#42040 int T&E(3) min-expands

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#42040 int T&E(3) min-expands

Postby denis_berthier » Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:39 am

.
Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
! . 2 3 ! 4 . . ! . . . !
! . . 7 ! . . . ! 2 . . !
! 6 9 . ! 2 7 . ! . . . !
+-------+-------+-------+
! . . . ! 7 9 . ! 1 . . !
! . . . ! 6 4 . ! 5 . 8 !
! . 6 . ! . . . ! 9 . 2 !
+-------+-------+-------+
! 3 4 . ! 9 6 . ! . 2 . !
! . 7 . ! . 2 4 ! . 9 . !
! . . . ! 3 . 7 ! . . . !
+-------+-------+-------+
.234.......7...2..69.27.......79.1.....64.5.8.6....9.234.96..2..7..24.9....3.7...;8818;283454
SER = 10.4

Code: Select all
Resolution state after Singles and whips[1]:
   +----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
   ! 158    2      3      ! 4      158    15689  ! 678    1568   15679  !
   ! 1458   158    7      ! 158    1358   135689 ! 2      134568 134569 !
   ! 6      9      1458   ! 2      7      1358   ! 348    13458  1345   !
   +----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
   ! 2458   358    2458   ! 7      9      2358   ! 1      346    346    !
   ! 1279   13     129    ! 6      4      123    ! 5      37     8      !
   ! 14578  6      1458   ! 158    1358   1358   ! 9      347    2      !
   +----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
   ! 3      4      158    ! 9      6      158    ! 78     2      157    !
   ! 158    7      1568   ! 158    2      4      ! 368    9      1356   !
   ! 12589  158    125689 ! 3      158    7      ! 468    14568  1456   !
   +----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
190 candidates.
denis_berthier
2010 Supporter
 
Posts: 3985
Joined: 19 June 2007
Location: Paris

Re: #42040 int T&E(3) min-expands

Postby DEFISE » Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:29 am

Here is my path in W11 + OR2-W10 + OR2-gB5.
(Simplest-first strategy before tridagon destruction and Few-steps strategy after).
N.B: I have the impression that general Ork-whips (which I haven't implemented) must be particularly effective here...

Hidden Text: Show
Box/Line: 7b6c8 => -7r1c8
Hidden pairs: 29r9c13 => -1r9c1 -5r9c1 -8r9c1 -1r9c3 -5r9c3 -6r9c3 -8r9c3
Single(s): 6r8c3
Hidden pairs: 69c6r12 => -1r1c6 -5r1c6 -8r1c6 -1r2c6 -3r2c6 -5r2c6 -8r2c6

Tridagon (1,5,8) in b1p159, b2p249, b7p348, b8p348
with 2 strong guardians: 4r3c3,3r3c6


