18....3..6.5.....1.23.5.12..36...5.32......8..1. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #9808 987......6..85......4......3..28.51....5.6.3.....136.2.6..3.12....62.8.5...1.8..3 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #9809 9876.....5.....86...4......3..2..18....3..6.5....51.23.5.12..3.....8651......32.8 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #9810 987......6..85......4......3.628.51....5.6.3.....13..2.6..3.12....1.8.63....2.8.5 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #9811 9876.....5.....86...4......3.52..18....3..6.5....1..23.5.1.2.3....53.2.8....68.1. 11.7/1.2/1.2 220928 #9812 98.76.5..7.5.......649.....6.985..4..784.6....5..7........9...3....8.2.1......... 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #13199 98.76.5..7.5.84......9.....65.8.7.4.4.8.96....9..5.....7......3.6....2.1......... 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #13216 98.76.5..7.45.8.....6.4....5.89.6....9.48..6..4...7....7...........9...3.......21 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #13395 98.76.5..7.45.8.....6.4....64...7...5.89......9.48..6..7...........9...3.......21 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #13402 987......6..8...........5..4.32...1....13.4.5....8...2...42..81...3.12......5.3.4 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #13487 98.76.5..7.5.84......9.5...6..8.7.4.4.8.96.5..9.4......7......3.6....2.1......... 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #13491 98.76.5..7.54.89....6..9...6.8.74.5.4..98.......5.6.....7....32..4.....1......... 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #13492 98.76.5..7.5.84......9.....6..8.7.4.4.8.96.5..9..5.....7......3.6....2.1......... 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #13493 987......6...........85....4.3..21.....54.23....1...8....43..58...2.841.....1.3.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #13498 987......6...........85....4.3..21.....54.23....1...8....43..58...2..41.....153.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #13499 98.76.5..7.5.48.....6..9...8.4.........4...3........215.86.7....6.9....7..9.54... 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #13896 987......6..8...........5...4.32.1.......534......1.28..31....2...2.345.....48.1. 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #14058 987......6...........85.....4..3.21....42..85...1.8..3..2..13.....54.1.2...3...48 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #14064 987......6...........85.....4..3521....42..85...1....3..2..13.....54.1.2...3...48 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #14065 98.76.5..7..4.89....6.5....6.8..4.5.45.98.....7...6.....4.....3.....7..........21 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #14089 98.76.5..7.54.89....6..9...6.8..4.5.4..98.....7.5.6.....4.....3.....7..........21 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #14097 987......6...........85....4.3..21.....54.23....1...8..4.2.531....43..58....1.4.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #15304 98.76.5..7.54.89....6.9....6.8.47.5.4..98.......5.6.....7....32..4.....1....7.... 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #15305 98.76.5..7.58.4.......95...6...87.4.4.89.6.5..9.4......7......3.6....2.1...6..... 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #15308 987......6...........85.....4.3..21....42..58....184.3..2..31.....54.32....1...84 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #15309 98.76.5..7.54.89....6.9....6.8.47.5.4..98.....7.5.6.....4.....3....7...........21 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #15312 98.76.5..7.58.4.....6.95...6...87.4.4.89.6.5..9.4......7......3...6...........2.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 220928 #15314 987......65..........6.....4..93.21.2...613.4.......96...3.94.....14..29....2.1.3 11.7/11.0/3.4 230514 #15421 987......65.9...........6..4..32.91.3..1.4.62....96......4..1.9...2.1.3.....3.24. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #15747 987......65.9...........6..4..32.91.3..1.4..2....96......4..1.9...2.1.36....3.24. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #16267 98.76.5..7.45.......6..89..64..9....5.8..6....974.5.8.47............473.........2 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #16810 987......65..........6.....4..93.21.2....13.4.......96...3.94.....14..29....261.3 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #19072 987......65.9...........6..4..32.16.3..1.4..2....96......4...19...2.13......3.42. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #19131 987......6..8...........5...4.32.1.....1.4.82....58.3...32.581......1.54......2.3 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #21315 987......65.9...........6..4..32.91.2..4.13.6....6.......2...93...13.4......942.1 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #21539 987......65.9...........6..4..32.91.2..4.13.6....6.......2...93...13.46......42.1 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #22103 987......6...........85.....4..3.2.....2.8.43.....158...1.83.52...4.513.....2.8.. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #22379 987......6..8...........5...4.32.1.....1.4.82....58.3...32.185......5.14......2.3 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #22477 987......6..8...........5...4..3.2.....2.4.83....58.1...13.582.....12.54......3.. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #22492 987......6...........85.....4..3.21....2.8.34.....15.8..1.83.25...4.5..3...12.8.. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #22494 987......6...........85.....4..3521....24..58...1..3.4..258.1.3...4.3..5....1..8. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #22676 987......6..8...........5...4.32.1.....1.4.82....584.3..32.18.5....8.2.......5.14 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #22679 987......6..8...........5...4.32..51...1.42.8....5834...32.581......14.........23 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #22681 987......6...........85.....4..3.21....24..58...1.83.4..258.1.3...4.3..5....1..8. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #22683 98.76.5..7.4.586...5.4.....6.8..5...57.64.....49.8..6...7..........9..3........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #22711 98.76.5..7.4.586...5.4.....6.8..5...57.64.....49.8..5...7..........9...3.......21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #22753 987......6..8...........5...4.32..51...1.42.8....5834...32.581.....314.........2. