The New Sudoku Players' Forum

[yzfwsf]

Hi Leren:Here is Tarek's fish puzzle.

Mutant.png (26.51 KiB) Viewed 687 times

[denis_berthier]

While on the subject of Jellyfish here is a perfect one from Hodoku that has 17 eliminations. Is that a record ?
.............1.....123.456...........27...38..36.5.42...........682.715..74...83.

Great example also. And the 17 eliminations are still available after simper rules are applied.

Code: Select all

***********************************************************************************************
***  SudoRules 20.1.s based on CSP-Rules 2.1.s, config = S
***  Using CLIPS 6.32-r774
***********************************************************************************************
225 candidates, 1658 csp-links and 1658 links. Density = 6.58%
hidden-pairs-in-a-row: r4{n2 n3}{c5 c6} ==> r4c6 ≠ 9, r4c6 ≠ 8, r4c6 ≠ 6, r4c6 ≠ 1, r4c5 ≠ 9, r4c5 ≠ 8, r4c5 ≠ 7, r4c5 ≠ 6, r4c5 ≠ 4
whip[1]: b5n7{r6c4 .} ==> r1c4 ≠ 7, r2c4 ≠ 7
jellyfish-in-columns: n9{c2 c8 c3 c7}{r7 r4 r2 r1} ==> r7c9 ≠ 9, r7c6 ≠ 9, r7c5 ≠ 9, r7c4 ≠ 9, r7c1 ≠ 9, r4c9 ≠ 9, r4c4 ≠ 9, r4c1 ≠ 9, r2c9 ≠ 9, r2c6 ≠ 9, r2c4 ≠ 9, r2c1 ≠ 9, r1c9 ≠ 9, r1c6 ≠ 9, r1c5 ≠ 9, r1c4 ≠ 9, r1c1 ≠ 9
stte

[Leren]

Returning to the main topic, does anybody understand StrmCkr's move? A Rank 20 MSLS ?

Leren

[StrmCkr]

does this help
the basic eliminations are included with my overkill pattern. so ill start by stripping that out

i know you all know this:
normal skloop

Code: Select all

+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------+
| 7       (159)   458-19 | 1239     1234   2459   | 248-3   (389)   6      |
| (469)   2       (149)  | 13679    8      679-4  | (347)   5       (479)  |
| 458-69  (569)   3      | 2679     2467   245679 | 1       (789)   248-79 |
+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------+
| 2689    1679    12789  | 5        267    3      | 4678    1679-8  14789  |
| 3568    4       1578   | 678      9      678    | 35678   2       1578   |
| 235689  3679-5  25789  | 4        267    1      | 35678   3679-8  5789   |
+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------+
| 245-3   (357)   6      | 12378    12347  2478   | 9       (178)   258-17 |
| (239)   8       (279)  | 13679-2  5      679-2  | (267)   4       (127)  |
| 1       (579)   245-79 | 26789    2467   246789 | 258-67  (678)   3      |
+------------------------+------------------------+------------------------+

aals [21,246] 48 Candidates,
16 Truths = {28N1 1379N2 28N3 28N7 1379N8 28N9}
16 Links = {2r8 4r2 5c2 8c8 1b19 3b37 6b19 7b379 9b137}
20 Eliminations --> r3c19<>9, r8c46<>2, r9c37<>7, r19c3<>9, r46c8<>8, r37c9<>7, r1c3<>1,
r1c7<>3, r2c6<>4, r3c1<>6, r6c2<>5, r7c9<>1, r7c1<>3, r9c7<>6,

