Maximum number of clues for a given SE rating

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Postby 999_Springs » Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:40 pm

Eioru wrote:
Code: Select all
.62.78.95
8.93.56.7
57.69..8.
.95784.6.
7.6..985.
.8.5.67.9
.5796...8
9.8..75.6
6..85.97.             ER=9.0         49 clues

It's only got 48 clues.

I had a bit of fun with it...

Code: Select all
.62.78.95
8.93.56.7
57.69..8.
.95784.6.
7.6..985.
.8.5.67.9
.5796...8
938..75.6
6..85.97.

ER=7.9, 49 clues (sorry tarek)

Code: Select all
.62.78.95
8.93.56.7
57.69..8.
.95784.6.
7.6..985.
.8.5.67.9
.5796...8
9.8..75.6
6..85397.

ER=8.4, 49 clues

I also found another non-isomorphic 67-clue puzzle rated 1.5.
Once upon a time I was a teenager who was active on here 2007-2011
ocean and eleven should have paired up to make a sudoku-solving duo called Ocean's Eleven
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Posts: 466
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Postby Eioru » Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:01 am

Code: Select all
639724158
72...6439
.4..3.267
46..7.382
.932.8746
287643591
376482915
854197623
912365874             ER=6.6         69 clues
Eioru
 
Posts: 182
Joined: 16 August 2006

Postby Eioru » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:16 pm

Code: Select all
764.8.391
539714628
821...754
195.7.462
248956137
673.4.589
..6.2.9..
.5.....4.
....3....             ER=5.0         51 clues
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Joined: 16 August 2006

Postby coloin » Sat May 09, 2009 2:26 pm

That 5.0 was found from the patterns game results !
Code: Select all
700080001009704600020000050100000002040906030000000000006020900050000040000030000 #  56    5.0/1.5/1.5 + gsf


So this 4.7 from the next game.....
Code: Select all
0000010000001203400050000060100000005060000030002604100070080050400070002000000000 #  70    4.7/1.2/1.2 - m_b_metcalf

expands to
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|.24|.16|5.3|
|6.1|253|4..|
|35.|.4.|261|
+---+---+---+
|14.|...|625|
|.6.|125|.34|
|5.2|6.4|1..|
+---+---+---+
|27.|481|.56|
|4.6|579|.12|
|.15|362|74.|
+---+---+---+  SE 4.7   55 clues
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Posts: 1748
Joined: 05 May 2005

Postby 999_Springs » Sat May 09, 2009 2:59 pm

Found by almost random aimless clicking with my mouse on SE:

Code: Select all
1.8|469|.53
5.6|1.3|9..
493|2.5|1.6
---+---+---
715|942|638
839|651|...
264|837|591
---+---+---
647|528|319
381|794|265
952|316|..7 SE 1.5, 68 clues


As a result of this "random aimless clicking", my mouse now has a red light flashing on it, indicating that it's low on battery. Maybe I shouldn't have done that.
Once upon a time I was a teenager who was active on here 2007-2011
ocean and eleven should have paired up to make a sudoku-solving duo called Ocean's Eleven
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Posts: 466
Joined: 27 January 2007
Location: In the toilet, flushing down springs, one by one.

Postby 999_Springs » Mon May 18, 2009 10:26 am

Code: Select all
6..3.2.59
52..4..1.
..35..2..
3..1945..
.1.658.3.
..5273..1
..4..51..
.3..2..45
75.4....8    10.4/10.4/9.4 38 clues

6..3.2.59
52..4..1.
..35..2..
3..1945.2
.1.658.3.
..5273..1
..4..51..
.3..2..45
75.4.1..8    9.3/9.3/9.2 40 clues

6..3.2.59
52..4..1.
..35..2..
3..1945.2
.1.658.3.
4.5273..1
..4..51..
.3..2..45
75.4.1..8    9.2/9.2/9.2 41 clues

4..|153|.2.
..3|.6.|45.
.5.|.4.|..3
---+---+---
1..|6.5|.74
..4|.3.|5..
5..|4.7|.8.
---+---+---
347|58.|.1.
6..|2.4|735
..5|37.|.4.   8.1/8.1/2.6 40 clues

4..|153|82.
..3|.6.|45.
.5.|.4.|..3
---+---+---
1..|6.5|.74
..4|.3.|5..
5..|4.7|.8.
---+---+---
347|58.|.1.
6..|2.4|735
..5|37.|.48   8.0/8.0/2.6 42 clues

(the first three are based on Mauricio's 37 clue)
(the last two are based on JPF's 8.1 from patterns game 78)
Once upon a time I was a teenager who was active on here 2007-2011
ocean and eleven should have paired up to make a sudoku-solving duo called Ocean's Eleven
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Re: Maximum number of clues for a given SE rating

Postby m_b_metcalf » Fri May 28, 2010 2:07 pm

Was this topic still active? Is there a summary of progress thus far? Here's one I found recently.