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #22949 987......6..8...........5...4..3.2.....2.4.83....58.1...13.285.....15.24......3.. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23382 987......6...........85.....4..3.21....2.8.34.....15.8..1.85.23...4.3..5...12.8.. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23400 987......6...........85.....4..3.2.....2.8.43.....158...1.85.32...4.315.....2.8.. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23440 98.76.5..7.54.8....64.59...8.6.7..9..4..8......76.5...6......32....46...........1 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23544 987......6..8...........5...4.32..51...1.42.8....5834...32.5.1.....8..2.....314.. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23564 987......6..8...........5...4.32.1.....1.4.82....584.3..32.18.5....35.14......2.. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23565 987......6..8...........5...4.32.1.....1.4.82....584.3..32.18.5.....5.14......23. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23571 98.76.5..7.5..8....645.9...8.74.6.9...6.75......89....4.......3...6.4..........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23579 987......6...........85.....4.5.321....42..58....183.4..23..1.5...1...8.....45..3 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23587 98.76.5..7.5.486....4......67.45....5.89.6....49.8..5...7..........9..3........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23588 987......6...........85.....4.5.321....42..58....183.4..23..1.5...1...8.....4..23 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23593 987......6...........85.....4.5.321....42..58....1.3.4..238.1.5...1...8.....4..23 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23610 98.76.5..7.54.8....64.59...8.6.7..9..4.98......7..5...4.......3....46..........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23625 98.76.5..7.54.8....64.59...8.6.7..9..4..8......76.5...4.......3....46..........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23685 98.76.5..7.54.8....64.59...8.6.7..9..4.98......7..5...6......32....46...........1 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23695 987......6..8...........5...4.32..51...1.42.8....5834...32.5.1.....8..2......14.5 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23704 987......6...........85.....4.5.321....42..58....1.3.4..238.1.5...1...8.....45..3 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23774 987......6...........85.....4.5.321....42..58....183.4..23..1.5...1.2.8.....4...3 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23794 987......6..8...........5...4.32..51...1.42.8....5834...32.5.1.....8..23.....14.. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23808 98.76.5..7.5.486....45.....67.45....5.8..6....49.8..6...7..........9...3.......21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23856 98.76.5..7.5.486....45.....67.45....5.8..6....49.8..5...7..........9..3........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23867 987......6...........85.....4.5.321....42..58....1.3.4..238.1.5...1.2.8.....4...3 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #23912 98.76.5..7.5..8....645.9...8.74.6.9..4.8.......6.75...6......32...6.4...........1 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #24139 98.76.5..7.54.8....64.59...8.6.7..9..97..5....4..8....6......32....46...........1 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #24165 98.76.5..7.5.486....4..9...67.45....5.8.......49.8..6...7..........9...3.......21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #24194 98.76.5..7.5.486....4..9...67.45....5.8..6....49.8..5...7..........9..3........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #24195 98.76.5..7.5..8....645.9...8.74.6.9..4.8.......6.75...4.......3...6.4..........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #24196 98.76.5..7.54.8....64.59...8.6.7..9..97..5....4..8....4.......3....46..........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #24216 98.76.5..7.5.486....4......67.45....5.89......49.8..6...7..........9...3.......21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #24229 98.76.5..7.5.48....645.9...8.7....9..4.8.......6.75...6......32...4.6...........1 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #24746 98.76.5..7.5..8....645.9...8.7..4.9..4.8.......6.75...6......32...4.6...........1 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #24828 987......6...........85.....4.3.521....42..58....1.3.4..2.8.1.3...1...8.....43..5 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #24861 987......6..8...........5...4.32..1....1.42.8....5834...32.185.....354.1.......2. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #24872 987......6...........85.....4.3..21....42..58....183.4..25..1.3...1...8.....43..5 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #24890 987......6..8...........5...4.32..51...1.428.....583.4..32.1.......8...2.....541. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #24976 98.76.5..7.5.48....645.9...8.7....9..4.8.......6.75...4.......3...4.6..........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #24984 987......6...........85.....4.3.521....42..58....183.4..2...1.3...1...8.....43..5 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #25028 98.76.5..7.5..8....645.9...8.7..4.9..4.8.......6.75...4.......3...4.6..........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #25118 987......6..8...........5...4.32..1....1.42.8....5834...32.185......54.1.......23 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #25119 987......6..8...........5...4.32..51...1.428.....583.4..32.18......3541.........2 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #25394 987......6..8...........5...4.32..1....1.42.8....5834...32.1.5.....8..2......54.1 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #25409 98.76.5..7.5..8....645.9...8.7..4.9..96.75......8.....4.......3...4.6..........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #25422 987......6..8...........5...4.32..51...1.428.....583.4..32.18.......541........32 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #25507 98.76.5..7.5..8....645.9...8.7..4.9...6.75......89....4.......3...4.6..........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #25672 98.76.5..7.45.9.....6.4....8.7..........7.38.........25.98.4.6..786......4..5..9. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #28358 98.76.5..7.54.89...64......8.79.....5...76....9658.......64..........43........21 11.6/9.0/3.4 230514 #30737 98.76.5..7.5.......648.....6.895..4.5...7.....794.6....9...........9.3.2....8...1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #30965 98.76.5..7.5..9....648.....6.895..4.5...7.....794.6....9...........8...3......2.