The New Sudoku Players' Forum

[StrmCkr]

champagne » 24 Apr 2020 20:25
studying the fish guide to have it coded in my program, I got this fish coming in a puzzle from the interactive games
...........12.34...2.1.5.6..75...18...........89...74..6.3.9.5...47.19...........;6.50;4.20;4.00

Mutant Jellyfish: 6 c38b28 r159c5 => r1c12579,r4569c5,r5c124679,r9c1279<>6

Code: Select all

 yzfwsf » 24 Apr 2020 23:27

found this with my solver and hodoku { takes more effort - turning on more then 1 elimination per location in the steps menu other wise it will not show up also enabling all fish types other wise the lower priority frank-en cases hit all the eliminations before Mutant is searched}

[champagne]

HI champagne:
For me, when POM can't find the equivalent fish, the solver will go through all combinations and become inefficient, so it is placed in a very low priority, just before force Net.

If I forget that Sudoku Explainer does not use groups of candidates, my TLG is equivalent to a Xloop
for example

6r1c3 - 6r1c456 = 6r2c5 - 6r8c5 = 6r8c456 - 6r9c7 = 6r5c7 - 6r5c3 loop
This gives all eliminations except the cannibalism.

So just considering that a player has already studied the digit pm, I would have seen it around the Jellyfish hardness.

[StrmCkr]

i use ERI's for x cycles and the group in the box acts as a single cell for the on/off link, which is seen by the 2nd eri and a bilocal from the loop {two truths} so its eliminated tagging the cannibalistic eliminations.

[champagne]

Working on this puzzle rated 4.2 (XWing)

7..2...34......5.2.....567...7..68...8..5....5..9....1..2..9....3..7....4..1....3;4.20;4.20;4.20

Code: Select all

7     1569 15689  |2     1689   18    |19    3       4   
13689 1469 134689 |34678 134689 13478 |5     189     2   
12389 1249 13489  |348   13489  5     |6     7       89   
---------------------------------------------------------
1239  1249 7      |34    1234   6     |8     2459    59   
12369 8    13469  |347   5      12347 |23479 2469    679 
5     246  346    |9     2348   23478 |2347  246     1   
---------------------------------------------------------
168   1567 2      |34568 3468   9     |147   14568   5678
1689  3    15689  |4568  7      248   |1249  1245689 5689
4     5679 5689   |1     268    28    |279   25689   3   

I got 2 fish patterns with eliminations at the start

Code: Select all

. . .  . . .  . 3 .    
x . 3  3 3 3  . . .    
3 . 3  3 3 .  . . .    
3 . .  3 3 .  . . .    
3 . 3  3 . 3  3 . .    
. . 3  . 3 3  3 . .    

. . .  3 3 .  . . .    
. 3 .  . . .  . . .    
. . .  . . .   . . 3    

With truths in c3;c6;c7 and links in c5;c6, we have a TLG-1 with uncovered candidates r23c3 and r6c3.
r2c1 is cleared.
This is a mutant swordfish in the fish guide.


The next one is of higher interest and AFAIK is not in the fish guide

Code: Select all

. . 8  . 8 8  . . .    
8 . 8  8 8 8  . 8 .    
8 . x  8 x .  . . 8    
. . .  . . .  8 . .    
. 8 .  . . .  . . .    
. . .  . 8 8  . . .    
8 . .  8 8 .  . 8 8    
8 . 8  8 . 8  . 8 8    
. . 8  . 8 8  . 8 .    

Here the ‘x’ are the candidates to clear.
We have a “tlg rank 0” with a triple point in truths

Truths c1 ; c4 ; c9 ; b3
Links r2 ; r3 ; r7 ; r8

In Allan Barker’s comments in such a situation, the rank 0 is valid only if the triple point is not assigned. In other terms, the eliminations in links is limited to the link hitting the triple point. In the link R3, the 2 cells ‘x’ can be cleared.

