The hardest sudokus

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Postby dml » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:43 pm

JPF wrote:
Size of the thread :
It’s getting hard to surf on the thread with more than 33 pages...
What about starting a new thread (The hardest.. II) ?

JPF


or a wikipedia page where we could gather updated informations in a central limited but properly structured number of pages
list of sudokus
list of programs to resolve , rank , canonize , ....
list of methods to resolve
statistics on sudokus
everything required to create,solve,rank very hard sudokus
......
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Postby RW » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:43 am

dml wrote:or a wikipedia page where we could gather updated informations in a central limited but properly structured number of pages


Maybe there could be an article on hard sudokus in Sudopedia.

RW
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Postby Mauricio » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:41 pm

How about these?

Code: Select all
100000500020060080003004007200008001060900000008030050700001006040700200000080070 SE 9.8
100400500020010080003007001900000006060002050007000300800000090040800005001006200 SE 9.4
000600700020050080003001009900002010050060000008400003400800090000006800002010007 SE 10.0
000600500002080040500007002010060090005300100300001008006004030040900007800030000 SE 9.8
020000700400003090009050001010040006002800400300002070060070000500000080007004500 SE 10.0
003080040050200008700006200000060900060001003500300020001005000070020004900600800 SE 9.6
020070600400008000000200001900060400007800009030004020300005800000100050008030004 SE 9.8
003900050050010008700006300500000060090001000002090007040800000005003200900070004 SE 9.7
003000500400009000080060001500000600008700020030040007000070900200100040000008006 SE 9.6
020004060400010300009600001010030090008000500300008000070000400900070020005006007 SE 9.9
003050004400700030080003200010000090007001800800200007040006000900030500002900006 SE 9.5
400700000020009080005010003600100090030006002001050800000060008009000030700001400 SE 10.0
001400006040050020900006300400000700050000080006000009008700003000080010300009400  SE 9.9


My program was lucky and found this very very very large pearl:

Code: Select all
1..9..7..
.2..6....
..3..5..8
4....3.8.
...6....2
..7.5.9..
3.......1
.9.5.....
..8.2..4.

SE starts with a 9.9 chain! First step is more difficult than the hardest step of 100-epsilon% of all sudokus!

Edit: Analizing this sudoku I saw that the first solved cell was 8 at r8c7, then the next step is rated 10.0, but if we add that 8 (a lucky guess) at r8c7 at the beginning of the sudoku, then the first step is rated 9.8, odd. I would think that the first step in the modified sudoku would have a 10.0 first step. What do you think about that?

Edit: That is completely normal, what was I thinking?!?
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Postby ravel » Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:02 am

Mauricio, thanks for the list. The ratings are
10, 10, 15, 10, <8, <8, 10, <8, <8, <8, 9, 17, 16, 18

So the 5th puzzle is the first ER 10.0 sudoku, which did not qualify! This is a 7 step solution:
r3c4<>7, r4c4<>7, r3c4<>4, r3c4<>6, r3c6<>8, r8c6<>1, r7c3<>8


Concerning a new hardest thread and sudopedia i dont have an answer yet. If i manage to rewrite my program (in the holidays), so that it solves all known puzzles, is not slower than SE and not worse than my old one, i will start a new thread.
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Postby Mauricio » Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:15 pm

I post only the hardest(according to a rating of mine) and/or interesting that my program found the last days

Code: Select all
1..9...5.
....8.4..
.3......6
4....21..
.5..4....
...3....7
5..7...9.
.6..3.2..
..8..9..1  ER 10.3, gsfr 99850


Two with low gsfr:
Code: Select all
6..5...9.
....4...3
.7...95..
4....51..
.5..9..8.
..62.....
3..8...6.
..2.1...5
.....74..  ER 10.0, gsfr 99317


Code: Select all
3..6....8
.4..5..2.
..8..4...
4....86..
.5..9....
..67....3
..1...9..
8......4.
.3...1..7 ER 9.9, gsfr 99315

Note that the last one is a large jade too, starting with 8 singles and final ER 9.9.

A sudoku with gsfr 99820
Code: Select all
...4...2.
6...9...8
..7..51..
4....12..
.5..4..3.
..67.....
..49...5.
1...8.4..
.3......2  ER 10.1, gsfr 99820


The last one of this post
Code: Select all
2..1.....
.3..6.7..
..9....8.
4....68..
.5..3..9.
...7....1
7..8..6..
..8.7..5.
.6...2... ER 9.8
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Postby dml » Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:39 pm

Carcul wrote:Dml, let me congratulate you for this truly amazing Sudoku puzzle. Its remarkable how someone is able to generate such an hard puzzle.
I must confess that, until today, Dml1 Puzzle was the Sudoku that I most enjoyed solving. One of the things that surprised me is that Dml1 is considerably harder than Puzzle 77, as required be its higher rating. One of these days I will post the way I have solved it.
I also realized that Dml1 is precisely the type of puzzle I was waiting for. Is that possible for you, or others, to make harder puzzles? Thanks.