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #30981 987......6...........85....4.3..21.....54.23....1...8..4.2..31....43..58....184.2 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #30989 98.76.5..7.59.4....64.587..8.6.49.7...9..5......87....4.......3.....6..........21 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #31090 987......6...........85.....4.3.521....42..58....1.4.3..2..31.....54.32....1...84 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #31148 98.76.5..7.54.89...64......8.79.....5...76....9.58....6.....43....64...........21 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #31258 987......6..8...........5..4.32...1....13.4.5....8...2.4.32...1...4.128.....583.4 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #31426 987......6..8...........5...4.35..21...2.84.5.....183...21..38....43..52......1.4 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #31499 987......6..8...........5...4.32..1....4.12.8....5834...32....1...13.45.....84.2. 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #31627 98.76.5..7.58.4.......95...6...87.4.4.89.6.5..9..5.....7......3.6....2.1...6..... 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #31636 98.76.5..7.5..9....648.....8..9.6.5.5...87.4..7.45....69....4........3.2........1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #31653 98.76.5..7.58.4.....6.95...6...87.4.4.89.6.5..9..5.....7......3...6...........2.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #31658 98.76.5..7.5.......64.8....8..5.7.4..7984.....5..96...6...........9....3......2.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #34141 98.76.5..7.5..89...46......8.79.....5...74....9458.......64..........63........21 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #34164 98.76.5..7.5..9....648.....8..9.6.4.4...87.5..7..5....69....4........3.2........1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #34180 98.76.5..7.54.........58...6.984..5.47.6.......8.97.4..6......3...9...........2.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #34202 98.76.5..7.5.946...648......9748..5..4.6.........57.....8.....3...9............21 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #34203 98.76.5..7.58.49...64.9....64..78.5.5.8.......9.54.....7............6..3.......21 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #34255 987......6..8...........5...4.35..21...2.84.5.....138...21...3....43..52....8.1.4 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #34278 987......6...........85.....4.3.251....54..28....81..3..2.1..3....43.8.....2.514. 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #34488 987......6..8...........5...4.35..21...2.84.5.....138...21..83....43..52......1.4 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #34638 98.76.5..7.5..89...64......8.79.4...5...7.....9658.......64..........43........21 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #34925 98.76.5..7.5.......64.8....8...........9...3.......21.6..5.7..4.7964.....5..98... 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #37093 987......6...........85.....4.3.251....54..28....1...3..2..1.3....43.8.....2.514. 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #37102 98.76.5..7.5.......64.8....8..5.7.4..9784.....5..96...6.9.........9....3......2.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #37229 98.76.5..7.59.4.......8....6.95.....47.8.6....58.7..4..6......3....9..........2.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #37290 98.76.5..7.58.4.....6.9....6.857..4..79.4..5..5.9........68.4........3.2........1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #37449 98.76.5..7.54.89...46......8.79.6...5...7.....9458.......64..........63........21 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38092 98.76.5..7.54.89....6......8.79.6...5...74....9.58....4.....63....64...........21 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38154 98.76.5..7.58.4.....6.9....6.857..4.4..9......79.4..5....68.4........3.2........1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38264 98.76.5..7.5.48....649.....8.7..4.9...6.57......89....4.......3.....6..........21 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38790 98.76.5..7.5.......64.9....6..5.7.4.5...89....7864.....9..........8....3......2.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38797 98.76.5..7.5.......64.8....8.9.........9...3.......21.6..5.7..4.9764.....5..98... 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38894 98.76.5..7.59.4.......8....6.95.....47.6.8.....8.7..4..6......3....96.........2.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38898 98.76.5..7.59.4.....6.8....6.95.....47.6.8.....8.7..4..9....3.2....96...........1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38903 98.76.5..7.5..9....64.8....8..5.7.4..9784.....5..96...6.9.........6..3.2........1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38924 98.76.5..7.59.4.......8....6.75.....49.8.6....58.9..4..6......3....7..........2.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #38956 98.76.5..7.59.4.....6.8....6.75.....49.6.8.....8.9..4..7....3.2....76...........1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39788 98.76.5..7.59.4.......8....6.75.....49.6.8.....8.9..4..6......3....76.........2.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39823 98.76.5..7.5..9....64.8....8.9.........8..32........1.6..5.7..4.9764.....5..98... 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39835 98.76.5..7.5.......46.8....89..........9...3.......21.6..5.7..445..98....7964.... 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39988 98.76.5..7.54.9.......8....6.754....49.8......58.97.4..6......3...67..........2.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #39998 98.76.5..7.54.9.......8....6.754....49.8.6....58.9..4..6......3...67..........2.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #40003 98.76.5..4.7..96....5..8...67.5.....5.9.86....48.7..6..9...........4..3........21 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #41213 98.76.5..4.7..96....5..8...67.5.....5.9.86....48.7..5..9...........4...3.......21 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #41237 98.76.5..7.5.49......8.....6.745....49..86....589...4..6......3...67..........2.1 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #41347 98.76.5..7.5.......46.9....89..........8...3.......21.6..5.7..445..89....7864.... 11.6/1.2/1.2 230514 #41559

