inferior puzzles thread

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Postby Red Ed » Mon May 22, 2006 6:18 am

It may be too late, but here's a 25-step symmetrically minimal type II puzzle:
Code: Select all
. . .|4 5 .|8 . .
. 2 .|. . 3|. 7 .
5 . .|2 . 8|. . .
-----+-----+-----
. 8 9|. . .|7 . 1
1 . .|. . .|. . 9
7 . 3|. . .|5 8 .
-----+-----+-----
. . .|7 . 5|. . 6
. 5 .|6 . .|. 4 .
. . 6|. 1 4|. . .
And here's a 25-step symmetrically minimal type IV:
Code: Select all
. 5 .|3 . 2|. . .
6 . .|. 7 9|. . .
. . 2|. . .|8 . .
-----+-----+-----
2 . .|4 . .|. 9 8
. 8 .|. . .|. 5 .
3 1 .|. . 6|. . 7
-----+-----+-----
. . 1|. . .|7 . .
. . .|5 4 .|. . 6
. . .|9 . 7|. 8 .
The harder I look for puzzles with limited symmetry, the more impressed I am by the Ocean/ab 27-step type I (fully symmetric) example.
Red Ed
 
Posts: 633
Joined: 06 June 2005

Postby ab » Mon May 22, 2006 1:56 pm

Red Ed wrote:It may be too late, but . . .


it's not too late. I've been a bit ruthless in adding puzzles of late, they have to beat personal records for the given symmetry. I'll keep this policy up for another week or so and if we haven't made 100 by then, maybe add in some of the puzzles I've ommitted. And possibly prune out some very similar puzzles.

Red Ed also wrote:The harder I look for puzzles with limited symmetry, the more impressed I am by the Ocean/ab 27-step type I (fully symmetric) example.

Ocean should take most of the credit for that puzzle. I just put his puzzle into a program I have that sees if there are other puzzles that differ from a puzzle by one clue.
ab
 
Posts: 451
Joined: 06 September 2005

Postby Red Ed » Mon May 22, 2006 3:11 pm

Oh look, an asymmetric 30-stepper:
Code: Select all
...|..1|.7.
..6|...|4..
5..|...|...
---+---+---
81.|...|.3.
...|46.|...
...|.2.|...
---+---+---
..4|...|9.2
37.|8..|...
.9.|...|...
Credit entirely to gfroyle for that: I've just been testing his list of 18s.
Red Ed
 
Posts: 633
Joined: 06 June 2005

Postby gsf » Mon May 22, 2006 3:55 pm

here's a repost in both forms
I included some M's that weren't max because they seem harder to come by

also, can we make Red Ed's CSV post sticky
that page is out of the previous link range
Code: Select all
#II,23,28,SM,020009050800600004001037900509000010002000300010000605008760500900008001030200070,gsf,NEW

. 2 .  . . 9  . 5 .
8 . .  6 . .  . . 4
. . 1  . 3 7  9 . .

5 . 9  . . .  . 1 .
. . 2  . . .  3 . .
. 1 .  . . .  6 . 5

. . 8  7 6 .  5 . .
9 . .  . . 8  . . 1
. 3 .  2 . .  . 7 .

#II,24,28,SM,540030701000102008100000000080060030400207005020040090000000002200806000804020013,gsf,NEW

5 4 .  . 3 .  7 . 1
. . .  1 . 2  . . 8
1 . .  . . .  . . .

. 8 .  . 6 .  . 3 .
4 . .  2 . 7  . . 5
. 2 .  . 4 .  . 9 .

. . .  . . .  . . 2
2 . .  8 . 6  . . .
8 . 4  . 2 .  . 1 3

#III,22,24,M,000902000070000050008301400700000001030406090600000004005109300080000060000504000,gsf,NEW

. . .  9 . 2  . . .
. 7 .  . . .  . 5 .
. . 8  3 . 1  4 . .