expand the sk loop to being full aals x4 looped using Row x 2 and Col x 2

Code: Select all

+---------------------------+---------------------------+--------------------------+
| 7        (159)     458-19 | 29-13      1234   245-9   | 248-3   (39-8)    6      |
| (469)    2         (149)  | (13-679)   8      (679-4) | (37-4)  5         (479)  |
| 458-69   (569)     3      | 2679       2467   24579-6 | 1       (789)     248-79 |
+---------------------------+---------------------------+--------------------------+
| 2689     (1679)    2789-1 | 5          267    3       | 4678    (1679-8)  4789-1 |
| 3568     4         1578   | 678        9      78-6    | 35678   2         1578   |
| 25689-3  (3679-5)  25789  | 4          267    1       | 5678-3  (3679-8)  5789   |
+---------------------------+---------------------------+--------------------------+
| 245-3    (37-5)    6      | 278-13     12347  248-7   | 9       (178)     258-17 |
| (39-2)   8         (279)  | (13-2679)  5      (679-2) | (267)   4         (127)  |
| 1        (579)     245-79 | 26789      2467   24789-6 | 258-67  (678)     3      |
+---------------------------+---------------------------+--------------------------+


aals [21,246] 86 Candidates,
24 Truths = {28N1 134679N2 28N3 28N4 28N6 28N7 134679N8 28N9}
45 Links = {9r1 134679r2 9r3 1r4 3r6 7r7 123679r8 7r9 1c4 3c4 5c2 6c268 7c2689 8c8 9c2368 1b19 3b37 6b19 7b379 9b137}
43 Eliminations --> r8c4<>2679, r359c6<>6, r146c8<>8, r2c4<>679, r1c34<>1, r1c47<>3, r1c36<>9,
r2c67<>4, r3c19<>9, r4c39<>1, r6c17<>3, r7c49<>1, r7c14<>3, r7c69<>7,
r8c16<>2, r9c37<>7, r67c2<>5, r3c1<>6, r3c9<>7, r9c7<>6, r9c3<>9,

now from there to bring it into clarity:

lets turn off the useless crap and make it the real digits doing the work and focus on the hidden als.
13679: 5 digits 6 cells x 4

24 cells 20 digits each set sharing 1 digit ,{2 cells }locking the other 4 in a loop.
{the key being that 1 & 3 having exactly 2 locations in each set. }

Code: Select all

+---------------------------+----------------------------+--------------------------+
| 7        5(19)     458-19 | 29-13       1234   245-9   | 248-3   -8(39)    6      |
| 4(69)    2         4(19)  | (13-679)    8      -4(679) | -4(37)  5         4(79)  |
| 458-69   5(69)     3      | 2679        2467   24579-6 | 1       8(79)     248-79 |
+---------------------------+----------------------------+--------------------------+
| 2689     (1679)    2789-1 | 5           267    3       | 4678    -8(1679)  4789-1 |
| 3568     4         1578   | 678         9      78-6    | 35678   2         1578   |
| 25689-3  -5(3679)  25789  | 4           267    1       | 5678-3  -8(3679)  5789   |
+---------------------------+----------------------------+--------------------------+
| 245-3    -5(37)    6      | 278-13      12347  248-7   | 9       8(17)     258-17 |
| -2(39)   8         2(79)  | -2(13-679)  5      -2(679) | 2(67)   4         2(17)  |
| 1        5(79)     245-79 | 26789       2467   24789-6 | 258-67  8(67)     3      |
+---------------------------+----------------------------+--------------------------+

aals [21,246] 64 Candidates,
20 Truths = {13679R2 13679R8 13679C2 13679C8}
47 Links = {1r4 3r6 7r79 9r13 9c3 13c4 679c6 7c9 28n1 134679n2 8n3 28n4 28n6 28n7 134679n8 2n9 1b19 3b37 6b19 7b379 9b137}
43 Eliminations --> r8c4<>2679, r359c6<>6, r146c8<>8, r2c4<>679, r1c34<>1, r1c47<>3, r1c36<>9,
r2c67<>4, r3c19<>9, r4c39<>1, r6c17<>3, r7c49<>1, r7c14<>3, r7c69<>7,
r8c16<>2, r9c37<>7, r67c2<>5, r3c1<>6, r3c9<>7, r9c7<>6, r9c3<>9,