whip[3]: r5c2{n1 n3}- r5c8{n3 n7}- r6n7{c8 .} => -1r6c1
Trid-OR2-whip[4]: r6n3{c6 c8}- r6n7{c8 c1}- r6n4{c1 c3}- OR2{all guardians |.} => -3r4c6
Trid-OR2-whip[4]: r6n3{c6 c8}- r6n7{c8 c1}- r6n4{c1 c3}- OR2{all guardians |.} => -3r5c6
Box/Line: 3b5r6 => -3r6c8
whip[4]: r2n9{c9 c6}- r1c6{n9 n6}- c7n6{r1 r9}- c7n4{r9 .} => -4r2c9
whip[2]: r2n4{c1 c8}- r6n4{c8 .} => -4r4c1
Trid-OR2-whip[4]: r5c8{n3 n7}- r6c8{n7 n4}- r2n4{c8 c1}- OR2{all guardians |.} => -3r3c8
whip[5]: r9c3{n2 n9}- r5n9{c3 c1}- r5n7{c1 c8}- r6c8{n7 n4}- r4n4{c8 .} => -2r4c3
Hidden pairs: 29c3r59 => -1r5c3
Trid-OR2-whip[6]: r2n9{c9 c6}- r2n6{c6 c8}- c7n6{r1 r9}- c7n4{r9 r3}- b3n3{r3c7 r3c9}- OR2{all guardians |.} => -1r2c9
Trid-OR2-whip[6]: r2n9{c9 c6}- r2n6{c6 c8}- c7n6{r1 r9}- c7n4{r9 r3}- b3n3{r3c7 r3c9}- OR2{all guardians |.} => -5r2c9
Trid-OR2-whip[7]: r1n7{c9 c7}- c7n6{r1 r9}- c7n4{r9 r3}- c7n3{r3 r8}- r8c9{n3 n5}- r3c9{n5 n3}- OR2{all guardians |.} => -1r1c9
Trid-OR2-whip[7]: r1n7{c9 c7}- c7n6{r1 r9}- c7n4{r9 r3}- c7n3{r3 r8}- r8c9{n3 n1}- r3c9{n1 n3}- OR2{all guardians |.} => -5r1c9
Trid-OR2-whip[9]: r4n6{c8 c9}- r2n6{c9 c6}- r2n9{c6 c9}- r1c9{n9 n7}- r1c7{n7 n8}- r8c7{n8 n3}- c9n3{r8 r3}- r3c7{n3 n4}-
OR2{all guardians |.} => -6r1c8
Naked triplets: 158r1c158 => -8r1c7
Trid-OR2-whip[10]: r6c8{n4 n7}- r5c8{n7 n3}- r4c8{n3 n6}- r4c9{n6 n4}- r9n4{c9 c7}- r9n6{c7 c9}- r2n6{c9 c6}- r2n9{c6 c9}-
r2n3{c9 c5}- OR2{all guardians |.} => -4r3c8
whip[11]: r2n4{c1 c8}- r6c8{n4 n7}- r5c8{n7 n3}- r5c2{n3 n1}- r2c2{n1 n8}- r2c4{n8 n1}- r2c5{n1 n3}- r6n3{c5 c6}- c6n1{r6 r7}- c3n1{r7 r3}- r1c1{n1 .} => -5r2c1
whip[11]: r2n4{c1 c8}- r6c8{n4 n7}- r5c8{n7 n3}- r5c2{n3 n1}- r2c2{n1 n5}- r2c4{n5 n1}- r2c5{n1 n3}- r6n3{c5 c6}- c6n1{r6 r7}- c3n1{r7 r3}- r1c1{n1 .} => -8r2c1
Trid-OR2-g-braid[5]: c7n4{r9 r3}- c8n1{r9 r123}- c8n5{r9 r123}- r3c9{n5 n3}- OR2{all guardians |.} => -4r9c8
Trid-OR2-whip[8]: r9n4{c9 c7}- c7n6{r9 r1}- r1n7{c7 c9}- r7c9{n7 n5}- r8c9{n5 n3}- c7n3{r8 r3}- r3c9{n3 n4}- OR2{all guardians |.} => -1r9c9
Trid-OR2-whip[8]: r9n4{c9 c7}- c7n6{r9 r1}- r1n7{c7 c9}- r7c9{n7 n1}- r8c9{n1 n3}- c7n3{r8 r3}- r3c9{n3 n4}- OR2{all guardians |.} => -5r9c9
Trid-OR2-whip[9]: r8c7{n8 n3}- r3c7{n3 n4}- r9n4{c7 c9}- r9n6{c9 c8}- r4n6{c8 c9}- r2n6{c9 c6}- r2n9{c6 c9}- c9n3{r2 r3}-
OR2{all guardians |.} => -8r9c7
Naked pairs: 46r9c79 => -6r9c8
Naked triplets: 158c8r139 => -1r2c8 -5r2c8 -8r2c8
Trid-OR2-whip[9]: b2n3{r3c6 r2c5}- r2n8{c5 c2}- r2n5{c2 c4}- r1c5{n5 n1}- r1c1{n1 n5}- r8n5{c1 c9}- r8n3{c9 c7}- r3c7{n3 n4}- OR2{all guardians |.} => -8r3c6
whip[9]: c5n3{r6 r2}- b2n8{r2c5 r2c4}- r2n5{c4 c2}- r2n1{c2 c1}- r1c1{n1 n8}- r8c1{n8 n5}- r4c1{n5 n2}- r4c6{n2 n5}- c4n5{r6 .}
=> -8r6c5
whip[6]: b2n3{r3c6 r2c5}- r2n5{c5 c2}- r1n5{c1 c8}- r9n5{c8 c5}- c5n8{r9 r1}- r2n8{c5 .} => -5r3c6
whip[5]: r6n3{c5 c6}- r3c6{n3 n1}- c3n1{r3 r7}- r9n1{c2 c8}- c9n1{r7 .} => -1r6c5
whip[5]: r3c6{n3 n1}- b5n1{r5c6 r6c4}- c3n1{r6 r7}- r8n1{c1 c9}- r8n3{c9 .} => -3r3c7
Single(s): 3r8c7
whip[7]: r3c6{n3 n1}- b5n1{r5c6 r6c4}- c3n1{r6 r7}- r8n1{c1 c9}- c9n5{r8 r7}- r7c6{n5 n8}- b5n8{r4c6 .} => -3r3c9
Single(s): 3r3c6, 3r6c5
Naked triplets: 158r2c245 => -1r2c1
Single(s): 4r2c1
Box/Line: 4c8b6 => -4r4c9

Trigagon is now destroyed and then the resolution is done in W7:

whip[7]: c7n8{r7 r3}- r3n4{c7 c9}- r9c9{n4 n6}- r4n6{c9 c8}- r4n4{c8 c3}- c3n8{r4 r6}- r4n8{c3 .} => -8r7c6
Box/Line: 8c6b5 => -8r6c4
whip[7]: r6c4{n1 n5}- c6n5{r6 r7}- r7c3{n5 n8}- r8n8{c1 c4}- r2c4{n8 n1}- c2n1{r2 r9}- r9c5{n1 .} => -1r6c3
Box/Line: 1r6b5 => -1r5c6
Single(s): 2r5c6, 9r5c3, 2r9c3, 9r9c1, 2r4c1
whip[6]: r7c6{n5 n1}- c3n1{r7 r3}- c9n1{r3 r8}- r8n5{c9 c1}- r1n5{c1 c8}- r3n5{c8 .} => -5r9c5
Box/Line: 5c5b2 => -5r2c4
whip[5]: c4n8{r8 r2}- b1n8{r2c2 r3c3}- r6n8{c3 c6}- c6n1{r6 r7}- c3n1{r7 .} => -8r8c1
STTE
DEFISE
 
Posts: 270
Joined: 16 April 2020
Location: France

Re: #42040 int T&E(3) min-expands

Postby marek stefanik » Wed Oct 26, 2022 9:35 am

Nice one.