Code: Select all
 
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
 8 7 5 . 2 . 4 1 6
 9 4 6 . . . 2 5 3
 6 . . . . . . . 7
 7 . 9 . 3 . 1 . 2
 4 . . . . . . . 8
 5 6 4 . 7 . 8 9 1
 2 9 8 . . . 3 7 5
 3 1 7 5 9 8 6 2 4   ED=7.2/4.2/4.2, 53 clues, 7.2 reached at 54 clues

Regards,

Mike Metcalf
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Re: Maximum number of clues for a given SE rating

Postby 999_Springs » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:27 pm

eight year bump and first post in non-offtopic for me since may 2014. i was checking out these forums again and noticed that dobrichev posted some non minimal hard 48 clue puzzles here where all the digits 5,6,7,8,9 are filled in, and that blows all previous competition of this topic right out of the water. his puzzles go all the way up to 10.4 and you can add extra clues to some of them to fill in the lower difficulty levels. his puzzles contribute to 2.8, 4.7, 7.4, 7.8-8.2, 8.4-9.5, and 9.7-10.4.

many of these puzzles are taken from his other post here where he gives an example of one puzzle per skfr rating. unfortunately he says he's lost all the rest of the puzzles since then so there's no better way to fill in the gaps. in particular because of skfr rating differences with se, there is nothing in his collection at 9.6.

i kept an old word doc containing all the puzzles with records with more detail than eioru's old posts, and i also found a few improvements to 3.8, 4.5, 4.6, 4.8, 5.2, 5.7, 6.5, and 6.8. some of these, like 5.7, were from me messing around with raw pencilmark grids to see if i could get a combination of pencilmarks to give the corresponding technique in se without any single eliminations. it wasn't in a very systematic way, just done by hand when bored. others were trivial improvements on existing puzzles, like my 6.8 is daj's puzzle with 2 cells removed from the pencilmark grid. i also created separate categories for 5.0 (quad) and 5.0 (UL10) as they're very different techniques.

according to my notes, the patterns game provided 4.9 (champagne) 5.0UL10 (joel64) 5.1 (champagne) 5.8 (gsf) 5.9 (gsf) and 6.0 (joel64). my 4.8 is champagne's 4.9 with cells removed. but these notes are from forever ago so i have no details of which game or where they came from or if extra cells were added or removed. also there's a new 10.5 from patrice that i have absolutely no memory at all of where it comes from. also according to my notes the 4.0 puzzle comes directly from the metro, which is a trashy tabloid newspaper found left behind everywhere on bus seats throughout england. what the hell, really?