this ones pretty interesting as well

Code: Select all

+--------------------------+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 7        59(1)    4589-1 | 29-13      1234   2459   | 248-3   89(3)    6      |
| 469      2        49(1)  | -679(13)   8      4679   | 47(3)   5        479    |
| 45689    569      3      | 2679       2467   245679 | 1       789      24789  |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 2689     679(1)   2789-1 | 5          267    3      | 4678    6789(1)  4789-1 |
| 3568     4        1578   | 678        9      678    | 35678   2        1578   |
| 25689-3  5679(3)  25789  | 4          267    1      | 5678-3  6789(3)  5789   |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 245-3    57(3)    6      | 278-13     12347  2478   | 9       78(1)    2578-1 |
| 29(3)    8        279    | -2679(13)  5      2679   | 267     4        27(1)  |
| 1        579      24579  | 26789      2467   246789 | 25678   678      3      |
+--------------------------+--------------------------+-------------------------+

aals [21,246] 16 Candidates,
8 Truths = {1R28 3R28 1C28 3C28}
10 Links = {1r4 3r6 13c4 28n4 1b19 3b37}
19 Eliminations --> r8c4<>2679, r2c4<>679, r1c34<>1, r1c47<>3, r4c39<>1, r6c17<>3, r7c49<>1,
r7c14<>3,

which is 2 fish patterns integrated

Code: Select all

+------------------------+-------------------------+------------------------+
| 7       59(1)   4589-1 | 239-1     1234   2459   | 2348   389      6      |
| 469     2       49(1)  | 3679(1)   8      4679   | 347    5        479    |
| 45689   569     3      | 2679      2467   245679 | 1      789      24789  |
+------------------------+-------------------------+------------------------+
| 2689    679(1)  2789-1 | 5         267    3      | 4678   6789(1)  4789-1 |
| 3568    4       1578   | 678       9      678    | 35678  2        1578   |
| 235689  35679   25789  | 4         267    1      | 35678  36789    5789   |
+------------------------+-------------------------+------------------------+
| 2345    357     6      | 2378-1    12347  2478   | 9      78(1)    2578-1 |
| 239     8       279    | 23679(1)  5      2679   | 267    4        27(1)  |
| 1       579     24579  | 26789     2467   246789 | 25678  678      3      |
+------------------------+-------------------------+------------------------+

Code: Select all

+-------------------------+-------------------------+------------------------+
| 7        159      14589 | 129-3     1234   2459   | 248-3   89(3)    6     |
| 469      2        149   | 1679(3)   8      4679   | 47(3)   5        479   |
| 45689    569      3     | 2679      2467   245679 | 1       789      24789 |
+-------------------------+-------------------------+------------------------+
| 2689     1679     12789 | 5         267    3      | 4678    16789    14789 |
| 3568     4        1578  | 678       9      678    | 35678   2        1578  |
| 25689-3  5679(3)  25789 | 4         267    1      | 5678-3  6789(3)  5789  |
+-------------------------+-------------------------+------------------------+
| 245-3    57(3)    6     | 1278-3    12347  2478   | 9       178      12578 |
| 29(3)    8        279   | 12679(3)  5      2679   | 267     4        127   |
| 1        579      24579 | 26789     2467   246789 | 25678   678      3     |
+-------------------------+-------------------------+------------------------+

[yzfwsf]

The first step is a long g-whip[13], with a single right-linking g-candidate: n9r9c456, in the third csp-variable:
g-whip[13]: r1n6{c8 c5} - r9n6{c5 c2} - r9n9{c2 c456} - r7n9{c6 c2} - r8c1{n9 n4} - c3n4{r9 r1} - r1c4{n4 n3} - r1c2{n3 n5} - r3c1{n5 n2} - b2n2{r3c6 r1c6} - c6n7{r1 r3} - r3n9{c6 c4} - r3n4{c4 .} ==> r1c8 ≠ 9

chain.png (52.01 KiB) Viewed 640 times

RTA0 [21,206] 45 Candidates,
14 Truths = {3R2 4R3 6R19 9R2379 4C3 7C6 8N1 1N4 2B12}
21 Links = {49r1 2r3 6c5 9c28 1n3568 2n13 3n46 3b2 4b17 6b7 9b378}
1 Elimination --> (1n8*9b3*9c8*9r1) => r1c8<>9

[denis_berthier]