Code: Select all
.------------------.-----------------.---------------------.
|#158    2    3    | 4   #158   69   | 678  1568    15679  |
| 1458  #158  7    |#158  1358  69   | 2    134568  134569 |
| 6      9   #1458 | 2    7   A#3–158| 348  13458   1345   |
:------------------+-----------------+---------------------:
| 2458   358  2458 | 7    9    *2358 | 1    346     346    |
| 1279   13   129  | 6    4    *123  | 5    37      8      |
| 14578  6   *1458 |*158 *1358 *1358 | 9    347     2      |
:------------------+-----------------+---------------------:
| 3      4  A#158  | 9    6   A#158  | 78   2       157    |
|#158    7    6    |#158  2     4    | 38   9       135    |
| 29    #158  29   | 3   #158   7    | 468  14568   1456   |
'------------------'-----------------'---------------------'
3r3c6 = [TH[11], RT 158A, 158b5A \ r6c36] – (1|5|8=4)r6c3 – 4r3c3 = [TH[11], 3r3c6] => 3r3c6

Code: Select all
.-----------------.---------------.--------------.
|#158   2    3    | 4   #158  69  | 67  158  679 |
| 4    #158  7    |#158  158  69  | 2   36   369 |
| 6     9  A#158  | 2    7    3   | 48  158  145 |
:-----------------+---------------+--------------:
| 258   358  2458 | 7    9   *258 | 1   346  36  |
| 1279  13   129  | 6    4   *12  | 5   37   8   |
| 1578  6    4–158|*158  3   *158 | 9   47   2   |
:-----------------+---------------+--------------:
| 3     4  A#158  | 9    6  A#158 | 78  2    157 |
|#158   7    6    |#158  2    4   | 3   9    15  |
| 29   #158  29   | 3   #158  7   | 46  158  46  |
'-----------------'---------------'--------------'
TH[11] => RT 158A
158b5A \ r6c36 => –158r6c3

Code: Select all
.--------------.---------------.------------.
| 158  2   3   | 4   #58   6   | 7  158  9  |
| 4   #58  7   |#158 #158  9   | 2  6    3  |
| 6    9   158 | 2    7    3   | 4  158  15 |
:--------------+---------------+------------:
| 2    3   58  | 7    9    58  | 1  4    6  |
| 7    1   9   | 6    4    2   | 5  3    8  |
| 58   6   4   | 15   3    158 | 9  7    2  |
:--------------+---------------+------------:
| 3    4   15  | 9    6    15  | 8  2    7  |
| 158  7   6   | 158  2    4   | 3  9    15 |
| 9   #58  2   | 3    1–58 7   | 6  15   4  |
'--------------'---------------'------------'
58c2b2 \ r29c5 => –58r9c5, stte

Marek
marek stefanik
 
Posts: 358
Joined: 05 May 2021

Re: #42040 int T&E(3) min-expands

Postby totuan » Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:10 am

Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
 | 158     2       3       | 4       158     69      | 678     1568    15679   |
 | 1458    158     7       | 158     1358    69      | 2       134568  134569  |
 | 6       9       1458    | 2       7       1358    | 348     13458   1345    |
 |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------|
 | 2458    358     2458    | 7       9       2358    | 1       346     346     |
 |#1279    13     #129     | 6       4      *123     | 5       37      8       |
 | 14578   6       1458    | 158     1358    1358    | 9       347     2       |
 |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------|
 | 3       4       158     | 9       6       158     | 78      2       157     |
 | 158     7       6       | 158     2       4       | 38      9       135     |
 |#29      158    #29      | 3       158     7       | 468     14568   1456    |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*

My path for this one:
01: UR (29)r59c13 => r5c6=2
Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
 |*158     2       3       | 4      *158     69      | 678     1568    15679   |
 |#1458   *158     7       |*158    #1358    69      | 2       346-158 3469-15 |
 | 6       9      *1458    | 2       7      *1358    | 348     13458   1345    |
 |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------|
 | 2458    358     2458    | 7       9       358     | 1       346     346     |
 | 179     13      19      | 6       4       2       | 5       37      8       |
 | 4578    6       458     | 158     1358    1358    | 9       347     2       |
 |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------|
 | 3       4      *158     | 9       6      *158     | 78      2       157     |
 |*158     7       6       |*158     2       4       | 38      9       135     |
 | 29     *158     29      | 3      *158     7       | 468     14568   1456    |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Tridagon (158) => (4)r3c3=(3)r3c6
02: (158=4)r2c124-(4)r3c3==(3)r3c6-(3=158)r2c245 => r2c8<>158, r2c9<>15
Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 158   2     3     | 4     158   69    |c67    158  d679   |
 |*1458  158   7     | 158   1358  69    | 2    *346  e369-4 |
 | 6     9     1458  | 2     7     1358  |a348   158   1345  |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 258-4 358   2458  | 7     9     358   | 1     346   346   |
 | 179   13    19    | 6     4     2     | 5     37    8     |
 |#4578  6    #458   | 158   1358  1358  | 9    #347   2     |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 3     4     158   | 9     6     158   | 78    2     157   |
 | 158   7     6     | 158   2     4     | 38    9     135   |
 | 29    158   29    | 3     158   7     |b46    158   46    |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*

03: (4)r3c7=(4-6)r9c7=(6-7)r1c7=(7-9)r1c9=r2c9 => r2c9<>4
04: (4)r6c13=r6c8-r2c8=r2c1 => r4c1<>4
Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 158   2     3     | 4     158   69    | 67    158   679   |
 |e1458  158   7     | 158  b1358  69    | 2     346   369   |
 | 6     9    d1458  | 2     7    c1358  | 348   158   1345  |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 258   358   2458  | 7     9     358   | 1     346   346   |
 | 179   13    19    | 6     4     2     | 5     37    8     |
 |f4578  6     458   | 158  a1358  1358  | 9    g47-3  2     |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 3     4     158   | 9     6     158   | 78    2     157   |
 | 158   7     6     | 158   2     4     | 38    9     135   |
 | 29    158   29    | 3     158   7     | 46    158   46    |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*