There are 6 B10B puzzles:

Code: Select all: 98765.......4..........3...86....92..52....7.......8.557..2.68.2......59.9..6...7 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #25642 98765.......4..........3...86....92..52....7...9...8.557..2.68.2......59....6...7 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #25648 98765.......4..........3...89....75.7.6...8.2.25.....95.9.2.6.72......85....6..9. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #29369 98765.......4..........3...87..6.9...95.2..76..2...85.25.....9..68....27......5.8 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #29398 98765.......4..........3...86....92..52....7...9...8.557..6.28.2......59....2.6.7 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #29420 98765.......4..........3...86....92..52....7.......8.557..6.28.2......59.9..2.6.7 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 #29429

All these puzzles have a non-degenerate tridagon pattern.

[Edit 2023 Nov. 29]: fix the B8B, B9B and B10B lists. In the original post, the numbers of puzzles were correct but the puzzles with these BpB values weren't correctly extracted from the full lists of puzzles. Thanks to Coloin for noticing a problem with the previous B10B list.
.

by **hendrik_monard** » Mon Dec 25, 2023 2:18 pm

I am examining if there could be a role for SHC in my generating script(s). First, I am investigating the genealogy of my high BpB ranking puzzles, especially how the BpB evolves along the paths leading to these puzzles. On the path to one of them I came across this fine specimen:
987......6..8...........5...4.32..51...1.42.8....5834...32.581.....134.........2. B13B
Denis, could there be a bug in SHC, or is it a genuine B13B?

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Tue Dec 26, 2023 3:06 am

hendrik_monard wrote:I am examining if there could be a role for SHC in my generating script(s). First, I am investigating the genealogy of my high BpB ranking puzzles, especially how the BpB evolves along the paths leading to these puzzles. On the path to one of them I came across this fine specimen:
987......6..8...........5...4.32..51...1.42.8....5834...32.581.....134.........2. B13B
Denis, could there be a bug in SHC, or is it a genuine B13B?

Hi Hendrik
Congrats for this great finding.

I have no doubt it's really a B13B.
Of course, no non trivial software can ever be proven bug free. But see section 3.2 of [HCCS] for all the support there is for the correctness of SHC.
The BpB rating is computed by progressively increasing p in T&E(Bp, 1). Which implies that even for levels BpB that have few instances, the cases of lower levels count as validations for level p in T&E(Bp, 1), provided that the computations for B are valid. But the latter have already been widely tested wrt SudoRules.

In the present case (SER = 11.7), no direct proof showing that SudoRules provides the same answer B13B is possible. It would take days of computation (that's why the SHC was developed). But what I've done is run T&E(B5) and I get the same RS as SHC (it is for making this kind of comparisons possible that we have recently added the printing of the RS after each BpB level):

Code: Select all: +----------------+----------------+----------------+ ! 9 8 7 ! 5 34 12 ! 16 36 246 ! ! 6 25 245 ! 8 347 12 ! 179 379 2479 ! ! 13 123 124 ! 4679 679 679 ! 5 8 247 ! +----------------+----------------+----------------+ ! 78 4 689 ! 3 2 679 ! 679 5 1 ! ! 357 35 569 ! 1 679 4 ! 2 679 8 ! ! 127 127 1269 ! 679 5 8 ! 3 4 679 ! +----------------+----------------+----------------+ ! 47 679 3 ! 2 4679 5 ! 8 1 679 ! ! 28 679 28 ! 679 1 3 ! 4 679 5 ! ! 145 1679 15 ! 49 8 679 ! 679 2 3 ! +----------------+----------------+----------------+

After this point, SHC finds NO elimination in T&E(B6) .... T&E(B12).
The first elimination it finds is n7r7c5, which should therefore require T&E(B13); this is what I'm currently testing with SudoRules (using function try-to-eliminate). I'll update this post when the computations are finished. (Of course, it's only a very partial proof.)

If I was you, what I'd now do is scrutinise the whole neighbourhood of this puzzle and of the path that you found leading to it, and try directly to increase SHC.

This example reminds me of a puzzle by Mauricio, with W=31 (and B=19). It appeared very unexpectedly and very far from the largest known W. As of today, nobody knows if one can find still larger values of W or B, and/or close the gap with the known ones. At that time, there was no way of trying to maximise W/B directly; so it more or less fell into oblivion - except for finding a special place in [PBCS].