7 . .  . . .  . . 1
. 3 .  4 . 6  . 9 .
6 . .  . . .  . . 4

. . 5  1 . 9  3 . .
. 8 .  . . .  . 6 .
. . .  5 . 4  . . .

#IV,24,28,SM,010405900209000000060012007500000603003000400802000009900370050000000704006804090,gsf,NEW

. 1 .  4 . 5  9 . .
2 . 9  . . .  . . .
. 6 .  . 1 2  . . 7

5 . .  . . .  6 . 3
. . 3  . . .  4 . .
8 . 2  . . .  . . 9

9 . .  3 7 .  . 5 .
. . .  . . .  7 . 4
. . 6  8 . 4  . 9 .

#VI,22,24,M,016800000000040000009006300000100026400600730000200058004005100000030000075900000,gsf,NEW

. 1 6  8 . .  . . .
. . .  . 4 .  . . .
. . 9  . . 6  3 . .

. . .  1 . .  . 2 6
4 . .  6 . .  7 3 .
. . .  2 . .  . 5 8

. . 4  . . 5  1 . .
. . .  . 3 .  . . .
. 7 5  9 . .  . . .

#VI,23,25,M,002400706000020004000005090019000800780500000054000900000001060000030008007600102,gsf,NEW

. . 2  4 . .  7 . 6
. . .  . 2 .  . . 4
. . .  . . 5  . 9 .

. 1 9  . . .  8 . .
7 8 .  5 . .  . . .
. 5 4  . . .  9 . .

. . .  . . 1  . 6 .
. . .  . 3 .  . . 8
. . 7  6 . .  1 . 2
gsf
2014 Supporter
 
Posts: 7306
Joined: 21 September 2005
Location: NJ USA

Postby gsf » Mon May 22, 2006 3:56 pm

Red Ed wrote:Credit entirely to gfroyle for that: I've just been testing his list of 18s.

are the 18's posted anywhere?
gsf
2014 Supporter
 
Posts: 7306
Joined: 21 September 2005
Location: NJ USA

Postby Ocean » Mon May 22, 2006 4:44 pm

Type II symmetry: A 21-stepper. Minimal, 24 clues.
Code: Select all
# M24. 21 steps.
 *-----------*
 |1..|...|..2|
 |.34|5..|.6.|
 |...|..6|.5.|
 |---+---+---|
 |..6|.1.|.3.|
 |...|7.4|...|
 |.8.|.3.|2..|
 |---+---+---|
 |.7.|8..|...|
 |.5.|..7|89.|
 |8..|...|..4|
 *-----------*


Type III symmetry: A 24-stepper. 24 clues, symmetrically minimal.
Code: Select all
# SM24. 24 steps.
 *-----------*
 |12.|...|.34|
 |...|4.3|...|
 |..5|...|6..|
 |---+---+---|
 |4..|.3.|..1|
 |...|2.7|...|
 |8..|.6.|..9|
 |---+---+---|
 |..9|...|5..|
 |...|7.1|...|
 |63.|...|.87|
 *-----------*


Type VI symmetry: A 22-stepper. 24 clues, SM.
Code: Select all
# SM24. 22 steps.
 *-----------*
 |1.2|3.4|5.6|
 |...|6.7|...|
 |...|...|...|
 |---+---+---|
 |...|586|...|
 |...|...|...|
 |.58|...|19.|
 |---+---+---|
 |..5|...|9..|
 |.2.|.3.|.6.|
 |.3.|2.1|.8.|
 *-----------*
Ocean
 
Posts: 442
Joined: 29 August 2005

Postby Ruud » Mon May 22, 2006 6:25 pm

It would be useful to start a new thread for the lowsteppers. I cannot find the highscores anymore:(

This is a lowstepper I found in my new batch:

Diagonal (type?) symmetry, SM, 28 clues, 3 stepper.
Code: Select all
. . 5|. . 9|1 . 2
. . .|. 4 2|. . .
4 . 9|. . 5|. . 6
-----+-----+-----
. . .|. . .|4 3 1
. 6 .|. . .|. 8 .
7 5 1|. . .|. . .
-----+-----+-----
6 . .|3 . .|7 . 4
. . .|1 9 .|. . .
9 . 3|2 . .|6 . .