Tridagon (158) => (4)r3c3=(3)r3c6
05: (3)r6c5=r2c5-(3)r3c6==(4)r3c3-r2c1=(4-7)r6c1=r6c8 => r6c8<>3
Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 158   2     3     | 4     158   69    | 67    158   679   |
 | 1458  158   7     | 158   1358  69    | 2     346   369   |
 | 6     9     1458  | 2     7     1358  | 348   158   1345  |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 |e2-58 a358   2458  | 7     9    a58    | 1     346   346   |
 | 179  b13   b19    | 6     4     2     | 5     37    8     |
 | 4578  6     458   | 158   1358  1358  | 9     47    2     |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 3     4     158   | 9     6     158   | 78    2     157   |
 | 158   7     6     | 158   2     4     | 38    9     135   |
 |d29    158  c29    | 3     158   7     | 46    158   46    |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*

06: (58=3)r4c26-(13=9)r5c23-r9c3=(9-2)r9c1=r4c1 => r4c1<>58, some singles
Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 |@158   2     3     | 4    @158   69    | 67   %158   679   |
 | 1458  158   7     |$158   1358  69    | 2     346   369   |
 | 6     9    #1458  | 2     7    #358-1 | 348  *158  *1345  |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 2     358   458   | 7     9     58    | 1     346   346   |
 | 17    13    9     | 6     4     2     | 5     37    8     |
 | 4578  6     458   | 58-1  1358 &1358  | 9     47    2     |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 3     4    #158   | 9     6    #58-1  | 78    2    *157   |
 |@158   7     6     |@158   2     4     | 38    9    %135   |
 | 9     158   2     | 3    $158   7     | 46    158   46    |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*

Look at: if r1c15 & r8c14<>1 => Remote Pair (58)r1c15/r8c14 => r2c4 & r9c5<>58
07: (1)r6c6=(X-wing: 1’s r37c36)-(1)r3c89/r7c9=(1)r1c8/r8c9-[(1)=RP (58)r1c15/r8c14]-(58=1)r2c4/r9c5 => r37c6<>1, r6c4<>1, some singles
Code: Select all
 *--------------------------------------------------*
 | 158  2    3    | 4   *158  69   | 67   158  679  |
 | 4   %158  7    |*158 *158  69   | 2    36   369  |
 | 6    9    158  | 2    7    3    | 48   158  145  |
 |----------------+----------------+----------------|
 | 2   #358  458  | 7    9   #58   | 1    346  36   |
 | 17   13   9    | 6    4    2    | 5    37   8    |
 | 578  6    458  | 58   3    1    | 9    47   2    |
 |----------------+----------------+----------------|
 | 3    4    158  | 9    6   #58   | 78   2    157  |
 | 158  7    6    | 158  2    4    | 3    9    15   |
 | 9   #158  2    | 3    1-58 7    | 46   158  46   |
 *--------------------------------------------------*

08: (5|8)r12c5=r2c4-r2c2=[(5|8)r7c6=r4c6-r4c2=r9c2] => r9c5<>58, stte

Thanks for the puzzle!
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Re: #42040 int T&E(3) min-expands

Postby denis_berthier » Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:40 am

DEFISE wrote:Here is my path in W11 + OR2-W10 + OR2-gB5.
(Simplest-first strategy before tridagon destruction and Few-steps strategy after).
N.B: I have the impression that general Ork-whips (which I haven't implemented) must be particularly effective here...

To avoid confusion with full ORk-whips, it'd be better to write W11 + OR2CW10 + OR2-gCB5.

Yes, the full power of ORk-whips is necessary to avoid using ORk-chains of length > 8. Indeed, the puzzle can't be solved in W12+OR2FW12+OR2CW12 alone; I didn't try with longer chains.

I'll wait a little more before giving my solution, in case other players want to give it a try.
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Re: #42040 int T&E(3) min-expands

Postby Cenoman » Thu Oct 27, 2022 9:22 pm

My solution is the same as Marek's.
As I had noticed early the similarity of this puzzle with some already posted by mith (Loki and Tanngrisnir and Tanngnjóstr), I have tried to dig the sub-pattern "Remote Triple" in some TH-Tridagon patterns. So, the above solution below is nothing but my own learning of this, in a puzzle notably significant for that purpose.

Code: Select all
 +----------------------+----------------------+-------------------------+
 |  158*   2     3      |  4     158*   69     |  678   1568     15679   |
 | b1458   158*  7      |  158* d1358  c69     |  2    c134568  c13569   |
 |  6      9   Aa1458*  |  2     7    Be1358*  |  348   13458    1345    |
 +----------------------+----------------------+-------------------------+
 |  2458   358   2458   |  7     9      2358   |  1     346      346     |
 |  1279   13    129    |  6     4      123    |  5     37       8       |
 |  4578   6     1458   |  158   1358   1358   |  9     347      2       |
 +----------------------+----------------------+-------------------------+
 |  3      4   BA158*   |  9     6    BA158*   |  78    2        157     |
 |  158*   7     6      |  158*  2      4      |  38    9        135     |
 |  29     158*  29     |  3     158*   7      |  468   14568    1456    |
 +----------------------+----------------------+-------------------------+

1. TH(158)b1278 having two guardians, 4r3c3, 3r3c6
- First observation: these two guardians are in a derive weak link:
(4)r3c3 - r2c1 = (469-3)r2c689 = r2c5 - (3)r3c6 => only one can be true.
- Second observation: whichever guardian is true, the TH is left with remote triples (158) at cells r37c3, r7c6 (A) or cells r37c6, r7c3 (B) resp.