Regarding the B rating, I think if you find some puzzles in T&E(1) near the above ones, you should not discard them but try to maximise their B rating (still with SHC).

Final remark: this puzzle has a non-degenerate tridagon, as all the puzzles recently found with BpB >7. It has a single guardian - which tends to produce the hardest puzzles.
.

by **hendrik_monard** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 2:40 pm

denis_berthier wrote:If I was you, what I'd now do is scrutinise the whole neighbourhood of this puzzle and of the path that you found leading to it, and try directly to increase SHC.

Hi Denis,
SHC allowed me to identify in the genealogy of some recently identified high BpB puzzles (p > 6) another fifteen B13B puzzles.
The following list contains them all (including the puzzle I posted on December 25th).

Code: Select all: 987......6..8...........5...4.32..51...1.42.8....5834...32.581.....134.........2. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 B13B 987......6..8...........5...4.32..51...1.42.8....5834...32.5.1.....8..2.....134.. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 B13B 98.76.5..7.54.8....64.59...8.6.7..9..79..5....4..8....4.......3....46..........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 B13B 98.76.5..7.54.8....64.59...8.6.7..9..79..5....4..8....6......32....46...........1 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 B13B 98.76.5..7.54.8....64.59...8.6.7..9..7...5....4.98....4.......3....46..........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 B13B 987......6...........85.....4.5.321....42..58....183.4..23..1.5...1...8.....4..32 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 B13B 987......6...........85.....4.5.321....42..58....1.3.4..238.1.5...1...8.....4..32 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 B13B 98.76.5..7.5.486....4......67.95....5.84.6....49.8..5...7..........9..3........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 B13B 98.76.5..7.5.486....4..9...67..5....5.84......49.8..6...7..........9...3.......21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 B13B 98.76.5..7.5.486....4......67.95....5.84......49.8..6...7..........9...3.......21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 B13B 987......6...........85.....4.5.321....42..58....1.3.4..238.1.5...1.2.8.....4..3. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 B13B 98.76.5..7.5.486....4..9...67..5....5.84.6....49.8..5...7..........9..3........21 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 B13B 98.76.5..7.54.8....64.59...8.6.7..9..7...5....4.98....6......32....46...........1 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 B13B 987......6..8...........5...4.32..51...1.42.8....5834...32.581.....1.4.........23 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 B13B 987......6...........85.....4.5.321....42..58....183.4..23..1.5...1.2.8.....4..3. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 B13B 987......6..8...........5...4.32..51...1.42.8....5834...32.5.1.....8..23....1.4.. 11.7/1.2/1.2 230514 B13B

All those puzzles were also present in my 50k list.
I intend to continue concentrating my activities on finding new grids with high potential. In this quest, SHC can certainly play an important role.

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 2:58 pm

hendrik_monard wrote:SHC allowed me to identify in the genealogy of some recently identified high BpB puzzles (p > 6) another fifteen B13B puzzles.
The following list contains them all (including the puzzle I posted on December 25th).
All those puzzles were also present in my 50k list.

Wow, that's quite surprising. I hadn't looked for BpB values above 10 in your 50k list. But now that you noticed them, I can see they were also in my calculations.
What's also surprising is, there's no B12B or B11B.
Probably many new things to find in their vicinity.
.

by **hendrik_monard** » Fri Dec 29, 2023 5:28 am

denis_berthier wrote:What's also surprising is, there's no B12B or B11B.

Hi Denis,
When the list of B13B puzzles is transformed to their solution minlex morphs (list below), it appears that they are all 'siblings'. So it is still early to draw conclusions.
I wouldn't be surprised if coloin's 'pearlisation' technique would generate some more siblings within this 'family'.
BTW, the intermediate results of my generating scripts are promising more high BpB puzzles (p > 6). I expect to produce a new batch towards the end of 2024/Q1.

Code: Select all: 1.3.......57....3669.7..51..76...3..3.9..1.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... B13B 1.3.......57....3669.7..5...76...3.13.9..1.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... B13B 1.3.......571...3669.7..5...76...3.13.9..1.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5...... B13B 1.3.......571...3669.7..5...76...3.13.9.7..6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5...... B13B 1.3.....9.571...3669.7..5...76...3.13.9..1.6.51.....7.....28.......4..9...5...... B13B 1.3.......571...3669.7..5...76...3.13.9....6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... B13B ..3.......571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9....6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... B13B ..3.......571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.7..6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5...... B13B ..3.....9.571...3669.7..51..76...3..3.9..1.6.51.....7.....28.......4..9...5...... B13B ..3.......571...3669.7..51..76...3..3.9..1.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5...... B13B ..3.....9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9....6.51.....7.....28.......4..9...5.1.... B13B ..3.....9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.7..6.51.....7.....28.......4..9...5...... B13B 1.3.....9.571...3669.7..5...76...3.13.9.7..6.51.....7.....28.......4..9...5...... B13B 1.3.....9.57....3669.7..51..76...3..3.9..1.6.51.....7.....28.......4..9...5.1.... B13B 1.3.....9.571...3669.7..5...76...3.13.9....6.51.....7.....28.......4..9...5.1.... B13B 1.3.....9.57....3669.7..5...76...3.13.9..1.6.51.....7.....28.......4..9...5.1.... B13B

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Fri Dec 29, 2023 7:08 am

Hi Hendrik

hendrik_monard wrote:When the list of B13B puzzles is transformed to their solution minlex morphs (list below), it appears that they are all 'siblings'. So it is still early to draw conclusions.

