The New Sudoku Players' Forum

by **hendrik_monard** » Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:29 pm

70 new 11.8

Code: Select all: 98.76.5..7.5..98...64..8....976.4.5....95........87....76...4...4.....32...4...8. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5..98...645......976.4.5....95........87....76...4...4.....32...4...8. 11.8/1.2/1.2 987.........9.........65...84....32..93.2..47........84......9332....78..79...4.2 11.8/1.2/1.2 987......6..54.........8...8.9...63..23...9.7.......282.83...96.76...2.3.......7. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5..98...64......5......32.96...4.....4...8..796.4.5....95........87... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5.498...64......8.6....32.47...6.........5..796.4.8....95........87... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.54.7.5.......6.8..7..8.6....9454....8.7..7...65.4.96.........394......2.... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.54.7.5.......6.8..7..8......9454...68.7..7...65.4.96.........394......2.... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5.498...645......96...4...4.....32.......8..796.4.5....95........87... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5.498...645......796.4.8....95........87....47...6....6....32.......5. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5..98...64..8....96...4...4.....32...4...8..796.4.5....95........87... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5..98...645......96...4...4.....32...4...8..796.4.5....95........87... 11.8/1.2/1.2 987......6..54.........8...89....63..2.....97..3...2.837....9.62..6..8....8....23 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..4....5.7....4..9.6.5...67.9...9..86....8.7.54.3..8.....2.........5...... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..4....5.7....4..9.6.5...67.9...95.86....8.7..4.3..8.....2.........5...... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.54.7.5.......4.5..8..8.4.96...56.8.7.....745....6.9...4.....6...39.......2. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76....7.58.4....4....7..6.9...........532.........54.79.6....6..78.....854.... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.48..6...5..49...6..47....54.9...8..79.58........7.3........2.........8 11.8/1.2/1.2 987.........9.........65...8.....43..24....87..3...2.937....8.42...4.9...49....23 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.54..8...46.5....6.759....4..8.6.9...8.47....7.....3........2.........9 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7...4.68......5..9.4..5.9.8...9...56...68.74..3...6....2.........4...... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5....6..4..9.8..87....9.46......85.5.4..67...83........2..........4... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.54.7.58...6..4...9...6..57....45.9..8...79.48........73........2..........8 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.54.7.5....6..4..9.8..87....9..6.4....85.5.4..67...83........2..........4... 11.8/1.2/1.2 987......6..54.........8...7.....93.3.8....62.2.3..8..2.3....79.9....3.6..6...28. 11.8/1.2/1.2 987......6..54.........8...76....93.3.8....62.2.3..8..2.3....79.9....3.6......28. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.54..86..4..5....6.759....4..8.6.9...8.47....7.....3........2.........9 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5....9..46.9.8..87....94.6......58.5.4..6.7..83........2..........4... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.54.7.5.9.8...46..8...6..45..7.49..8.....579.6.....9....3........2.........7 11.8/1.2/1.2 987......6..54.........8...76....93.3.8....62.293..8..2.3....79.7....28.......3.6 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.48......56......8..9.6....7945.....6..8..5.....9..32....74..5......4.. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.48......56......8.59.6....7945.....6..8........9..32....74.5.......4.. 11.8/1.2/1.2 987......6..54.........9...8.....63..2.....87..3...2.937....8.62..6..9....9....23 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76....7.5.84....46..9...4....75...79.5.6...6.94..8....8...3........2.........7 11.8/1.2/1.2 987.........9.........65...84....3...93.2..74..2....8.4......3932....7.8.79...42. 11.8/1.2/1.2 987......6..54.........8...8.9...63..23...9.7.......283......7.2.83...96.76...2.. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5.......64.5....8.....4.....97..8......53.26.9.47.5..7...6.4....89.... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.54.7.5.4.....6.8..7..8.6....945.....8.7..7...65.4.96.........394......2.... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7..4..86..4...5.9.5....678....9.7.45...8..9.63...9....2..........5...... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7..4..86..4...5.9.5....678....9.7.4....85.9.63...9....2..........5...... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.54.7.5.......4.5..8..8...96...56.8.7..4..745....6.9...4.....6...39.......2. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5.498...645......976.4.5....95........87....76...4...4.....32.......8. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5.498...645......976.4.8....95........87....49...6....6....32.......5. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.54.98...46.5....6.75.....4..8.6.9..98.47....7.....3........2.........9 11.8/1.2/1.2 987......6..54.........8...7.....93.3.8....62.293..8..2.3....79.76...28.......3.6 11.8/1.2/1.2 987.........9.........65...84....93..23...8.7.......244.8...27.37..2..9..92...4.3 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.54.98....6....9.8.45.....69.8.7....57.46...4.8...93......46.........2. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.54.98....6......69.8.7....57.46.8...45.....4.8...93......46.........2. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.4.8.....569.48..8....6...6.94...8..75..9......5.746.....4.3.2......... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5.49.....68.5...8......9....5.834.......2..4..6.7.5..97..4.6....98.... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5.84....64..97...58...49.....5.3.2..........4..96.7...9.7......68.5... 11.8/1.2/1.2 987.........9.........65...89....43.2.4....87..3...2.973....8.44.9....23.2..4.9.. 11.8/1.2/1.2 987.........9.........65...84....3...92....74..3.2..8.4......3932....7.8.79...42. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76....7.58.4....4....7..65..78...4.79.6.....854.....69...........532.........5 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76....7.58.4....4..5.7..65..78...4.79.6.....8.4.....69...........532.........5 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.54...6..4...9.8.85.9..4..6.457.....79.8.........73........2..........4 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.54...6..4...9.8.85.9..4..6..57.....79.84........73........2..........4 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76....7.58.4....46......8.49.6....795......6..8.4......9.32.....75.4.........5 11.8/1.2/1.2 987......6..54.........8...8.9...63..23...9.7.......283.8....962..3...7..76...2.. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5..98...468......796.4.8....95........87....67...4....4....32...4...5. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5..98...46..5....796.4.8....95........87....67...4....4....32...4...5. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5.498...468......796.4.8....95........87....67...4....4....32.......5. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5.498...468......94...6...6.....32.......8..796.4.5....95........87... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5....6..4.5..8..8...96...5..8.7..4..745....6.9...4.....6...39.......2. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.54.7.5....6..4.5..8..8.4.96...5..8.7.....745....6.9...4.....6...39.......2. 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.54.7.5.4.....6.8..7..6.8....945.....6.7..7...85.4.96.........394......2.... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.54.7.5.......6.8..7..6.8....9.5.....6.7.47...85.4.96.........394......2.... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..7.5.......64.5....6...47.5..78..6.4....98.....9....4.....87..9......53.2 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.54.7.5.......6.8..7..5.....6.7.47..685...8....9.4.96.........394......2.... 11.8/1.2/1.2 98.76.5..4.7...68...5.4..9.7......4565....8.9..8...76..9.3........29.........4... 11.8/1.2/1.2