In the following, x is whichever digit in {1,5,8}
If 4r3c3 is the true guardian, then RT(158)r37c6, r7c3 => (x)r7c3 = r37c6 - r456c6 = r6c456 => -x r6c3; -158 r6c3, +4r6c3, contradiction.
Therefore, 3r3c6 is the single true guardian of TH(158)b1278 => +3 r3c6; lcls, 4 placements

Code: Select all
 +----------------------+--------------------+-------------------+
 |  158    2     3      |  4     158   69    |  67   158   679   |
 |  4      158   7      |  158   158   69    |  2    36    369   |
 |  6      9    A158    |  2     7     3     |  48   158   145   |
 +----------------------+--------------------+-------------------+
 |  258    358   2458   |  7     9    C258   |  1    346   36    |
 |  1279   13    129    |  6     4    C12    |  5    37    8     |
 |  578    6     4-158  | D158   3    C158   |  9    47    2     |
 +----------------------+--------------------+-------------------+
 |  3      4    A158    |  9     6    B158   |  78   2     157   |
 |  158    7     6      |  158   2     4     |  3    9     15    |
 |  29     158   29     |  3     158   7     |  46   158   46    |
 +----------------------+--------------------+-------------------+

2. TH(158)b1278 => RT(158)r37c3, r7c6 => (x)r37c3 = r7c6 - r456c6 = r6c4 => -x r6c3; -158 r6c3; 23 placements

Code: Select all
 +-------------------+--------------------+------------------+
 |  158   2    3     |  4     158*  6     |  7    158   9    |
 |  4     58*  7     |  158* 158*   9     |  2    6     3    |
 |  6     9    158   |  2     7     3     |  4    158   15   |
 +-------------------+--------------------+------------------+
 |  2     3    58    |  7     9     58    |  1    4     6    |
 |  7     1    9     |  6     4     2     |  5    3     8    |
 |  58    6    4     |  158   3     158   |  9    7     2    |
 +-------------------+--------------------+------------------+
 |  3     4    15    |  9     6     15    |  8    2     7    |
 |  158   7    6     |  158   2     4     |  3    9     15   |
 |  9     58*  2     |  3     1-58  7     |  6    15    4    |
 +-------------------+--------------------+------------------+

3. Remote pair (58): r12c5 = r2c4 - r2c2 = rc2 => -58 r9c5; ste
Last edited by Cenoman on Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: #42040 int T&E(3) min-expands

Postby denis_berthier » Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:34 am

.
Thanks for your answers.
Here's SudoRules simplest-first solution.

Code: Select all
hidden-pairs-in-a-row: r9{n2 n9}{c1 c3} ==> r9c3≠8, r9c3≠6, r9c3≠5, r9c3≠1, r9c1≠8, r9c1≠5, r9c1≠1
hidden-single-in-a-block ==> r8c3=6
hidden-pairs-in-a-column: c6{n6 n9}{r1 r2} ==> r2c6≠8, r2c6≠5, r2c6≠3, r2c6≠1, r1c6≠8, r1c6≠5, r1c6≠1
   +----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
   ! 158    2      3      ! 4      158    69     ! 678    1568   15679  !
   ! 1458   158    7      ! 158    1358   69     ! 2      134568 134569 !
   ! 6      9      1458   ! 2      7      1358   ! 348    13458  1345   !
   +----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
   ! 2458   358    2458   ! 7      9      2358   ! 1      346    346    !
   ! 1279   13     129    ! 6      4      123    ! 5      37     8      !
   ! 14578  6      1458   ! 158    1358   1358   ! 9      347    2      !
   +----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
   ! 3      4      158    ! 9      6      158    ! 78     2      157    !
   ! 158    7      6      ! 158    2      4      ! 38     9      135    !
   ! 29     158    29     ! 3      158    7      ! 468    14568  1456   !
   +----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+

OR2-anti-tridagon[12] for digits 1, 5 and 8 in blocks:
        b1, with cells: r1c1, r2c2, r3c3
        b2, with cells: r1c5, r2c4, r3c6
        b7, with cells: r8c1, r9c2, r7c3
        b8, with cells: r8c4, r9c5, r7c6
with 2 guardians: n4r3c3 n3r3c6


Here's now the main part, with OR2-whips intermingled with regular patterns, with increasingly long ones, up to length 8:

biv-chain[3]: r5c2{n1 n3} - r5c8{n3 n7} - b4n7{r5c1 r6c1} ==> r6c1≠1
biv-chain[4]: r2n9{c9 c6} - b2n6{r2c6 r1c6} - c7n6{r1 r9} - c7n4{r9 r3} ==> r2c9≠4
finned-x-wing-in-rows: n4{r2 r6}{c8 c1} ==> r4c1≠4
Trid-OR2-whip[4]: OR2{{n3r3c6 | n4r3c3}} - r2n4{c1 c8} - r4n4{c8 c9} - b6n3{r4c9 .} ==> r3c8≠3
Trid-OR2-whip[4]: OR2{{n3r3c6 | n4r3c3}} - c1n4{r2 r6} - r6n7{c1 c8} - r6n3{c8 .} ==> r4c6≠3
Trid-OR2-whip[4]: b5n3{r6c6 r5c6} - OR2{{n3r3c6 | n4r3c3}} - b4n4{r4c3 r6c1} - r6n7{c1 .} ==> r6c8≠3

whip[1]: r6n3{c6 .} ==> r5c6≠3
t-whip[5]: c1n2{r5 r9} - c1n9{r9 r5} - c1n7{r5 r6} - r6c8{n7 n4} - r4n4{c9 .} ==> r4c3≠2
hidden-pairs-in-a-column: c3{n2 n9}{r5 r9} ==> r5c3≠1
Trid-OR2-whip[5]: r2n4{c8 c1} - OR2{{n4r3c3 | n3r3c6}} - r2n3{c5 c9} - r2n6{c9 c6} - r2n9{c6 .} ==> r2c8≠8
Trid-OR2-whip[5]: r2n4{c8 c1} - OR2{{n4r3c3 | n3r3c6}} - r2n3{c5 c9} - r2n6{c9 c6} - r2n9{c6 .} ==> r2c8≠5
Trid-OR2-whip[5]: r2n4{c8 c1} - OR2{{n4r3c3 | n3r3c6}} - r2n3{c5 c9} - r2n6{c9 c6} - r2n9{c6 .} ==> r2c8≠1

