The New Sudoku Players' Forum

by **gsf** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:00 am

Code: Select all: . . 1 . . 2 3 . . . 5 . . 8 . . 6 . 6 . . . . . . . 5 . . . 1 . . . . . . . 2 . 7 . 5 . . . . . . . 8 . . . 8 . . . . . . . 2 . 4 . . 6 . . 7 . . . 9 3 . . 1 . . ED=1.2/1.2/1.2

by **coloin** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:56 am

Code: Select all: +---+---+---+ |..1|..2|3..| |.7.|.6.|.8.| |5..|...|..9| +---+---+---+ |...|3..|...| |..6|.8.|4..| |...|..4|...| +---+---+---+ |7..|...|..5| |.9.|.2.|.7.| |..3|1..|6..| +---+---+---+ ED=9.9/3.4/2.3

:::comment:::
randomly generated 15000 of this pattern, this was the best......but short of the 10.5 diamond on which the pattern is based. Apologies...but I'm sure it will be beaten.

C

by **Mauricio** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:07 am

Code: Select all: +-------+-------+-------+ | . . 1 | . . 2 | 3 . . | | . 4 . | . 5 . | . 6 . | | 6 . . | . . . | . . 7 | +-------+-------+-------+ | . . . | 4 . . | . . . | | . . 5 | . 8 . | 1 . . | | . . . | . . 1 | . . . | +-------+-------+-------+ | 7 . . | . . . | . . 4 | | . 6 . | . 1 . | . 8 . | | . . 3 | 2 . . | 5 . . | +-------+-------+-------+ ED=9.0/9.0/9.0

by **gsf** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:19 am

Code: Select all: . . 1 . . 2 3 . . . 6 . . 5 . . 4 . 7 . . . . . . . 9 . . . 5 . . . . . . . 5 . 1 . 8 . . . . . . . 7 . . . 9 . . . . . . . 7 . 4 . . 8 . . 6 . . . 3 1 . . 2 . . ED=9.5/9.5/9.5

by **Mauricio** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:32 am

Code: Select all: +-------+-------+-------+ | . . 1 | . . 2 | 3 . . | | . 4 . | . 5 . | . 6 . | | 7 . . | . . . | . . 8 | +-------+-------+-------+ | . . . | 5 . . | . . . | | . . 5 | . 4 . | 9 . . | | . . . | . . 8 | . . . | +-------+-------+-------+ | 8 . . | . . . | . . 7 | | . 6 . | . 9 . | . 4 . | | . . 3 | 1 . . | 2 . . | +-------+-------+-------+ ED=9.3/9.3/9.3

by **gsf** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:31 pm

Code: Select all: . . 1 . . 2 3 . . . 6 . . 8 . . 4 . 4 . . . . . . . 9 . . . 9 . . . . . . . 2 . 3 . 7 . . . . . . . 7 . . . 9 . . . . . . . 7 . 4 . . 5 . . 6 . . . 3 7 . . 2 . . ED=2.8/2.8/2.8

by **Mauricio** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:34 pm

Code: Select all: +-------+-------+-------+ | . . 1 | . . 2 | 3 . . | | . 4 . | . 5 . | . 6 . | | 6 . . | . . . | . . 7 | +-------+-------+-------+ | . . . | 1 . . | . . . | | . . 8 | . 3 . | 1 . . | | . . . | . . 8 | . . . | +-------+-------+-------+ | 7 . . | . . . | . . 5 | | . 6 . | . 9 . | . 4 . | | . . 3 | 2 . . | 8 . . | +-------+-------+-------+ ED=9.2/9.2/9.2

by **gsf** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:03 pm

Code: Select all: . . 1 . . 2 3 . . . 6 . . 8 . . 4 . 7 . . . . . . . 9 . . . 4 . . . . . . . 2 . 3 . 8 . . . . . . . 1 . . . 4 . . . . . . . 7 . 7 . . 9 . . 6 . . . 8 7 . . 9 . . ED=6.6/6.6/6.6

by **Mauricio** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:44 pm

Code: Select all: +-------+-------+-------+ | . . 1 | . . 2 | 3 . . | | . 4 . | . 5 . | . 6 . | | 7 . . | . . . | . . 8 | +-------+-------+-------+ | . . . | 4 . . | . . . | | . . 3 | . 2 . | 5 . . | | . . . | . . 9 | . . . | +-------+-------+-------+ | 8 . . | . . . | . . 4 | | . 6 . | . 9 . | . 7 . | | . . 5 | 2 . . | 1 . . | +-------+-------+-------+ ED=9.1/9.1/9.1

by **g.r.emlin** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:44 pm

::: game 0064 status LIGHTNING 2009-01-04+07:42:19-0000 :::