puzzles below.
Hidden Text: Show
ER |clues
----+-------------
1.0 | 80 |
1.2 | 77 |
1.5 | 68 | 1.8469.535.61.39..4932.51.6715942638839651...264837591647528319381794265952316..7
1.7 | 63 | 568749132791283645423165.9.6143..52.235.14..69875264131764.2.5..596.12.4.42.5..61
2.0 | 69 | 437691825268537941159842763892..5.3.615..3.8.743..8.5.326789514574316298981254376
2.3 | 64 | 327415698159862347684...25194....17571.....2353...1.69893..4716475186932261937584
2.5 | 61 | ...49.185..41..937.91.73642...7..451.1..4.273.4.231869459617328182354796376928514
2.6 | 66 | 219356784843..76596574982..19874.5.64325619787658.9.4.976.854..3219748655846...97
2.8 | 60 | 85.79263.673814925..9356.8778.5.9.6.9.56.3.78..61785495.7.81.96.9..6785.468935712
3.0 | 61 | 54....387..3.7.659679853421..5.3.946.6....735.34..5812257389164498516273316247598
3.2 | 63 | 18.2.79.5.59..1827.72589.1.7186245932649531789357182..89.1.57.2521.76.89.47892.51
3.4 | 57 | ..2...4131...2.689...1..257.1927.36572....891....91724985742136237916548641385972
3.6 | 54 | ......387....7.659.798.3421..5.3.946.6....735.....5812257389164498516273316247598
3.8 | 59 | 415.67.8967.89.4.589.4.5.67.6974285.287.596.4.546.89727.19845.69.85.674.546.7..98
4.0 | 50 | .4.731.9.1........9.78.....4863579127529148363192685475.31824.9..1.......94673.5.
4.2 | 70 | 96173254884395672172581463919467385268752.3.4352..8.67419385276238.67..55762...83
4.4 | 66 | 3495812676283975145714629384537296817861..492912.4.753165..4..92379...46894.....5
4.5 | 67 | 13524678926...75344.735.21665..3.1277235614988.1.726535..623971372..4865916785342
4.6 | 65 | 31524678942...75636.735.24125..3.1768365714927.1.623585..623917.72.84635.637.5824
4.7 | 64 | 9768125..813594726.5.376189768923415..516789..91458.676.97.1.585.72896.118.6.597.
4.8 | 56 | 1.7..2..429347.5.8.46....27.72349..63698..4724.1267..3714...235935724681628..3749
4.9 | 54 | 1.4..7..293742.5.8.26....47.79362..44138592766.2714..334....72.79824.63.26..73489
5.0Quad | 51 | 764.8.391539714628821...754195.7.462248956137673.4.589..6.2.9...5.....4.....3....
5.0UL10 | 63 | .1582.73.37.41.52828.735.6.867241395193658247542973.8.75.3.281..381.7.52.21584.73
5.1 | 50 | .29.58..15.81.2.9....349258..4.86..2..1.27.8.852413967..5.3.829.83295.7629.8..3.5
5.2 | 61 | .285.9437357.4.8.949.3785.2.73..4928..98..374842793651784.36.952..9857439354.7.86
5.4 | 49 | 632145978817.92..4.4..87.1....85....16.274......96....481529.6.753416..9296738.4.
5.6 | 70 | 12345678945678912378913256423.9.58.66.52.893.8973612453625174985.86943.29..82365.
5.7 | 65 | 16324578942...73565.736.12421..3.567736..24988.5.762133..621975671..3842952784631
5.8 | 62 | .617924.323.645.7.4.73182.66.2873.45.7...463.3.4..67..786431529145289367923567814
5.9 | 64 | 176238594845179362932...7184573...81281.5..366938...75728...643569483127314.2.859
6.0 | 60 | 169238574842..5963573.9.82179.....1642..6.39563...9.87956...142317942658284.5.739
6.1 | 60 | 528...341931524786476381592.19...85..64...17..53...62.195438267382976415647...938
6.2 | 64 | 259641738743985126681372..4896513247537264...412897...92473....37815.4.216542..7.
6.5 | 61 | 1.87.3649634.19..7..74861.3316872495785941362.4.3657185716.89.446...7..18.31.4.76
6.6 | 69 | 63972415872...6439.4..3.26746..7.382.932.8746287643591376482915854197623912365874
6.7 | 64 | 12.689.7586.735..175.142...385274169942561738671398.5.438926517596417...217853...
6.8 | 64 | 6..1..38..3.5.8.1..183...9...1723846243816759876459123127934568369285471485671932
6.9 | 65 | ..2.4.658....6.42346.25.971.4.532769926487135...619284685124397319876542274395816
7.0 | 63 | .134.7825..48.263128.1.3947....243183429187568.1.36294429671583.382451.91..3894.2
7.1 | 65 | 642319578187...439359...261914283657276...8935389..142721495386493...715865.3.924
7.2 | 65 | .6..92.84..4.16.35....54.96126935478759428361843167952...243617632571849417689523
7.3 | 61 | 371542986682...345459...217914376528768...13.523...76.135984672247...893896...451
7.4 | 50 | 9785..6..5..6.7.98.6..98.5789..567...567...89..7.8956.7..8.59466.597.821.8926.375
7.5 | 53 | .5....217....5.8348..3..659..8...57127....946......382582941763746523198931786425
7.6 | 57 | .45.67.896.78.94.589.45.67.4..57.896.69..8547578946123.5479..6878.6.495.9.6.857.4
7.7 | 57 | 4.5.67.8967..894.589.4.567.568.94..77.45..8969..67854.15794..682498.675.38675.9.4
7.8 | 56 | 59.86.7..86...7.95.475.968271892.5.6934156278256.789..62.78..59.85.9..67.796.582.
7.9 | 55 | 95.76.8..86...9.75..78.596268..9.5.7.2567..89.795.862.7164532985.8927..629.18675.
8.0 | 53 | 95.76.8..86...9.75..78.596.68..9.5.7.2567..89.795.862.7164532985.8927..6.9.18675.
8.1 | 50 | 6857.29..71.95..86.49.86.5789.6.5.7..56..78.9.3789.56.96.5..7.852..7869..78.69..5
8.2 | 51 | 57196.8..86.3.7.953.98.567.78.59..6.9.54.67.8..678..596..2589.7.976..58..58179..6
8.3 | 58 | ....472969...8.45747.5.9831..4...789.9...8164....94523549876312638412975721935648
8.4 | 54 | 59.86.7..86...7.95.475.968.7189..5.6934156278256.789..62.78..59.85.9..67.796.582.
8.5 | 54 | 59.86.7..86...7.95.475.968.7189..5.6934156278256.7891.62.78..59.85.9..67.796.58..
8.6 | 48 | 9758..6..6..97.8.5.8..56.7989.5..467.567.891...7.6958.76..9..585.86.729...9.857.6
8.7 | 48 | 98.75.6..6729.45.8..5.68.9789.5.67...56..7.89..7891.5656...987.7.9.85.6...867.9.5
8.8 | 54 | 59.86.7..86...7.95.475.968.7189..5.6934156278256.789..62.78..59.8529..67.796.58..
8.9 | 53 | 57.96.8..86...7.953.98.567.78.59..6.9.5..67.81.678..596132589472976..58.458.79..6
9.0 | 53 | 7956..8..813.95.76246.87.9567.8.9.5.92.56.78.358.7.6.95627..9.8.379.856..89.56..7
9.1 | 51 | 57.96.8..86...7.953.98.567.78.59..6.9.5..67.81.678..596..2589472976..58.458.79..6
9.2 | 52 | 95.76.8..86...9.75..78.596.68..9.5.7..567..89.795.862.7164532985.8927..6.9.18675.
9.3 | 48 | 8756..9..61..98.75.49.75.8678...956.9..5.67.8.5678...959..638.7..785.69..689.7.5.
9.4 | 48 | 97.68.53.68.5...97..5.796.889..56.7..56..78.94.789..5656.71.98.7.9.68..5..89.576.
9.5 | 50 | 7956..8..81..95.76.46.87.9567.8.9.5.92.56.78..58.7.6.956.73.9.8.379.856..89.56..7
9.6
9.7 | 48 | 9875..6..5..76..98.62.89.578.9.567.3.56..7.89.7.89.56.7.5.489.66.89.5.7..9.67.8.5
9.8 | 48 | 9685.27.45..9768..7...8.59668..9..57..56.7.89.79.586..8.67.59...5..69.78.978.3.65
9.9 | 49 | 8759..6..6..87..59..9.65.7878...95.6932456781.5678..9.5.8..796..6.59.8.7.976.8..5
10.0| 49 | 8756..9..61..98.75.49.75.8678...956.92.5.67.8.5678...959..6.8.7.3785.69..689.7.5.
10.1| 51 | 95.76.8..86...9.75..78.596.68..9.5.7..567..89.795.86..7164532985.8927..6.9.18675.
10.2| 49 | 6857..9..71395..86249.86.5789.6.5.7..56..78.9..789.56.96.5..7.85...7869..78.69..5
10.3| 49 | 57.96.8..86...7.953.98.567.78.59..6.9.5..67.81.678..596..258947.976..58..58.79..6
10.4| 49 | 7956..8..81..95.76.46.87.9567.8.9.5.92.56.78..58.7.6.956.7..9.8.379.856..89.56..7
10.5| 34 | ..3..2.46...3..82.2...6.3.7.2...843...7..3..23..92.....925..6.353.2.6...7.6.3.2..
11.2| 37 | 6....2.5952..4..1...35..2..3..1945...1.658.3...5273..1..4..51...3..2..4575.4....8