hidden-triplets-in-a-column: c8{n1 n5 n8}{r1 r3 r9} ==> r9c8≠6, r9c8≠4, r3c8≠4, r1c8≠6
hidden-pairs-in-a-block: b9{n4 n6}{r9c7 r9c9} ==> r9c9≠5, r9c9≠1, r9c7≠8
naked-triplets-in-a-row: r1{c1 c5 c8}{n1 n5 n8} ==> r1c9≠5, r1c9≠1, r1c7≠8
Trid-OR2-whip[5]: r2n9{c9 c6} - r2n6{c6 c8} - r2n4{c8 c1} - OR2{{n4r3c3 | n3r3c6}} - b3n3{r3c7 .} ==> r2c9≠5
Trid-OR2-whip[5]: r2n9{c9 c6} - r2n6{c6 c8} - r2n4{c8 c1} - OR2{{n4r3c3 | n3r3c6}} - b3n3{r3c7 .} ==> r2c9≠1
Trid-OR2-whip[6]: b5n3{r6c5 r6c6} - OR2{{n3r3c6 | n4r3c3}} - c3n1{r3 r7} - b8n1{r7c6 r8c4} - c9n1{r8 r3} - c6n1{r3 .} ==> r6c5≠1
Trid-OR2-whip[8]: c6n3{r3 r6} - OR2{{n3r3c6 | n4r3c3}} - b3n4{r3c7 r2c8} - c8n6{r2 r4} - c8n3{r4 r5} - r5c2{n3 n1} - c6n1{r5 r7} - c3n1{r7 .} ==> r3c6≠8
Trid-OR2-whip[8]: c6n3{r3 r6} - OR2{{n3r3c6 | n4r3c3}} - b3n4{r3c7 r2c8} - c8n6{r2 r4} - c8n3{r4 r5} - r5c2{n3 n1} - c6n1{r5 r7} - c3n1{r7 .} ==> r3c6≠5


The end is in W7 (easy for a puzzle in T&E(3)):
Hidden Text: Show
t-whip[5]: r3c6{n3 n1} - b5n1{r6c6 r6c4} - c3n1{r6 r7} - c9n1{r7 r8} - r8n3{c9 .} ==> r3c7≠3
hidden-single-in-a-column ==> r8c7=3
t-whip[4]: b2n8{r2c5 r2c4} - r8n8{c4 c1} - r1n8{c1 c8} - r9n8{c8 .} ==> r6c5≠8
whip[7]: c1n4{r2 r6} - r6n7{c1 c8} - r5c8{n7 n3} - r5c2{n3 n1} - r2c2{n1 n5} - b2n5{r2c5 r1c5} - b2n8{r1c5 .} ==> r2c1≠8
whip[7]: r3c6{n3 n1} - b5n1{r5c6 r6c4} - c3n1{r6 r7} - c9n1{r7 r8} - c9n5{r8 r7} - r7c6{n5 n8} - b5n8{r4c6 .} ==> r3c9≠3
singles ==> r3c6=3, r6c5=3
naked-triplets-in-a-row: r2{c2 c4 c5}{n1 n5 n8} ==> r2c1≠5, r2c1≠1
naked-single ==> r2c1=4
whip[1]: c8n4{r6 .} ==> r4c9≠4
t-whip[7]: c6n8{r6 r7} - c7n8{r7 r3} - c7n4{r3 r9} - r9n6{c7 c9} - r4n6{c9 c8} - r4n4{c8 c3} - c3n8{r4 .} ==> r6c4≠8
whip[1]: b5n8{r6c6 .} ==> r7c6≠8
t-whip[6]: r6c4{n5 n1} - c6n1{r6 r7} - c3n1{r7 r3} - c9n1{r3 r8} - c1n1{r8 r5} - c1n7{r5 .} ==> r6c1≠5
biv-chain[3]: r6c1{n8 n7} - r6c8{n7 n4} - b4n4{r6c3 r4c3} ==> r4c3≠8
whip[6]: r6c4{n5 n1} - r2c4{n1 n8} - r8n8{c4 c1} - b1n8{r1c1 r3c3} - c3n1{r3 r7} - r7c6{n1 .} ==> r8c4≠5
z-chain[3]: c4n5{r6 r2} - c2n5{r2 r9} - b8n5{r9c5 .} ==> r4c6≠5
whip[1]: b5n5{r6c6 .} ==> r6c3≠5
t-whip[5]: r7c6{n5 n1} - b5n1{r6c6 r6c4} - c3n1{r6 r3} - c9n1{r3 r8} - r8n5{c9 .} ==> r7c3≠5
whip[5]: r7c3{n1 n8} - r8n8{c1 c4} - c4n1{r8 r2} - c5n1{r1 r9} - c2n1{r9 .} ==> r6c3≠1
whip[1]: r6n1{c6 .} ==> r5c6≠1
singles ==> r5c6=2, r4c6=8, r5c3=9, r9c3=2, r9c1=9, r4c1=2
finned-x-wing-in-columns: n8{c2 c4}{r2 r9} ==> r9c5≠8
hidden-single-in-a-block ==> r8c4=8
biv-chain[2]: r8n1{c9 c1} - c3n1{r7 r3} ==> r3c9≠1
whip[1]: c9n1{r8 .} ==> r9c8≠1
finned-x-wing-in-rows: n1{r9 r2}{c2 c5} ==> r1c5≠1
whip[1]: b2n1{r2c5 .} ==> r2c2≠1
biv-chain[3]: b4n8{r6c1 r6c3} - r7c3{n8 n1} - b1n1{r3c3 r1c1} ==> r1c1≠8
stte
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Re: #42040 int T&E(3) min-expands

Postby DEFISE » Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:34 pm

Cenoman wrote:In the following, x is whichever digit in {1,5,8}
If 4r3c3 is the true guardian, then RT(158)r37c6, r7c3 => (x)r7c3 = r37c6 - r456c6 = r6c456 => -x r6c3; -158 r6c3, ...