Indeed, they are very close siblings: after expansion by Singles, they are the same (non-minimal but min-expand) puzzle:

Code: Select all: 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1....

Minimals are necessary to produce new puzzles by vicinity search, but ever since expansion by Singles has been introduced into vicinity search, min-expands are the right version to use for their study. This avoids redundant calculations (probably true also at some point in the generation process).
Notice that min-expands are a well defined layer of puzzles, perfectly legitimate as an object of study.

I would suggest that, in addition to the lists of minimals, everybody publish the associated lists of min-expands (like mith has been doing for his T&E(3) puzzles).

BTW, Hendrik, which software are you using for computing the solution-minlex?
.

by **hendrik_monard** » Fri Dec 29, 2023 7:57 am

denis_berthier wrote:
BTW, Hendrik, which software are you using for computing the solution-minlex?

I use gridchecker with the instruction;
sudoku-64.exe -qFN -f%#0c puzzles.txt > solminlex.txt

Note that it is almost identical to the one for minlex. The only difference is that in the argument f%#mc (for minlex), you replace "m" with "0" (zero)

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Fri Dec 29, 2023 11:13 am

hendrik_monard wrote:
denis_berthier wrote:BTW, Hendrik, which software are you using for computing the solution-minlex?

I use gridchecker with the instruction;

Argh! I can't use it. It has x86 code.

by **coloin** » Fri Dec 29, 2023 3:40 pm

sudoku-64 is gsf's software
sudoku-64 -E file.txt > fileexpand.txt gives you a singles expansion ....

gridchecker is dorbichev's program and he has minlexing command
gridchecker --similar --subcanon < file.txt > filecan.txt

they both have a consisent long noted fault/bug - and true min lex is given by this software by swb01 here this is lightning fast by comparison and removes duplicates !!!

For looking at the min-expands I find displaying the puzzle in the min lex grid helps significantly [ edit - i see you have done that] and is bug free.
sudoku-64 -qFN -f%#0c puzzle in minlexgrid

by **coloin** » Fri Dec 29, 2023 5:35 pm

hendrik_monard wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if coloin's 'pearlisation' technique would generate some more siblings within this 'family'

The max pearl expand [ED=11.7/11.7] for the B13B was

Code: Select all: 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1....# 13

adding a clue gave lesser rated than 11.7 puzzles..

Hidden Text: Show

Code: Select all: 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=11.7/11.7/6.6 #13# 123...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=9.1/9.1/2.6 # 2# 1.34..7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=9.0/9.0/2.6 # 0# 1.3.5.7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.2/1.5/1.5 # 2# 1.3..67.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.4/1.5/1.5 # 3# 1.3...789.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=9.5/9.5/2.6 # 2# 1.3...7.94571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=9.2/9.2/6.6 # 2# 1.3...7.9.5718..3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.0/1.2/1.2 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571.9.3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.0/1.5/1.5 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571..23669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=9.7/9.7/6.6 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571...366987..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.1/2.0/2.0 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.73.51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.9/10.6/6.6 # 4# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7.251..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.2/1.2/1.2 # 3# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..514.76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.2/10.2/6.6 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51.276...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=9.1/9.1/6.6 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..768..3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.0/10.0/2.8 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76.9.3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.0/1.2/1.2 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76..43.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=7.2/1.2/1.2 # 0# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3513.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=1.5/1.2/1.2 # 0# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.1389.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=9.1/9.1/6.6 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9571.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=1.5/1.2/1.2 # 0# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.7146.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.1/10.1/6.6 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6251....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=1.5/1.2/1.2 # 0# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.514...97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.2/2.0/2.0 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51.2..97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.2/10.2/2.8 # 3# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51..6.97.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.9/1.5/1.5 # 4# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51...397.....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.9/1.2/1.2 # 4# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....978....28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.2/10.2/6.6 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.7...28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.4/1.2/1.2 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97..3..28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.6/10.6/6.6 # 3# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97...1.28.......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.9/1.2/1.2 # 4# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97....928.......4..9...5.1.... ED=11.6/1.2/1.2 # 6# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....286......4..9...5.1.... ED=10.9/1.2/1.2 # 4# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.4.....4..9...5.1.... ED=1.5/1.5/1.5 # 0# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28..5....4..9...5.1.... ED=1.5/1.2/1.2 # 0# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28...8...4..9...5.1.... ED=10.1/10.1/3.0 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28....6..4..9...5.1.... ED=10.5/10.5/6.6 # 3# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.....2.4..9...5.1.... ED=10.1/1.2/1.2 # 3# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28......34..9...5.1.... ED=10.4/6.6/6.6 # 3# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......45.9...5.1.... ED=10.5/1.2/1.2 # 4# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4.19...5.1.... ED=10.9/1.2/1.2 # 4# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..97..5.1.... ED=10.4/1.2/1.2 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9.9.5.1.... ED=11.6/1.2/1.2 # 6# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9..45.1.... ED=9.1/2.3/2.3 # 0# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...561.... ED=10.4/10.4/3.4 # 3# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.17... ED=11.6/11.0/2.6 # 6# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1.8.. ED=10.0/10.0/3.0 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1..2. ED=10.1/10.1/6.6 # 2# 1.3...7.9.571...3669.7..51..76...3.13.9.71.6.51....97.....28.......4..9...5.1...3 ED=10.5/10.5/6.6 # 3#