if anyone feels like they would like to contribute more to this topic, you're very welcome to. or not, if you feel this thread has been brought seamlessly to a natural conclusion after dobrichev's puzzles. why am i on a sudoku forum again i haven't been here in 4 years why am i doing this
Once upon a time I was a teenager who was active on here 2007-2011
ocean and eleven should have paired up to make a sudoku-solving duo called Ocean's Eleven
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Posts: 466
Joined: 27 January 2007
Location: In the toilet, flushing down springs, one by one.

Re: Maximum number of clues for a given SE rating

Postby enxio27 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:43 pm

999_Springs wrote:why am i on a sudoku forum again i haven't been here in 4 years why am i doing this

Whatever the reason, it's good to see you here again. :D
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Posts: 484
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Re: Maximum number of clues for a given SE rating

Postby 999_Springs » Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:24 am

champagne wrote:
Code: Select all
1....73..
.2..3..4.
..56....7
..472....
.8.5.....
9....38..
7....2..3
.9.....5.
..2...6.. ED=5.1/1.2/1.2

reduces to this
Code: Select all
149|257|3..
627|83.|54.
835|6.4|2.7
---+---+---
564|728|.3.
283|5..|...
971|463|825
---+---+---
756|..2|..3
.98|..6|.52
.12|..5|6.. SE 5.1, 55 clues


edit:
papy999 wrote:::: more :::
Code: Select all
1..2....3....1.2....23...4.2.5.3...1.6.7..5.......6....7..2.6....8....7.3..6....4  ED=4.9/1.2/1.2

reduces to this
Code: Select all
1..|2..|953
...|51.|28.
.52|3..|14.
---+---+---
2.5|.38|761
.61|7.2|538
...|156|492
---+---+---
574|823|619
628|..1|375
319|675|824 SE 4.9, 59 clues

and if you remove 2 cells from the unique loop you get
Code: Select all
1..|2..|953
...|51.|28.
.52|3..|14.
---+---+---
2.5|.38|761
.61|.72|538
...|156|492
---+---+---
574|823|619
329|641|875
618|795|324 SE 4.8, 61 clues
Once upon a time I was a teenager who was active on here 2007-2011
ocean and eleven should have paired up to make a sudoku-solving duo called Ocean's Eleven
999_Springs
 
Posts: 466
Joined: 27 January 2007
Location: In the toilet, flushing down springs, one by one.

Re: Maximum number of clues for a given SE rating

Postby qiuyanzhe » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:11 am

*EDIT:I mistakenly skipped 999_Spring's update this year. So the example puzzle is fruitless, but the solving method still works. I have set the original post hidden and let the hidden text out.
//hidden: an SE 9.1 puzzle with 48 givens,similar to 999991110 pattern but a bit different,with link of "human-logical"solving path.
Hidden Text: Show
Original puzzle (a 17-clue puzzle):
Code: Select all
.5.6...........73....1.........7.8...6.....5.1........7...4.2....4.3.......5...6.

Source:http://tieba.baidu.com/p/5491647718, along with a human-logical path to solve such puzzles.
Bottleneck:
Code: Select all
351|6.7|9..
..6|.5.|731
47.|1.3|6.5
---+---+---
5..|.71|8.6
.67|3..|15.
1..|.65|37.
---+---+---
7.5|.46|2.3
6.4|73.|5..
...|51.|467
Some of my friends and I found that, In most of the time, puzzles of such form have surprisingly high difficulty rating.
For example, I once made(or precisely, discovered) a Jigsaw Antiknight Sudoku(Antiknight means cells with distance √5 cannot contain same digits)--it may be much too off the topic..but I'd like to share:
Code: Select all
AAABBB with givens ......
AACCBB             ......
ACCCCB             ......
DDDDDD             ......
EEEEEE             ......
FFFFFF             123456

We couldn't find a logical path to directly solve the puzzle, but if we move the givens to row2, the puzzle is easy, then by making morphisms to make row6 back to 123456 we could get the solution.(related posts:http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3578304554)btw many small jigsaw grids have similar properties.
For the SE9.1 puzzle, when reached the bottleneck, ignore 289 in column 7, then add 289 in column 1, the puzzle becomes SE2.6 .