Hi Cenoman,
Thanks for your explanations, which I found clearer than Marek's, but I still have some problems.
I couldn't find the definition of a remote triple (RT) anywhere.
I guess it is a set of 3 cells C1,C2,C3 each containing exactly the same triplet {a,b,c}
such that C1 and C2 are in the same house, C2 and C3 also, but not C3 and C1.
The case that concerns us is RT {1,5,8} in r3c6, r7c6, r7c3.
I also guess that a RT has the property that the solution numbers of the 3 cells are all different, otherwise you could not have written this start of the chain: (x)r7c3 = r37c6

First problem: I can't prove this property. Why, for example, could we not have:
r3c6=5, r7c6=8, r7c3=5 or: r3c6=8, r7c6=5, r7c3=8 ?

Second problem: assuming you have proven that:
(1r7c3 false => 1r6c3 false) & (5r7c3 false => 5r6c3 false) & (8r7c3 false => 8r6c3 false)
I don't understand how you deduced that: 1r6c3 & 5r6c3 & 8r6c3 are false.

Friendly.
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Re: #42040 int T&E(3) min-expands

Postby Cenoman » Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:51 pm

@François,
Thank you for your interest for this kind of solution.
DEFISE wrote:I couldn't find the definition of a remote triple (RT) anywhere.

I was in the same questioning a few weeks ago.
I guess it is a set of 3 cells C1,C2,C3 each containing exactly the same triplet {a,b,c} such that C1 and C2 are in the same house, C2 and C3 also, but not C3 and C1.

This definition is a bit restrictive, if "containing exactly" is meant as "containing no extra digit" to the triplet {a,b,c}. It is also restrictive to require that C1, C2, C3 be in two houses only. shye's Graffiti puzzle is a nice example of a remote triple in which C1, C2, C3 are in three houses and in which one cell contains an extra digit !
So my definition would be a set of 3 cells C1,C2,C3 each containing the same triplet {a,b,c}, and having each a different solution within the triplet {a,b,c} .
The case that concerns us is RT {1,5,8} in r3c6, r7c6, r7c3.
I also guess that a RT has the property that the solution numbers of the 3 cells are all different, otherwise you could not have written this start of the chain: (x)r7c3 = r37c6

Right
Why, for example, could we not have:
r3c6=5, r7c6=8, r7c3=5 or: r3c6=8, r7c6=5, r7c3=8 ?

Such a solution is not in accordance with the requirement: "the solution numbers of the 3 cells are all different" Above, you are considering a case where two cells have the same solution digit.
The remote triple leads to assert: 1 is present in one of the 3 cells r3c6, r7c3, r7c6 & 5 is present in one of the 3 cells & 8 is present in one of the 3 cells.
Hence the three RT-derived strong links: (1)r7c3 = r37c6, (5)r7c3 = r37c6, (8)r7c3 = r37c6, but also other three (1)r7c36 = r3c6, (5)r7c36 = r3c6, (8)r7c36 = r3c6, if these would have been useful.
These derived strong links chained with the Empty rectangle in box 5 form three chains demonstrating, digit per digit, its elimination from r6c3. (e.g. 1r6c3 is eliminated by (1)r7c3 = ... = (1)r6c456, and so on for 5, 8)
...assuming you have proven that:
(1r7c3 false => 1r6c3 false) & (5r7c3 false => 5r6c3 false) & (8r7c3 false => 8r6c3 false)
I don't understand how you deduced that: 1r6c3 & 5r6c3 & 8r6c3 are false.

My chains above can be written in current language:
Whether 1r7c3 is True OR 1r7c3 is False, 1r6c3 is False. No need to have 1r7c3 False & 5r7c3 False & 8 r7c3 False, to have 158r6c3 False.
Three chains => three eliminations. I can't catch your concern with this logic.
The main point in these Remote Triple is to catch their derived strong links. The subsequent inferences are just "business as usual"
Regards.
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Re: #42040 int T&E(3) min-expands

Postby eleven » Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:43 pm

DEFISE wrote:I also guess that a RT has the property that the solution numbers of the 3 cells are all different, otherwise you could not have written this start of the chain: (x)r7c3 = r37c6

First problem: I can't prove this property.

If in a TH pattern one of the rectangle cells is solved, the other 3 always are a remote triple. I haven't seen a proof here, so this is one:
Code: Select all
---------------------------
 123 .   .   | 123 .   .
 .   X   .   | .  *123 .
 .   .   123 | .   .   123
---------------------------
 123 .   .   | .   .   123
 .  *123 .   | .  *123 .
 .   .   123 |123  .   .
---------------------------

Replace 123 by variables ABC in box 2:
Code: Select all
---------------------------
 BC  .   .   | A   .   .
 .   X   .   | .  *B   .
 .   .   AB  | .   .   C
---------------------------
 ABC .   .   | .   .   AB
 .  *ABC .   | .  *AC .
 .   .   ABC |BC  .   .
---------------------------

[Edit: oops, my first line was both wrong and superfluous]
r4c1=A => r4c6=B,r6c4=C => r6c3=B
r4c1=C => r1c1=B,r3c3=A => r6c3=B
So either r4c1=B or r6c3=B and in the 3 cells you must have 3 different digits.
Last edited by eleven on Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: #42040 int T&E(3) min-expands