removing the redundant clues all possible ways gave your 16 puzzles
gridchecker --similar --removeredundant <test.txt > testmins.txt
there were no twin puzzles as the solution count of the complement puzzle was 1

And I've expanded my cache of many minimal 11.7 puzzles and found these B9B puzzles.
These were seeded mainly from Hendrik's posts and furthur {-1+1} on minimal puzzles.
The new twins produced were furthur porocessed. This had the effect of changing the composition of the 4 boxes - which a {1+1} doesn't tend to do.
They have been furthur expanded to maintain BnB. There were not many new B9B puzzles new to Hendrik's postings.
B9B

Code: Select all: .2345...945.7.9...7.9.23...23..95....75.4.29.9.42.7...3.7............817....7..6.# 9 12.4.6.8....18.2.6....23.41...36....5......6.796.........8.461....61..23..1.328.4# 9 twins2 1...567.9...1.9.366..37.15.....176.3....9..15.1.5.397...1.....7..89......427.....# 9 twins2 ....56.89.5.1.92.6....2.15...851.96....9.8.21....628.53..2...........6..74.6.....# 9 twins2 12....7.94.7...23...97.2.41..16.............3...8.5...31.....277.4...19..92.7.3.4# 9 twins2

B8B

Code: Select all: 123...7.9.56..9....89......2..6.139........21.1....6.7...96.21...12.3.76..2.179.3# 8 1..4.678....18.2.66...27.41.....8.67..6.4.82....6.21.4.61...47..952..............# 8 twins2 1.3.5..8945....13..89.3.5.4..4....938....34.1.31...85..1.6.7...............3.59.8# 8 twins2 1.3.56.8..5718....68.7.3.1..36..8...7.5.3...881.67...........7457............7.52# 8 twins5 12.....89.5..8.23...8...1.52.59...18.318..59.98....3.2...27...........23..234....# 8 twins5 12..56.......892...........27.6..51.3.5...6.7.165...235.2...36.73..6...2.61....7.# 8 twins5 12..56.......892...........27.6..51.3.5...6.7.615...235.2...36.73..6...2.16....7.# 8 twins5 .2..5..89...18.23......25.12..8.531.3...91.25...32.9.8......89.86.......94...8...# 8 twins5

For completeness here are the previously posted puzzles by hendrik in minlex grid form and expanded as much as possible.
Extra clues added increases the liklihood of a twin puzzle and usually increases the number of minimal puzzles from the expand.

B10B by hendrik

Code: Select all: 1.3..67.9.57..9.3669....15..16....9337....5.19.5....7....8.....7316.5.......4....# 10 - with 17 other twin expanded puzzles

Hidden Text: Show

B9B puzzles by hendrik in page 1 posts [and associated twin puzzles]

Code: Select all: .2.4.678....18.2.6.8..27.142......4.3...6....9.5.........6.2.78...81.4.28.2.7.16.# 9 twins2 1.3.5.7.9.57....3669..3.51...13.567.36....1.5.75....93..6..2........39.....8.4...# 9 twins2 12..56..9.571.9...6.972....2.....34.7.....8.....2......7.56....5.2.17.6..619.2...# 9 1.3.5.7.9.57....3669..7.15..165..39.53......17.9...6.5.....2.6...1..5......8.4.1.# 9 1.3.5.7.9.......3669..7.15.....386..3.6.........264...5.9....6773....91..61...5..# 9 1.3.56..9.571.9...69.73.........7.4..3.............82.3.6.95...57...169..1967....# 9 1.3.56....5718..3.68.7.3....3587....8.63.1....1..653.8.6....4.....6.7.........962# 9 twins4 1.34..7.9...1.923.....73.14..67............72875..........479.3.3.9.214....31..27# 9 twins4 1.34..7.9...1.923.....73.14..67............27875..........479.3.3.9.214....31..72# 9 twins4 1...567.9...1.9.366..37.15....96..17.6.7.539.....3.6.5.48..7.....6....7...2..3...# 9 twins4