And for the first puzzle in 999_Spring's link, 1234s are in column2. By changing the places of those digits(to be in any row/column/box)difficulty varies from 7.6(R1)to 10.4(C2,as in the link. That post says difficulty=10.3, never mind:P )
qiuyanzhe
 
Posts: 75
Joined: 21 August 2017
Location: China

Re: Maximum number of clues for a given SE rating

Postby qiuyanzhe » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:51 am

999_Springs wrote:5.0Quad | 51 | 764.8.391539714628821...754195.7.462248956137673.4.589..6.2.9...5.....4.....3....

This 5.0Quad can be optimized.
My SE says merging 12&25 pairs into 15pair, and merging 38&369 into 689, does not change difficulty.
New puzzle has 55 givens.
Code: Select all
123754689548916732679283154861342597735...421294.7.368..6.2.9...5.....4.....3....

To visualize the grids:
Hidden Text: Show
Code: Select all
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 7      6      4      | 25     8      25     | 3      9      1      |
| 5      3      9      | 7      1      4      | 6      2      8      |
| 8      2      1      | 36     69     39     | 7      5      4      |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 1      9      5      | 38     7      38     | 4      6      2      |
| 2      4      8      | 9      5      6      | 1      3      7      |
| 6      7      3      | 12     4      12     | 5      8      9      |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 34     18     6      | 1458   2      1578   | 9      17     35     |
| 39     5      27     | 168    69     1789   | 28     4      36     |
| 49     18     27     | 14568  3      15789  | 28     17     56     |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+

+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 1      2      3      | 7      5      4      | 6      8      9      |
| 5      4      8      | 9      1      6      | 7      3      2      |
| 6      7      9      | 2      8      3      | 1      5      4      |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 8      6      1      | 3      4      2      | 5      9      7      |
| 7      3      5      | 68     69     89     | 4      2      1      |
| 2      9      4      | 15     7      15     | 3      6      8      |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 34     18     6      | 1458   2      1578   | 9      17     35     |
| 39     5      27     | 168    69     1789   | 28     4      36     |
| 49     18     27     | 14568  3      15789  | 28     17     56     |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+


btw that UL10 bottleneck worths 8+ to me.. That puzzle was built on a 4-skyscraper, while the UL10 is definitely harder than the SE6.6 skys for us to spot!
qiuyanzhe
 
Posts: 75
Joined: 21 August 2017
Location: China

Re: Maximum number of clues for a given SE rating

Postby 999_Springs » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:30 pm

bump

i'm eventually hoping to do an exhaustive search of the pattern
Code: Select all
xxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxx
xxx...xxx
xx.....xx
xx.....xx
xx.....xx
xxx...xxx
xxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxx 60 clues

(or something similar, like with the 3 cells in c4 moved to r8c456) to see what comes up. i think eioru tried to do something similar to this a while back in all the earlier posts as a lot of his puzzles have almost the same pattern that look like this e.g. 2.3, 6.1, 6.9. it's sort of like playing the patterns game but you want as many clues as possible and you want puzzles that are not pearls or diamonds

so far i have

Code: Select all
123948657
485617923
9672..814
87..2..96
23...6.81
65.....42
316...275
592371468
748562139  3.0/63

123948657
467315982
895...314
984..3.76
37.4...29
25.....43
642...735
538672491
719534268  6.0/63

this puzzle has 2 bug3's in it, one in the block with a quad (6.0) and the other in the row with a pair (5.8). se finds both as you can see by pressing get next hint, but plays the quad in the box first for some reason. skfr rates it 5.8

Code: Select all
.61..452.
298...614
4.561298.
.42...738
..6...49.
98....16.
62..78351
85.1..276
.1.2..849  5.3/48

felt like showcasing my lovely patterns game surprise in here :) to my knowledge the first 5.3 ever found

Code: Select all
947521683
128763549
653984127
296...374
731642958
584397216
..5.794.2
..24..79.
4792..8..  6.2/65

arkietech's daily from december 2

Code: Select all
483126795
159..7682
267589341
5268..91.
7189.245.
394...82.
671298534
942...178
835...269  5.8/64

based on 1to9only's 5.8/2.6/2.6 from the patterns game that i dealt - it reduces to 62 clues but you can get rid of the 36 pair in block 9. an exhaustive search of the pattern at the top of the post (+1 clue) would have found this one

here are some honourable mentions from the pattern search
Hidden Text: Show
123895467489617235567...8198741...96931....82256.8..41345...178612378954798541623 7.2/65 (tie)
123895467487361925956..7381895....7427.....9363.7.9.52768...219319672548542918736 6.8/64 (tie)
123965847489371256567..8319846..3.759.2..6.833.1.8..62218...634695834721734612598 6.9/65 (tie) (9 cells in the y-cycle, not just 8)
123895647489617235567...981945....76872....93316....52738...514294..1368651348729 7.3/61 (tie)
123978456489615237567...981894....75271.5..93356....24935...742642...518718542369 7.0/61 (10 cell bidirectional y-cycle, not m-ring)


best puzzles so far (not in a spoiler this time so it doesn't get skipped over)
updated 3.0 4.8 4.9 5.0Q 5.1 5.3 5.8 6.0 6.2