Keep your good work Dml.

Carcul

Carcul,

I hope the top new ones will delight you
Are they as hard as dml1?
I hope to find harder sudokus but seems very hard to go above 99995
I give all I have above 99900 to show how they distribute

As always 2 rankings , classic and -X methods

Code: Select all
99994 100004 003100000040060000700008002500007003010000040009000600000005007000090010200300800 dml10
99993 100013 100050000006009000080200004040030008007000060900000100030800002000004050000010700 dml11
99984  99994 003900000040070001600002000800000002070050030009000400200001008000040050000600900 dml12
99984 100004 002100700030050000400006000001900002080000030700000400000008006000030050900400100 dml13
99981 100002 020400009006080000700003000000007300000060004010200050300000800005900020040000001 dml14
99964  99974 003200000040090000600008010200000003010006040007000500000001002090040060000500700 dml15
99963 100003 002600000030080000500009100006000002080000030700001400000004005010020080000700900 dml16
99961  99961 002900000030080000400005001001004002070000030600000500005002006000070080000300900 dml17
99958  99958 002100000030080000500006400007000001090000020600005300000009008000020070400300600
99954  99995 002400006030010000500008000007000002010000030900600400000007001000090080400200500
99954  99994 100050080000009003000200400004000900030000007800600050002800060500010000070004000
99954  99984 100006000020070030005900000009005001070000020600000400300001006000040070000200800
99954  99964 003500100040080000600009000800000002050700030001000400000006009000020080070100500
99954  99954 003000600400009070080000001200070040000600800000003005060010000007500000900004020
99951  99983 003400000050009000700020010040300900000070020000005006002000008600000070090001500
99945  99975 100006080050700000009030000007000050030000002600001400000040900800005060000200007
99943  99963 002900000030080000400001050009070002010000030600000400000003001000060080007200900
99943  99953 003000009400000100080002060200008400005300000060070000010004800000090070000500003
99942  99977 003400600050009000700020000200008070000030001000500900004000020800010003060000500
99941  99963 020000600400080007009000010005001090000700002000060300300004000070020000001900500
99940 100001 000400600000080003009002010001005040030000800600000007040900020800070000005001000
99934  99974 020000600400080007009000010005006000300040900010200000000700004000001050800090300
99933 100003 100009000020070000004500030008000001030400020900000500000001007000060040005300800
99932  99995 003700000040080020600001000500000003020900040001000600000006005000020090070400800
99931  99982 003900100040070000600002000800000003020050040001000600000006002050080070000300900
99931  99941 002900001030040000500006000008000002040000030900700500600001009000030040000200700
99930  99940 020050080006100000700003000000600001300008050000020400500040700090000020001000006
99928 100008 002900000030040010500006000008700002010000030400000500000002006000080040009300700
99927  99977 002600100030080000500009000006500002070000030100000400000003009000070080400100600
99927 100007 003050000400009000080100060010000070005000002900004300070060090000200001000003800
99925  99955 002600000030080000500009010004000002070010030900000500000005006100070090000200400
99924  99976 020400009006080000700003000004000700500060030010000002300005800000900004000010060
99924  99974 003400009000080200000006050200000100005000040070900003060002000800010000004300070
99924  99955 000050009000100070080006400200090000001700800030004000060800100007000002900000050
99922  99975 003200000040050000700008010900000003060070040002000500000003009800040060000100200
99922  99962 100007000020030500004900000008006001090000020700000300000001008030050060000400700
99921  99998 003200000040090010600007000800000003010006040002000500000001007090040060000500800
99920  99920 100009005020080000003400000009000001080070020600000300000005008000010070040600900
99918  99921 100007000020080000004300500005400001080000020900000300000005007000020060003100900
99911  99921 020050009006100000700003000030090050000600100000008002005000700090020004800000060
99910  99920 020400000006080100700003000000060300000200005090007040300000800001000090040500002
99909  99909 002900000030040100500006000009000002060005030800000400000008006000030070001200900
99902  99993 002900000030070000500004100008000002090000030600500400000003008000060070100200500
99900  99900 100009000020060000003500400005000001060080020700000300080001009000020060000400700
99900  99900 003700010040080000500009000600000003020100040007000500000400007000060020800005900 
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Postby ravel » Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:10 pm

Oh yeah, the times are getting harder:)
First 2 more puzzles with ER > 10 by Mauricio and then this incredible list, which will throw the famous Escargot out of the top 40 !
After 2 hours i only have the ER for the 3 puzzles (10.6, 10.7, 10.7). So this list came in time to raise the demand on speed for a new rating program (at the expense of solution quality).
It will take me some time to reorganize the list (maybe for the last time in this thread).
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Postby tarek » Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:57 am