This is a general rule that we have many chances to find in a fish pm. Here we have a franken jelly fish, the same could come with a franken swordfish

[yzfwsf]

My solver found these for the same eliminations
Finned Mutant Jellyfish 8r169c9\c356b9 fr3c9 => r3c35<>8
Sashimi Mutant Jellyfish 8r169b3\c3568 fr3c9 => r3c35<>8
Finned Mutant Jellyfish 8r19c49\c3b289 fr3c9 => r3c35<>8
Sashimi Mutant Jellyfish 8r19c4b3\c38b28 fr3c9 => r3c35<>8
Finned Mutant Jellyfish 8r19c9b5\c356b9 fr3c9 => r3c35<>8
Sashimi Mutant Jellyfish 8r19b35\c3568 fr3c9 => r3c35<>8
Finned Mutant Jellyfish 8r1c149\r78b12 fr3c9 => r3c35<>8
Finned Mutant Jellyfish 8r1c49b7\r78c3b2 fr3c9 => r3c35<>8
Sashimi Franken Jellyfish 8c149b3\r2378 efr3c9 => r3c35<>8

[champagne]

My solver found these for the same eliminations...

Hi yzfwsf,

These eliminations are the only possible eliminations in fish mode, I'll have a look to-morrow to all solutions found by your solver, but as usual, we have many ways to find the same eliminations. What Is here of interest for me is the logic applied with one triple point in truths, what was excluded so far from the studied cases on my side;

[champagne]

Hi again yzfwsf

Code: Select all

. . 8    . 8 8    . . .    
8 . 8    8 8 8    . 8 .    
8 . x    8 x .    . . 8    

. . .    . . .    8 . .    
. 8 .    . . .    . . .    
. . .    . 8 8    . . .    

8 . .    8 8 .    . 8 8    
8 . 8    8 . 8    . 8 8    
. . 8    . 8 8    . 8 .    

Code: Select all

My solver found these for the same eliminations

8r169c9\c356b9 fr3c9 => r3c35<>8

I see your 4 truths 4 links (if I understand it properly) construction.

r3c9 is not covered here.

How do you explain the eliminations based on this

[yzfwsf]

8r169c9\c356b9 fr3c9 => r3c35<>8[/code]

I see your 4 truths 4 links (if I understand it properly) construction.

r3c9 is not covered here.

How do you explain the eliminations based on this

Hi champagne:
r3c9 is a fin, if it is true, then 8r3c35 can be eliminated or false, then the fish will eliminate 8r3c35.

[champagne]

Hi champagne:
r3c9 is a fin, if it is true, then 8r3c35 can be eliminated or false, then the fish will eliminate 8r3c35.

Ok thanks, I can now read and understand most of your list.
I know that the fish guide is shown in this way, I prefer to see the rank 1 logic with r3 as link.

Last detail,

Sashimi Franken Jellyfish 8c149b3\r2378 efr3c9 => r3c35<>8

This is equivalent to my post. One overlapping truth.
What means here ef r3c9

[yzfwsf]

ef (endo fin) is similar to the base triple of Allen logic.If the endo fin is false, PM will become a regular fish, otherwise, if the endo fin is true, the eliminations will be generated directly

[yzfwsf]

If I forget that Sudoku Explainer does not use groups of candidates, my TLG is equivalent to a Xloop
for example

6r1c3 - 6r1c456 = 6r2c5 - 6r8c5 = 6r8c456 - 6r9c7 = 6r5c7 - 6r5c3 loop
This gives all eliminations except the cannibalism.

So just considering that a player has already studied the digit pm, I would have seen it around the Jellyfish hardness.