The first step is a long g-whip[13], with a single right-linking g-candidate: n9r9c456, in the third csp-variable:
g-whip[13]: r1n6{c8 c5} - r9n6{c5 c2} - r9n9{c2 c456} - r7n9{c6 c2} - r8c1{n9 n4} - c3n4{r9 r1} - r1c4{n4 n3} - r1c2{n3 n5} - r3c1{n5 n2} - b2n2{r3c6 r1c6} - c6n7{r1 r3} - r3n9{c6 c4} - r3n4{c4 .} ==> r1c8 ≠ 9

chain.png

RTA0 [21,206] 45 Candidates,
14 Truths = {3R2 4R3 6R19 9R2379 4C3 7C6 8N1 1N4 2B12}
21 Links = {49r1 2r3 6c5 9c28 1n3568 2n13 3n46 3b2 4b17 6b7 9b378}
1 Elimination --> (1n8*9b3*9c8*9r1) => r1c8<>9

Hi yzfwsf,
What's your point?

[yzfwsf]

Hi denis
You said you can’t run Xsudo. I’ll give you the chain automatically found by Xsudo for comparison. Is it very similar to yours?
Please take a look at the lower part of the screenshot.

[Leren]

Strmckr wrote : lets turn off the useless #### and make it the real digits doing the work and focus on the hidden als. 13679: 5 digits 6 cells x 4; 24 cells 20 digits each set sharing 1 digit ,{2 cells }locking the other 4 in a loop.

HI StrmCkr. I think I can see what you are getting at but I can't quite see how you are making a Rank 0 pattern with 24 Truths and links (if that is what you are doing). Perhaps you could explain that part in more detail. Leren

[pjb]

Leren wrote:

For some reason in the second puzzle I found two Multifish in the same cells for a total of 27 eliminations. From the look of them I'll bet Phil's variant SK loop will apply. Leren

Quite correct: Two SK loops, first normal, and second (using same cells) variant.
(29=38)r2c13 - (38=59)r13c2 - (59=16)r79c2 - (16=49)r8c13 - (49=38)r8c79 - (38=79)r79c8 - (79=16)r13c8 - (16=29)r2c79 - loop
13 Eliminations (green cells): r2c4 <> 9, r2c6 <> 2, r2c6 <> 9, r8c4 <> 4, r8c4 <> 9, r8c6 <> 4, r8c6 <> 9, r4c2 <> 5, r4c2 <> 9, r6c2 <> 9, r4c8 <> 9, r6c8 <> 7, r6c8 <> 9
(naked triple:138 at r258c6 => -1 r37c6, -3 r19c6, -8 r37c6)
(2=389)r2c13 - (389=5)r13c2 - (5=169)r79c2 - (169=4)r8c13 - (4=389)r8c79 - (389=7)r79c8 - (7=169)r13c8 - (169=2)r2c79 - loop
8 Eliminations (green cells): r1c3 <> 9, r3c1 <> 9, r1c7 <> 9, r3c9 <> 9, r7c1 <> 9, r9c3 <> 9, r7c9 <> 9, r9c7 <> 9
27 eliminations, same as Leren

First of Denis's puzzles not so friendly. My solver finds an "Almost +1 SK loop".

Phil

[denis_berthier]

Hi denis
You said you can’t run Xsudo. I’ll give you the chain automatically found by Xsudo for comparison. Is it very similar to yours?
Please take a look at the lower part of the screenshot.

I see. Thanks.
I've seen lots of graphics of this kind years ago, when Allan was on this forum.
But I'm surprised by the last line: I've never seen xsudo output a chain; I've only seen Allan doing it manually.
Anyway, there are several questions:
- is this the first thing xsudo outputs when you give it the puzzle?
- otherwise, what input did you give it?

Anyway, what this mainly shows is the gap between the Truths-Links found by xsudo and the g-whip.

[StrmCkr]

HI StrmCkr. I think I can see what you are getting at but I can't quite see how you are making a Rank 0 pattern with 24 Truths and links (if that is what you are doing). Perhaps you could explain that part in more detail. Leren

ill attempt it ... ive used this same move before in the past on Easter monster/mine by flipping the markers from naked set to hidden for an sk loop.{ that used to use the R/C not just the box}.