Excellent puzzles........ That actually limits the number that I was going to rate & therefore limit the number that I was going to submit:D

My new 2 contributions are 1 beyond RMS & 1 that may be close to the limit where RMS may go:
Code: Select all
Mitrale
4.....3...1.5...2...6.8...9.2.....5...7.9...8.....46..3....7....5.1.......8.6....
gsfr 99337,suexr9 890,SE 10.6

Fluid Drive #43
7....92...5..8......64....7..1.....6.4.....3.9.....7..8....25......6..7...31....4
gsfr 99848,seuxr9 733,SE 10.1

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Postby dml » Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:41 am

ravel wrote:It will take me some time to reorganize the list (maybe for the last time in this thread).

Hi,

more work:)
a new list with probably a new #1
I limit the submissions to all those >99950

Code: Select all
99996 100016 100900000020050030004006000600000100030080020007000004000300700000020050080004009 dml20
99984  99994 100800000020090050004003000900000100080007020006000003000100600000050080003004007 dml21
99971  99971 100900000020050000004006003600000100080000020003070004900100800000030050000004006 dml22
99964  99974 100700000020030000004009005600000100070000020009040003000200600003080040000005009 dml23
99954  99994 100500300020070000004008000500006100070000020009000004000300500000040090600001008 dml24
99954  99964 100900000020080050003004000900000100050007020006000003000300600000050040070002008 dml25
99953  99993 100300000020090400005007000800000100040000020007060003000400800000020090006005007 dml26
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Postby ravel » Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:58 pm

Tarek,

both of your puzzles are beyond RMS, the first one has a -X rating of 99981 (the 2nd 99858).

dml,

you are finding toughies faster than i can rate them with SE:) It would be too much work to add them to my list in the way i did it before. So i have to find a quicker way how to finish my final list here.
[Added:] I would like to rename your last puzzles to dml155-dml161, so the puzzles from your list before would be dml110-dml154. Can you agree?

I also saw that you started a "number 1" thread. In the 7 months of this thread dml120 will be the 9th leader. Here is the list with date and ratings (RMS/ER/gsfr), which shows an impressing progress:

Code: Select all
top1465 #77  "the toughest known" from dukuso's top1465 (2005?) 10/9.8
tso #7/31 (06/06/29) 12/9.4
Ocean's BB (06/07/12) 15/9.8
Ocean #1/M21/D21 (06/08/15) 17/10.0
Tarek  Fluid Drive #1 (06/09/26) 20/9.9

ArtoI's AI Etana(Escargot) (06/10/?) NA/10.5/99920
Ocean #5/gold list (06/11/03) NA/10.6/99960
dml1 (06/12/05) NA/10.6/99995 and dml6 NA/10.7/99955
dml120(dml155?) (06/12/17) NA/10.7/99996
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Postby dml » Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:39 pm

ravel wrote:[Added:] I would like to rename your last puzzles to dml155-dml161, so the puzzles from your list before would be dml110-dml154. Can you agree?
No problem
ravel wrote:I also saw that you started a "number 1" thread. In the 7 months of this thread dml120 will be the 9th leader. Here is the list with date and ratings (RMS/ER/gsfr), which shows an impressing progress:

Yes impressive progress and this only the upper part of the iceberg
The lower part and interest of this group are the ranking codes, seems they improved a lot their capability to rank the hardest sudokus
It will be interesting to see how they compare in ranking the entries in your new list

I think you need to make an entry in "a new #1" with your historical data
The list of hard sudokus you prepare should also go there
The objective of this new forum is to gather key data and not discuss any topic
This should help non specialists to capture the up to date core results of this group without being obliged to read the 30+ pages of this forum

Maybe we can also add an entry with all http pointers to collect all ranking codes
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Postby gsf » Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:45 pm

dml wrote:This should help non specialists to capture the up to date core results of this group without being obliged to read the 30+ pages of this forum

isn't that the purpose of page one of this thread which is kept up to date?
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Postby dml » Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:48 pm

gsf wrote:
dml wrote:This should help non specialists to capture the up to date core results of this group without being obliged to read the 30+ pages of this forum

isn't that the purpose of page one of this thread which is kept up to date?

OOPS my fault, I was not aware your where updating this first page
I removed the new "forum" totally useless "-)
thanks for hard work
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Postby gsf » Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:30 pm

dml wrote:OOPS my fault, I was not aware your where updating this first page
I removed the new "forum" totally useless "-)
thanks for hard work

that you being ravel -- thanks ravel
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Postby ravel » Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:47 pm

List updated. This should be my final list on top of this thread.
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