X-Cycle: 6r2c5 = r2c1 - r1c3 = r5c3 - r5c7 = r9c7 - r8c9 = 6r8c5 => r5c14569,r1469c5,r1c1,r9c9<>6

[StrmCkr]

Code: Select all

+------------------------+-----------------------+-------------+
| 3      5        9      | 6       2(8)   7      | 1  248  248 |
| 12(8)  12(8)    6      | 124(8)  5      14(8)  | 7  3    9   |
| 4      7        12(8)  | 9       12(8)  3      | 6  28   5   |
+------------------------+-----------------------+-------------+
| 5      1234     123    | 124     7      9      | 8  124  6   |
| 12(8)  6        7      | 3       12(8)  14(8)  | 9  5    124 |
| 9      124(8)   12(8)  | 124(8)  6      5      | 3  7    124 |
+------------------------+-----------------------+-------------+
| 7      19(-8)   5      | 1(8)    4      6      | 2  189  3   |
| 6      129(-8)  4      | 7       3      12(8)  | 5  189  18  |
| 12(8)  123(8)   123(8) | 5       9      12(-8) | 4  6    7   |
+------------------------+-----------------------+-------------+

anyone have a proper fish for this construct: i built it with 6* ERI and row 2,9

I've put it threw 3 different solvers and haven't found one for it yet. {might be part of the no fish or nxn+k family }

size 8: fish??
Fish: R29B124578 / r56c123456
doesn't make sense but the eliminations are solid confirmed via xsudo
the elms are solid and easy to check by iterating the 3cells of the ERI in box 5 { all 3 cells lead to the elms}

[champagne]

Hi StrmCkr,

This by far not a simple rank 0 logic. The fish guide as far as I remember doe not deviate much from a logic with no triple point.
Xsudo takes any set/link groups

[StrmCkr]

figured as much, my fish codes a hybrid of nxn fish and obi's nxn+k math but limited as i couldn't reuse sets in pascal so k can be at max 3. and i checked all the way up to size 13x14 fish to no avail.

so i 'm curious if anyone had something else on it... as xsudo truth sets can reduce sets down to less then it shows especially with fish/complex fish.

i can also have it suggest -> whale endofinns r29b1245/r56c123456: again this is probably missing some truth link information not displayed. with r2c1246 being used twice.

aals [48,102] 17 Candidates,
6 Truths = {8R29 8B1245}
8 Links = {8r56 8c123456}
2 Eliminations --> (8c2) => r7c2<>8, (8c2) => r8c2<>8

just trying to see if there is a fish convention that could explain this but its probably no regular fish for these 3 template deletes.

thoughts so far is R9c123 is true then the eliminations are found or they are false and r78c2,r9c6 is true & remaining fish structure{-r26c2,-r7c4,-r258c6] is not 1 digit colour-able. thus r9c123 must be true.

[marek stefanik]

There is indeed no fish eliminating the 8s.
Given a fish, assuming an elim results in a negative rank fish, then deleting truths until rank0 gives us a rank0 fish creating a contradiction, i.e. fish are in T&E(rank0 fish).
(In fact fish are in solving power equivalent to T&E(rank0 fish) restricted to one digit.)
Here, assuming 8r8c2 gives us this broken 8-loop with no rank0 fish:

Code: Select all

+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . . . | . . 8 |
| # . . | # . . | . . . |
| . . # | . # . | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . . . | 8 . . |
| # . . | . # . | . . . |
| . . # | # . . | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . . . | . 8 . |
| . 8 . | . . . | . . . |
| . . . | . . 8 | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+

We can of course get a fish-like pattern with multilinks:

Code: Select all

+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . # . | . # # |
|AB . . |AB . . | . . . |
| . . # | . # . | . # . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . . . | . . . |
|AB . . | . A . | . . . |
| . . B |AB . . | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . . . | . . . |
| . . . | . . . | . . . |
| . . . | . . . | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+

2L A = r25c14b5 / 2
2L B = r26c14b4 / 2
4L C = r13c35b3[2]A[2]B / 2

Code: Select all

+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . C . | . C C |
| C # . | C . # | . . . |
| . . C | . C . | . C . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . . . | . . . |
| C # . | . C # | . . . |
| . . C | C . . | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . # . | . . . | . . . |
| . # . | . . . | . . . |
| # # # | . . - | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+

8b123457 \ r9c26[4]C => -8r9c6

Marek