Postby totuan » Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:48 am

eleven wrote: If in a TH pattern one of the rectangle cells is solved, the other 3 always are a remote triple. I haven't seen a proof here, so this is one:
Code: Select all
---------------------------
 123 .   .   | 123 .   .
 .   X   .   | .  *123 .
 .   .   123 | .   .   123
---------------------------
 123 .   .   | .   .   123
 .  *123 .   | .  *123 .
 .   .   123 |123  .   .
---------------------------

Replace 123 by variables ABC in box 2:
Code: Select all
---------------------------
 BC  .   .   | A   .   .
 .   X   .   | .  *B   .
 .   .   AB  | .   .   C
---------------------------
 ABC .   .   | .   .   AB
 .  *ABC .   | .  *AC .
 .   .   ABC |BC  .   .
---------------------------

r4c1 cannot be B: => r1c1=C,r3c3=A and r4c6=A,r5c5=C,r6c4=C => r6c3=B
r4c1=A => r4c6=B,r6c4=C => r6c3=B
r4c1=C => r1c1=B,r3c3=A => r6c3=B
So r6c3=B and in the 3 cells you must have 3 different digits.

Nice find!
Code: Select all
---------------------------
 123 .   .   | 123 .   .
 .   X   .   | .  *123A.
 .   .   123 | .   .   123
---------------------------
 123D.   .   | .   .   123
 .  *123C.   | .  *123B.
 .   .   123 |123  .   .
---------------------------

I see it as not pairs, that mean, (*) ABC can’t (12) or (13) or (23)
For example, if (*) ABC= (12) and let A=1 => B=2, C=1 then:
Code: Select all
---------------------------
 123 .   .   | 23  .   .
 .   X   .   | .  *1A  .
 .   .   123 | .   .   23
---------------------------
 23D .   .   | .   .   13
 .  *1C  .   | .  *2B  .
 .   .   23  |13   .   .
---------------------------

Let D=2 => two 1’s on box 1
Code: Select all
---------------------------
 1   .   .   | 3   .   .
 .   X   .   | .  *1A  .
 .   .   1   | .   .   2
---------------------------
 2D  .   .   | .   .   3
 .  *1C  .   | .  *2B  .
 .   .   3   |1    .   .
---------------------------

The same result for other cases => (*) cells must contain 3 different value.

totuan
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Re: #42040 int T&E(3) min-expands

Postby totuan » Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:05 am

For this puzzle, in case r3c6<>3.
If r3c6/r7c36 is not remote triple, for example r3c6=r7c36=15 then let r3c6=1 => r7c6=5, r7c3=1
Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
 |*158      2      3       | 4      *58      69      | 678     1568    15679   |
 | 1458   *158     7       |*58      358     69      | 2       134568  134569  |
 | 6       9      *458     | 2       7      #1       | 348     3458    345     |
 |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------|
 | 2458    358     2458    | 7       9       238     | 1       346     346     |
 | 1279    13      29      | 6       4       23      | 5       37      8       |
 | 14578   6       458     | 158     1358    38      | 9       347     2       |
 |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------|
 | 3       4      #1       | 9       6      #5       | 78      2       7       |
 |*58      7       6       |*18      2       4       | 38      9       135     |
 | 29     *58      29      | 3      *18      7       | 468     14568   1456    |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Let r8c1=5 => two 1’s on box 1
Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
 |*1-58    2       3       | 4      *8       69      | 678     1568    15679   |
 | 1458   *1-58    7       |*5       358     69      | 2       134568  134569  |
 | 6       9      *458     | 2       7      #1       | 348     3458    345     |
 |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------|
 | 2458    358     2458    | 7       9       238     | 1       346     346     |
 | 1279    13      29      | 6       4       23      | 5       37      8       |
 | 14578   6       458     | 158     1358    38      | 9       347     2       |
 |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------|
 | 3       4      #1       | 9       6      #5       | 78      2       7       |
 |*5       7       6       |*8       2       4       | 38      9       135     |
 | 29     *8      29       | 3      *1       7       | 468     14568   1456    |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*

The same result for other cases => In case r3c6<>3 then remote triple at r3c6/r7c36 or they must contain 3 different value

totuan
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Location: vietnam

Re: #42040 int T&E(3) min-expands

Postby eleven » Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:41 am

Corrected my proof above, sorry for any confusion.
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Re: #42040 int T&E(3) min-expands

Postby DEFISE » Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:19 am

@Cenoman

For my 2nd problem, ok it's obvious. Sorry, I was in the clouds because AICs regularly use this logic.
But you didn't answer my first problem:
how to prove that the set {r3c6, r7c36} is an RT if we assume that 3r3c6 is false ?
(i:e the solutions of its 3 cells are distinct).
I understood your chains perfectly, but on condition that this proof is done.
There is certainly a proof in depth 3, which is not very glorious but not so surprising since this grid is in T&E(3). (see demonstration of totuan but which did not convince me, after a study perhaps too rapid).
N.B: Sorry I forgot to see the resolutions of Loki and Tanngrisnir and Tanngnjóstr

@eleven
Thanks, interesting result (that I did not check), but that does not answer my problem directly.

@totuan
Thanks, but I don’t understand your proof for the moment…
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Re: #42040 int T&E(3) min-expands

Postby eleven » Sat Oct 29, 2022 12:00 pm

DEFISE wrote: how to prove that the set {r3c6, r7c36} is an RT if we assume that 3r3c6 is false ?

? that's the same proof. If 3r3c6 is false, 4r3c3 must be true (TH), which resolves a cell of the TH rectangle - so the other 3 have to be a RT.
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