Does it make it on the list? Where is that list anyway?

Ruud.
Ruud
 
Posts: 664
Joined: 28 October 2005

Postby Ocean » Mon May 22, 2006 7:36 pm

Ruud wrote:It would be useful to start a new thread for the lowsteppers. I cannot find the highscores anymore:(

This is a lowstepper I found in my new batch:

Diagonal (type?) symmetry, SM, 28 clues, 3 stepper.
Code: Select all
. . 5|. . 9|1 . 2
. . .|. 4 2|. . .
4 . 9|. . 5|. . 6
-----+-----+-----
. . .|. . .|4 3 1
. 6 .|. . .|. 8 .
7 5 1|. . .|. . .
-----+-----+-----
6 . .|3 . .|7 . 4
. . .|1 9 .|. . .
9 . 3|2 . .|6 . .

Does it make it on the list? Where is that list anyway?

Ruud.

The original list of historic improvements for the lowsteppers, and the table of 'best so far' is here. A symmetric 3-stepper with 28 clues was the very first entry on that list, but that puzzle had rotational symmetry only (type V). I don't think anybody posted a 3-stepper with 28 clues and double diagonal symmetry, so your contribution will be currently 'best' on a new 'extended' list which differentiates on symmetry types. (not yet compiled.)
Ocean
 
Posts: 442
Joined: 29 August 2005

Postby Red Ed » Mon May 22, 2006 8:24 pm

OK, I admit defeat on type I puzzles. Here's my best: 25 clues, symmetric minimal:
Code: Select all
. . 7|. . .|2 . .
. . .|4 . 5|. . .
4 . .|. 6 .|. . 8
-----+-----+-----
. 5 .|. 2 .|. 9 .
. . 1|5 . 3|7 . .
. 4 .|. 9 .|. 1 .
-----+-----+-----
8 . .|. 1 .|. . 9
. . .|7 . 6|. . .
. . 2|. . .|6 . .

Link to my sorted list: here.
Red Ed
 
Posts: 633
Joined: 06 June 2005

Postby JPF » Mon May 22, 2006 8:54 pm

Ocean wrote:
Ruud wrote:It would be useful to start a new thread for the lowsteppers. I cannot find the highscores anymore:(

This is a lowstepper I found in my new batch:

Diagonal (type?) symmetry, SM, 28 clues, 3 stepper.
Code: Select all
. . 5|. . 9|1 . 2
. . .|. 4 2|. . .
4 . 9|. . 5|. . 6
-----+-----+-----
. . .|. . .|4 3 1
. 6 .|. . .|. 8 .
7 5 1|. . .|. . .
-----+-----+-----
6 . .|3 . .|7 . 4
. . .|1 9 .|. . .
9 . 3|2 . .|6 . .

Does it make it on the list? Where is that list anyway?

Ruud.

The original list of historic improvements for the lowsteppers, and the table of 'best so far' is here. A symmetric 3-stepper with 28 clues was the very first entry on that list, but that puzzle had rotational symmetry only (type V). I don't think anybody posted a 3-stepper with 28 clues and double diagonal symmetry, so your contribution will be currently 'best' on a new 'extended' list which differentiates on symmetry types. (not yet compiled.)


I think I did.
2 steps, SM, type IV symmetry, 38 clues
Code: Select all

 . 3 9 | . . 7 | . 6 .
 8 . 5 | 2 . 9 | . 4 1
 7 1 . | 4 . 8 | . . .
-------+-------+-------
 . 2 3 | . . . | 6 7 4
 . . . | . . . | . . .
 9 7 1 | . . . | 3 2 .
-------+-------+-------
 . . . | 9 . 4 | . 3 7
 1 8 . | 3 . 6 | 2 . 5
 . 9 . | 1 . . | 4 8 .
 