Code: Select all

+----------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+
| 7       159    14589 | 1239    1234   2459   | 2348   389    6     |
| 469     2      149   | 13679   8      4679   | 347    5      479   |    x
| 45689   569    3     | 2679    2467   245679 | 1      789    24789 |
+----------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+
| 2689    1679   12789 | 5       267    3      | 4678   16789  14789 |
| 3568    4      1578  | 678     9      678    | 35678  2      1578  |
| 235689  35679  25789 | 4       267    1      | 35678  36789  5789  |
+----------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+
| 2345    357    6     | 12378   12347  2478   | 9      178    12578 |
| 239     8      279   | 123679  5      2679   | 267    4      127   |    x 
| 1       579    24579 | 26789   2467   246789 | 25678  678    3     |
           x                                             x 
+----------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+

all the x's have 2549 as givens when combined as a naked set { 4 sets via RRCC}
that leaves
13679 in 6 cells for 4 sets {RRCC}
each of the sets has 2 cells {digits 1 & 3} shared between R/C x 4

20 digits in 24 cells with
2 sets of shares in 4 covered {16 cells } {8 independent}
2 digits shared twice over 4 intersections.
4*2 / 2 = 4.

[StrmCkr]

like this in mine puzzle from years back
12467 naked set given in the rrcc
3589 hidden set

Code: Select all

+-------------------------+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 5       17(3)     1467  | 23468   234678    378    | 1246   46(8)     9      |
| 46(3)   2         46(9) | 1       -46(389)  (3589) | 46(5)  7         46(8)  |
| 1467    17(9)     8     | 24569   24679     579    | 3      46(5)     1246   |
+-------------------------+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 13678   4         15679 | 389     1389      2      | 5679   -6(3589)  3678   |
| 123678  -17(389)  12679 | 3489    5         1389   | 24679  -46(389)  234678 |
| 238     (3589)    259   | 7       3489      6      | 2459   1         2348   |
+-------------------------+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1247    17(5)     3     | 2569    12679     1579   | 8      46(9)     1467   |
| 17(8)   6         17(5) | (3589)  -17(389)  4      | 17(9)  2         17(3)  |
| 9       17(8)     1247  | 2368    123678    1378   | 1467   46(3)     5      |
+-------------------------+--------------------------+-------------------------+

normal sk.

Code: Select all

+-----------------------+---------------------+-----------------------+
| 5       (137)   1467  | 23468  234678  378  | 12-46  (468)   9      |
| (346)   2       (469) | 1      389-46  3589 | (456)  7       (468)  |
| 1467    (179)   8     | 24569  24679   579  | 3      (456)   12-46  |
+-----------------------+---------------------+-----------------------+
| 13678   4       15679 | 389    1389    2    | 5679   3589-6  3678   |
| 123678  389-17  12679 | 3489   5       1389 | 24679  389-46  234678 |
| 238     3589    259   | 7      3489    6    | 2459   1       2348   |
+-----------------------+---------------------+-----------------------+
| 24-17   (157)   3     | 2569   12679   1579 | 8      (469)   1467   |
| (178)   6       (157) | 3589   389-17  4    | (179)  2       (137)  |
| 9       (178)   24-17 | 2368   123678  1378 | 1467   (346)   5      |
+-----------------------+---------------------+-----------------------+

[Leren]

Withdrawn.

[StrmCkr]

Have we been missing something all these years, or is this a property of the variant SK loop ?

Probably an oversight since sk's usually only focus on the naked set in the box

which is usually 5 digits locked to 16 cells because of the 4 digit hidden set that loops on the outside of it as shown in my example from 11.7 strmckr puzzle the eliminations are identical to the original which is was probably why we overlooked it then

naked and hidden sets are always in a balance if the hidden set is the larger set then the hidden set eliminations can go haywire as the hidden set locks to its self for internal looping digits lock to them selves {1/3} if they overlap
then we have peer eliminations
among other things.

[Leren]

Withdrawn.