ER |clues
----+-------------
1.0 | 80 |
1.2 | 77 |
1.5 | 68 | 1.8469.535.61.39..4932.51.6715942638839651...264837591647528319381794265952316..7
1.7 | 63 | 568749132791283645423165.9.6143..52.235.14..69875264131764.2.5..596.12.4.42.5..61
2.0 | 69 | 437691825268537941159842763892..5.3.615..3.8.743..8.5.326789514574316298981254376
2.3 | 64 | 327415698159862347684...25194....17571.....2353...1.69893..4716475186932261937584
2.5 | 61 | ...49.185..41..937.91.73642...7..451.1..4.273.4.231869459617328182354796376928514
2.6 | 66 | 219356784843..76596574982..19874.5.64325619787658.9.4.976.854..3219748655846...97
2.8 | 60 | 85.79263.673814925..9356.8778.5.9.6.9.56.3.78..61785495.7.81.96.9..6785.468935712
3.0 | 63 | 1239486574856179239672..81487..2..9623...6.8165.....42316...275592371468748562139
3.2 | 63 | 18.2.79.5.59..1827.72589.1.7186245932649531789357182..89.1.57.2521.76.89.47892.51
3.4 | 57 | ..2...4131...2.689...1..257.1927.36572....891....91724985742136237916548641385972
3.6 | 54 | ......387....7.659.798.3421..5.3.946.6....735.....5812257389164498516273316247598
3.8 | 59 | 415.67.8967.89.4.589.4.5.67.6974285.287.596.4.546.89727.19845.69.85.674.546.7..98
4.0 | 50 | .4.731.9.1........9.78.....4863579127529148363192685475.31824.9..1.......94673.5.
4.2 | 70 | 96173254884395672172581463919467385268752.3.4352..8.67419385276238.67..55762...83
4.4 | 66 | 3495812676283975145714629384537296817861..492912.4.753165..4..92379...46894.....5
4.5 | 67 | 13524678926...75344.735.21665..3.1277235614988.1.726535..623971372..4865916785342
4.6 | 65 | 31524678942...75636.735.24125..3.1768365714927.1.623585..623917.72.84635.637.5824
4.7 | 64 | 9768125..813594726.5.376189768923415..516789..91458.676.97.1.585.72896.118.6.597.
4.8 | 61 | 1..2..953...51.28..523..14.2.5.38761.61.72538...156492574823619329641875618795324
4.9 | 59 | 1..2..953...51.28..523..14.2.5.38761.617.2538...156492574823619628..1375319675824
5.0Quad | 55 | 123754689548916732679283154861342597735...421294.7.368..6.2.9...5.....4.....3....
5.0UL10 | 63 | .1582.73.37.41.52828.735.6.867241395193658247542973.8.75.3.281..381.7.52.21584.73
5.1 | 55 | 1492573..62783.54.8356.42.7564728.3.2835.....971463825756..2..3.98..6.52.12..56..
5.2 | 61 | .285.9437357.4.8.949.3785.2.73..4928..98..374842793651784.36.952..9857439354.7.86
5.3 | 48 | .61..452.298...6144.561298..42...738..6...49.98....16.62..7835185.1..276.1.2..849
5.4 | 49 | 632145978817.92..4.4..87.1....85....16.274......96....481529.6.753416..9296738.4.
5.6 | 70 | 12345678945678912378913256423.9.58.66.52.893.8973612453625174985.86943.29..82365.
5.7 | 65 | 16324578942...73565.736.12421..3.567736..24988.5.762133..621975671..3842952784631
5.8 | 64 | 483126795159..76822675893415268..91.7189.245.394...82.671298534942...178835...269
5.9 | 64 | 176238594845179362932...7184573...81281.5..366938...75728...643569483127314.2.859
6.0 | 63 | 123948657467315982895...314984..3.7637.4...2925.....43642...735538672491719534268
6.1 | 60 | 528...341931524786476381592.19...85..64...17..53...62.195438267382976415647...938
6.2 | 65 | 947521683128763549653984127296...374731642958584397216..5.794.2..24..79.4792..8..
6.5 | 61 | 1.87.3649634.19..7..74861.3316872495785941362.4.3657185716.89.446...7..18.31.4.76
6.6 | 69 | 63972415872...6439.4..3.26746..7.382.932.8746287643591376482915854197623912365874
6.7 | 64 | 12.689.7586.735..175.142...385274169942561738671398.5.438926517596417...217853...
6.8 | 64 | 6..1..38..3.5.8.1..183...9...1723846243816759876459123127934568369285471485671932