(assuming that the number of steps is the first criterion)


Actually, I am assuming that the low steppers are sorted by symmetry type, number of steps, number of clues.
Is that correct ?

JPF
JPF
2017 Supporter
 
Posts: 3752
Joined: 06 December 2005
Location: Paris, France

Postby Ocean » Mon May 22, 2006 11:33 pm

Type II symmetry: A 22-stepper. Minimal. 24 clues.
Code: Select all
# M24. 22 steps. Full rotational symmetry.
 *-----------*
 |...|.1.|...|
 |...|..2|1..|
 |.31|4..|5..|
 |---+---+---|
 |.4.|6.7|3..|
 |8..|...|..4|
 |..2|5.4|.6.|
 |---+---+---|
 |..4|..9|27.|
 |..8|3..|...|
 |...|.2.|...|
 *-----------*

Type VI symmetry: A 24-stepper. Minimal. 24 clues.
Code: Select all
# M24. 24 steps. Vertical symmetry.
 *-----------*
 |..1|2.3|4..|
 |...|...|...|
 |56.|...|.72|
 |---+---+---|
 |.8.|...|.2.|
 |...|1.4|...|
 |..7|...|6..|
 |---+---+---|
 |.4.|9.1|.8.|
 |8.3|4.5|9.7|
 |...|...|...|
 *-----------*
Ocean
 
Posts: 442
Joined: 29 August 2005

Postby ab » Tue May 23, 2006 12:31 am

I think Red Ed's 25 step fully symmetric puzzle should make the cut, which means if we restrict ourselves to 100 puzzles I can only accept one of Ocean's lates offerings. Given the nature of the thread, more steps should win over symmetry considerations, so the type VI puzzle is #100. I suppose the type II puzzle could replace Ocean's #58 ?:
ab
 
Posts: 451
Joined: 06 September 2005

Postby Ocean » Tue May 23, 2006 8:48 am

A new 28-stepper. Minimal, 23 clues.
Type VII symmetry.
Code: Select all
#
# M23.  28 steps. Diagonal symmetry.
#
. 1 .|2 3 .|. . 4
5 . .|6 . .|7 . .
. . .|. . .|8 3 .
-----+-----+-----
3 2 .|. . .|. 1 .
7 . .|. 2 .|. . 8
. . .|. . .|. 4 .
-----+-----+-----
. 8 9|. . .|. . .
. . 4|3 . 5|. . .
6 . .|. 4 .|. . .
Ocean
 
Posts: 442
Joined: 29 August 2005

Postby ab » Tue May 23, 2006 8:56 am

nice puzzle Ocean. I'll replace puzzle #59 with that.

In a sense this thread is different from the superior thread in that there's a record to be broken, so arguably it shouldn't close:!:
ab
 
Posts: 451
Joined: 06 September 2005

Postby Ocean » Tue May 23, 2006 10:46 am

ab wrote:nice puzzle Ocean. I'll replace puzzle #59 with that.
Thanks. Found it quite accidentally, during analysis of about one million generated symmetric puzzles.
ab wrote:In a sense this thread is different from the superior thread in that there's a record to be broken, so arguably it shouldn't close:!:
Agree. It will eventually slowly converge to the 'mathematically best possible'. And as it becomes harder to improve our personal records, submissions will be fewer from some of us.

If a selection criteria is needed (say, the day you should decide to publish a collection), then rather than the artificial "100 first submitted", maybe the "15 or 20 best from each symmetry type, at time of publication" would be more natural.

JPF wrote:I think I did.(...) Actually, I am assuming that the low steppers are sorted by symmetry type, number of steps, number of clues.
Is that correct ?
I think the one-, two-, three-steppers, etc. belong to separate classes, and can not be compared directly. For low-steppers the number of clues is crucial: lower number of clues = better quality. For the sake of diversity, it's interesting to divide in symmetry types: what is the best we can achieve for each symmetry type.
Last edited by Ocean on Tue May 23, 2006 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ocean
 
Posts: 442
Joined: 29 August 2005

PreviousNext

Return to General