Code: Select all: game 0064 2009-01-03+19:54:00-0000 LIGHTNING duration 11h45m dealer coloin pages 123-124 (open) 3 players ________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1.2/1.2/1.2 gsf 6.6/6.6/6.6 gsf 9.1/9.1/9.1 Mauricio 9.5/9.5/9.5 gsf 1.5/1.2/1.2 coloin 7.1/7.1/7.1 Mauricio 9.2/9.2/9.2 Mauricio 2.8/2.8/2.8 gsf 9.0/9.0/9.0 Mauricio 9.3/9.3/9.3 Mauricio ________________________________________________________________________________________________________ open ratings : 1.7 2.0 2.3 2.5 2.6 3.0 3.2 3.4 3.6 3.8 4.0 4.2 4.4-4.8 5.0-5.2 5.4 5.6-6.2 6.5 6.7-7.0 7.2-8.9 9.4 9.6-10.7 submitter entries score response notes --------- ------- ----- -------- ----- coloin 1 -19 0 dealer gsf 4 210 2h10m diamond*3,highest-rating Mauricio 5 524 36m11s diamond*5,last-entry --------- ------- ----- ----- 3 10 715 diamond*8

by **Pat** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:24 pm

on page 123, coloin wrote:
Do we know approx how many minimal puzzles on average there are for a 21 clue pattern ?
18-puzzle ? <1
19-puzzle 843 [Nick70] [The original pattern gamer !]
20-puzzle 8000 ?
21-puzzle 200000 ?

yes, the 19-clue pattern examined by Nick70 had only 843 minimal puzzles

however, if we consider a pattern with the same number of clues but without symmetry, i'd expect a larger number of puzzles

(though perhaps still too few puzzles for the Patterns Game)

by **JPF** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:56 pm

gsf wrote:happy new year
I just posted a Christmas gift
SudokuExplainer.jar 1.2.1.3 serate with two new options based on some suggestions from earlier last year
--diamond terminates the rating if the puzzle cannot be a diamond (non-diamonds will have ER/EP/ED matching 20.0/*/*)
--pearl terminates the rating if the puzzle cannot be a pearl (non-pearls will have ER/EP/ED matching 20.0/*/*)

Thanks gsf for the Christmas gift

It will save a lot of time.
I'll test it.

Happy new year to all the Patterns gamers.

JPF

by **JPF** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:02 pm

::: comment :::

coloin wrote:Do we know approx how many minimal puzzles on average there are for a 21 clue pattern ?

18-puzzle ? <1
19-puzzle 843 [Nick70] [The original pattern gamer !]
20-puzzle 8000 ?
21-puzzle 200000 ?

It's not clear to me what you mean by "average" ; your numbers look a bit like oranges and apples.

For instance, for the Nick70's 19 clues-patterns there are 843 minimal puzzles.
but it's not true for a random 19 clues pattern ; some doesn't contain any puzzle, some contain more, etc...
I guess that most of the 19 clues patterns are not valid*.

For 17 clues, there is at least one pattern with 29 different puzzles.

Is the number you are looking for (n clues) this one :

Total number of different minimal puzzles/ Total number of different patterns

or

Total number of different minimal puzzles/ Total number of different valid patterns

or something else ?

* a valid pattern being a pattern with at least one valid puzzle.

JPF

by **Pat** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:23 am

the Patterns Game still does require symmetry

on page 116, Pat wrote:i'd like to propose a pattern which is almost-symmetrical
( i.e. adding just 1 clue would make it symmetrical )

by **gsf** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:13 am

::: comment :::

Pat wrote:
and is symmetry considered for such an average?
the Patterns Game still does require symmetry
on page 116, Pat wrote:i'd like to propose a pattern which is almost-symmetrical
( i.e. adding just 1 clue would make it symmetrical )

thanks to a suggestion by ronk just a few days ago my solver version 2009-01-01 computes this
-f#oc lists the original grid dihedral symmetry type and distance from symmetry, minimizing distance and dihedral order
in the form symmetry-distance -- a symmetric puzzle will have distance 0, a 1-off symmetric puzzle will have distance 1