6.9 | 65 | ..2.4.658....6.42346.25.971.4.532769926487135...619284685124397319876542274395816
7.0 | 63 | .134.7825..48.263128.1.3947....243183429187568.1.36294429671583.382451.91..3894.2
7.1 | 65 | 642319578187...439359...261914283657276...8935389..142721495386493...715865.3.924
7.2 | 65 | .6..92.84..4.16.35....54.96126935478759428361843167952...243617632571849417689523
7.3 | 61 | 371542986682...345459...217914376528768...13.523...76.135984672247...893896...451
7.4 | 50 | 9785..6..5..6.7.98.6..98.5789..567...567...89..7.8956.7..8.59466.597.821.8926.375
7.5 | 53 | .5....217....5.8348..3..659..8...57127....946......382582941763746523198931786425
7.6 | 57 | .45.67.896.78.94.589.45.67.4..57.896.69..8547578946123.5479..6878.6.495.9.6.857.4
7.7 | 57 | 4.5.67.8967..894.589.4.567.568.94..77.45..8969..67854.15794..682498.675.38675.9.4
7.8 | 56 | 59.86.7..86...7.95.475.968271892.5.6934156278256.789..62.78..59.85.9..67.796.582.
7.9 | 55 | 95.76.8..86...9.75..78.596268..9.5.7.2567..89.795.862.7164532985.8927..629.18675.
8.0 | 53 | 95.76.8..86...9.75..78.596.68..9.5.7.2567..89.795.862.7164532985.8927..6.9.18675.
8.1 | 50 | 6857.29..71.95..86.49.86.5789.6.5.7..56..78.9.3789.56.96.5..7.852..7869..78.69..5
8.2 | 51 | 57196.8..86.3.7.953.98.567.78.59..6.9.54.67.8..678..596..2589.7.976..58..58179..6
8.3 | 58 | ....472969...8.45747.5.9831..4...789.9...8164....94523549876312638412975721935648
8.4 | 54 | 59.86.7..86...7.95.475.968.7189..5.6934156278256.789..62.78..59.85.9..67.796.582.
8.5 | 54 | 59.86.7..86...7.95.475.968.7189..5.6934156278256.7891.62.78..59.85.9..67.796.58..
8.6 | 48 | 9758..6..6..97.8.5.8..56.7989.5..467.567.891...7.6958.76..9..585.86.729...9.857.6
8.7 | 48 | 98.75.6..6729.45.8..5.68.9789.5.67...56..7.89..7891.5656...987.7.9.85.6...867.9.5
8.8 | 54 | 59.86.7..86...7.95.475.968.7189..5.6934156278256.789..62.78..59.8529..67.796.58..
8.9 | 53 | 57.96.8..86...7.953.98.567.78.59..6.9.5..67.81.678..596132589472976..58.458.79..6
9.0 | 53 | 7956..8..813.95.76246.87.9567.8.9.5.92.56.78.358.7.6.95627..9.8.379.856..89.56..7
9.1 | 51 | 57.96.8..86...7.953.98.567.78.59..6.9.5..67.81.678..596..2589472976..58.458.79..6
9.2 | 52 | 95.76.8..86...9.75..78.596.68..9.5.7..567..89.795.862.7164532985.8927..6.9.18675.
9.3 | 48 | 8756..9..61..98.75.49.75.8678...956.9..5.67.8.5678...959..638.7..785.69..689.7.5.
9.4 | 48 | 97.68.53.68.5...97..5.796.889..56.7..56..78.94.789..5656.71.98.7.9.68..5..89.576.
9.5 | 50 | 7956..8..81..95.76.46.87.9567.8.9.5.92.56.78..58.7.6.956.73.9.8.379.856..89.56..7
9.6
9.7 | 48 | 9875..6..5..76..98.62.89.578.9.567.3.56..7.89.7.89.56.7.5.489.66.89.5.7..9.67.8.5
9.8 | 48 | 9685.27.45..9768..7...8.59668..9..57..56.7.89.79.586..8.67.59...5..69.78.978.3.65
9.9 | 49 | 8759..6..6..87..59..9.65.7878...95.6932456781.5678..9.5.8..796..6.59.8.7.976.8..5
10.0| 49 | 8756..9..61..98.75.49.75.8678...956.92.5.67.8.5678...959..6.8.7.3785.69..689.7.5.
10.1| 51 | 95.76.8..86...9.75..78.596.68..9.5.7..567..89.795.86..7164532985.8927..6.9.18675.
10.2| 49 | 6857..9..71395..86249.86.5789.6.5.7..56..78.9..789.56.96.5..7.85...7869..78.69..5
10.3| 49 | 57.96.8..86...7.953.98.567.78.59..6.9.5..67.81.678..596..258947.976..58..58.79..6
10.4| 49 | 7956..8..81..95.76.46.87.9567.8.9.5.92.56.78..58.7.6.956.7..9.8.379.856..89.56..7
10.5| 34 | ..3..2.46...3..82.2...6.3.7.2...843...7..3..23..92.....925..6.353.2.6...7.6.3.2..
11.2| 37 | 6....2.5952..4..1...35..2..3..1945...1.658.3...5273..1..4..51...3..2..4575.4....8