Page 2 posts
B9Bs

Code: Select all: 1...56..9.571.9...69.73.........7.4..3.............82.3.6.95...57...16...19......# 9 1.3.56....571...3.96.73..5..1539....6.9..15...7.6.......1...4.....9.73..........8# 9 .2.45........89.......3..4.2.4...36..316...7.67....1.23.7...62..12.6.4.7.6.....13# 9 .2..5.......78........32.6..9....45.6.4..5.91.15...2.6.41.....55.2...91.96.5...4.# 9 ..3.5678...718..36...7.35.12.5....1.3..5.....94.....5.....71..87..8.516....63..75# 9 1.3.567...5718....68.3.75....6....5.....6..92....1..4.5.86.....73.5.1....61.38..5# 9 1.3..678..57......68...31.5......5.75...97......245...3......51.65...3.88.1...67.# 9 1.....7.94.7...23...9..2.41..16.............3...8.5...31.....2.7.4...19..92.7...4# 9 twins2 ....56.89.5.1.92.6......15...851.9.....9.8.21....62..53..2...........6..74.......# 9 twins2 1.3.5.78..57...2.3.8.....15......87.7..948...8..6.....3.2...1.851...2.37.78...52.# 9 twins3 1.3...78..571...6368.3..5.1.36...81.51....3.77.8.31..6....92.....5.1........4...8# 9 twins3 1...567.9...1.926.6..72..51.38.......1...5....4......2....6712..619.2..7...51..96# 9 twins3

B8Bs

Code: Select all: ..3.56.8...718....68.7.3.1..36..8...7.5.3...881.67...........7457............7.52# 8 12.....89.5..8.23...8...1.52.59...18.318..5..98....3.2...27...........23..234....# 8 12..56.......892...........27.6..51.3.5...6.7.165...235.2...36.73..6...2.61....7.# 8 .2..5..89...18.23......25.12..8.531.3...91.25...32...8......89.86.......94...8...# 8 these 4 are subpuzzles of the twins5 above 12....7.94.7.....6.69...41.2.6.7.94..14.9..67....4.1.2....65.9.6.2.1.........86..# 8 twins6 - which gave rise to 5 others 12....7.94.7.....6.69...41.2.4.7.96..16.9..47....4.1.2....65.9.6.2.1.........86..# 8 twins6 1.3..6..9.57..9.3669.....1..1.5...935.9...67.73..9.1.5............9.1357...82....# 8 twins6 1.3...78945..................137..6...6.98.71...6.1..3.1.8.739....91.6.88....3.17# 8 twins6 1.3...78945..................637..1...1.98.67...6.1..3.1.8.739....91.6.88....3.71# 8 twins6 1.3...78945..................137..6...6.98.17...6.1..3.1.8.739....91.6.88....3.71# 8 twins6

by **hendrik_monard** » Sun Dec 31, 2023 8:13 am

coloin wrote:sudoku-64 is gsf's software
sudoku-64 -E file.txt > fileexpand.txt gives you a singles expansion ....

gridchecker is dorbichev's program and he has minlexing command
gridchecker --similar --subcanon < file.txt > filecan.txt

they both have a consisent long noted fault/bug - and true min lex is given by this software by swb01 here this is lightning fast by comparison and removes duplicates !!!

For looking at the min-expands I find displaying the puzzle in the min lex grid helps significantly [ edit - i see you have done that] and is bug free.
sudoku-64 -qFN -f%#0c puzzle in minlexgrid

About half a year ago I made a switch from maxlex to minlex which had by then almost become the de facto standard for the sudoku puzzles database.
I was made aware of the fact that gsf's minlexer had a bug. It was made clear to me that this bug was not an impediment for its use. It fulfilled the two key conditions for its usability:
1. For a given puzzle, it always produces the same result, regardless of the isomorph used.
2. For two different puzzles, the outcome will always be different.
In view of the many distributed local databases, a transition to a new standard would in my opinion not be the best way forward.
If ever a new standard is needed, could the solution minlex (minlexgrid mentioned by coloin) perhaps be considered? Are there different software programmes for solution minlex? Is there also a bug issue?
As there is no generally established authority for such matters in this forum, it would be helpful to have the views of experienced members.

PS: Is there somewhere in this forum a list of standard names and/or abbreviations for concepts such as minlex grid or solution minlex etc.?

The New Sudoku Players' Forum

The BxB classification of T&E(2) puzzles

Re: The BpB classification of T&E(2) puzzles

Re: The BpB classification of T&E(2) puzzles

Re: The BpB classification of T&E(2) puzzles

Re: The BpB classification of T&E(2) puzzles

Re: The BpB classification of T&E(2) puzzles

Re: The BpB classification of T&E(2) puzzles

Re: The BpB classification of T&E(2) puzzles

Re: The BpB classification of T&E(2) puzzles

Re: The BpB classification of T&E(2) puzzles

Re: The BpB classification of T&E(2) puzzles

Re: The BpB classification of T&E(2) puzzles

Re: The BpB classification of T&E(2) puzzles

Re: The BpB classification of T&E(2) puzzles

Re: The BpB classification of T&E(2) puzzles

Re: The BpB classification of T&E(2) puzzles