qiuyanzhe: thanks for the contribution with the 5.0quad. yeah the method of taking a puzzle with 5 clues nearly filled seems to have blown the entire thread out of the water and was the main reason for the bump. yeah i agree the 5.0ul10 is way harder to spot than the turbot but everyone knows SE's solving hierarchy is inherently flawed at the lower levels (why is a unique rectangle with a hidden quad rated less than a hidden quad? and a lot more of these) and the only reason why anyone still uses it is that it's very good at the top end, and is convenient for patterns game people. also you have to agree that the ul10 looks nice :) dobrichev's thread had skfr ratings not se ratings. skfr is champagne's emulator of se that runs much faster, but misses a few 0.1's here and there at the top levels. edit: my skfr rates it 10.2 for some reason...

edit: fixed typo in the 6.0
Last edited by 999_Springs on Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Once upon a time I was a teenager who was active on here 2007-2011
ocean and eleven should have paired up to make a sudoku-solving duo called Ocean's Eleven
999_Springs
 
Posts: 466
Joined: 27 January 2007
Location: In the toilet, flushing down springs, one by one.

Re: Maximum number of clues for a given SE rating

Postby 999_Springs » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:06 pm

qiuyanzhe wrote:And for the first puzzle in 999_Spring's link, 1234s are in column2. By changing the places of those digits(to be in any row/column/box)difficulty varies from 7.6(R1)to 10.4(C2,as in the link. That post says difficulty=10.3, never mind:P )

wow that's such a great idea, to move the 1234 clues in dobrichev's puzzles around - can't believe i didn't think of that

i took his 10+'s and moved the 1234's to fill different rows/columns/blocks and got these small improvements including filling the gap at 9.6

Code: Select all
95.76.8..86.1.9.75..78.596.68.29.5.7..567..89.795.86..74635..985.89.7..6.9.48675.  9.8/50
57.96.8..86...7.95..98.567.78.59..6.9.5..67.8..678..59612.589.73976..58.458.79..6  9.7/49
675982.1.8..7.6529..9.5.78678...569.95..6783...689..575.8.7.96..675.9.48.9.6.8.75  9.6/50
6857..9..7..95.186..9.8625789.6.537..56..78.9..789.56.96.5..7.85...7869..78.694.5  9.4/49
7956..8..812395476..6.87.9567.8.9.5.9..56.78..58.7.6.956.7..9.8..79.856..89.56..7  9.3/49
59176.8..8625..9.7..7.98.56673.89..5..56.7.89.89.5.67.7.68.5.9.9.8.7.56..549.67.8  8.7/50
6759823148..75.926.29..685778.5.9.6.95..67.38..68..5795.7.9.68..68.75.9..9.6.8745  8.2/53
76.85.9..59...6.78..87.961568..9..57.1567.89..795.81.685.917.6.9472635811.64857.9  8.0/55


i also tried to systematically remove clues from his puzzles to get higher ratings and found a lot more 10.4's - here they are after all singles have been solved

puzzle; se; skfr; clue count
Code: Select all
7596..8..6.398..57.8..75..98...57.9.9.51.6.78.6789.5..5..7.89...76..9.85.9856.74.  10.4 ; 10.3 ; 45
7.96..8..6.398..57.8..7...98...57.9.9..1.6.78.6789.5..5..7.89...76..9.85.9856.74.  10.4 ; 10.3 ; 42
..96..8..6.398..57.8..7...98...57.9.9..1.6.78.6789.5..5..7.89....6..9.85.9856.74.  10.6 ; 10.4 ; 40

.7.96.8..86...7.953.98.567.78.59..6......67.81.678..596..25.947..76..5...5..79..6  10.4 ; 10.4 ; 42
57.96.8...6...7.953.98.567.78.59..6.9.5..67.81.678..596..2.8.47..76...8.....79..6  10.4 ; 10.3 ; 42
.7.96.8..86...7.953..8.567.78.59..6......67.81.678..596..25.947..76..5...5..79..6  10.4 ; 10.2 ; 41

(no idea why removing the clue in the last one makes it easier according to skfr :/ )

... and found this beauty
Code: Select all
..96..8..
6.398..57
.8..7...9
8...57.9.
9..1.6.78
.6789.5..
5..7.89..
..6..9.85
.9856.74.  10.6/40 (skfr 10.4)

SE 10.6
highest rated puzzle i've found :) still looking for a 10.5 though, for some reason all the skfr 10.4's seem to be rated 10.4 or 10.6 and all the skfr 10.3's seem to be rated 10.3-10.4. i wonder if 10.4 just happens to be an overly common se rating compared to 10.5? maybe some patterns game people can chime in on this one

still investigating this further
Once upon a time I was a teenager who was active on here 2007-2011
ocean and eleven should have paired up to make a sudoku-solving duo called Ocean's Eleven
999_Springs
 
Posts: 466
Joined: 27 January 2007
Location: In the toilet, flushing down springs, one by one.

Re: Maximum number of clues for a given SE rating

Postby qiuyanzhe » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:32 pm

Hi 999_Springs,
This is my second try of modifying your 10.6, surprisingly it is SE10.5.
10.5 | 42 | 7.96..8..6.398..57.8..7...98.2.57.9.9....6.78.6789.5..5.17.89...76..9.85.9856.7..
Adding the 6's makes it 10.2, and the maximum difficulty is 9.9 if we add any other digit.

Hidden Text: Show
As for the new 5.8, It is such a pity that we cannot place the three extra rows within two boxes..
Code: Select all
34  34
36  136 13
47  147 14
------------+
.   347 34  |37
.   36  .   |36
67  .   .   |67

P.S.
999_Springs wrote:123948657
467315982
895...314
984...376
37.4...29
25.....43
642...735
538672491
719534268  6.0/63

Here you made a typo aha.. 3 in r4 should be at r4c6
qiuyanzhe
 
Posts: 75
Joined: 21 August 2017
Location: China

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