and 770 11.7 (hidden)

Hidden Text: Show

by **hendrik_monard** » Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:31 pm

and a collection of 11.6

Hidden Text: Show

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:49 am

hendrik_monard wrote:70 new 11.8

Hi Hendrik,
Good finds.

Some puzzles (44) are in T&E(2): 3 4 13 14 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 39 40 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 52 54 55 56 57 58 59 70
The rest is in T&E(W2, 2).

Whether in T&E(2) or not, all the puzzles have a Tridagon elimination rule.
For a more detailed analysis based on Tridagons, see the Tridagon thread: http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/the-tridagon-rule-t39859.html

by **mith** » Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:56 pm

As mentioned elsewhere, I have finally got some searches back up and running, now focused only on T&E depth. I may start a new thread for tracking these puzzles.

Anyway, while the generating is only based on whether they have depth 3, I am running SE on the expanded forms, and after finding a bunch of 11.7s I finally got a couple 11.8s. Here are their minimal forms:

Code: Select all: ........1.......23....45.....1.54....4671.8..75.8.61...67......18.......5.4.78..6 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2 ........1.......23....45.....1.54....467.18..75.86.1...67......18.......5.4.87..6 ED=11.8/1.2/1.2

The total count for expanded forms not in T&E(2) is now 1808 + any from hendrik's latest batch which I haven't incorporated yet. The count of minimals is 4513 (more than double what I had in the google doc).

I am currently running three scripts:

1. For each minimal puzzle, generate all puzzles in the following neighborhoods: {-2,+2}, {-1,+2}, {-2,+1}. Then check T&E depth, and if >2 expand and check against the expanded puzzle database.
2. For each expanded puzzle, generate all "transforms" obtained by swapping groups of disconnected givens and check against the expanded puzzle database.
3. For each expanded puzzle, generate all minimals, check against the minimal puzzle database; also expand and check against the expanded puzzle database.

The first script is easily the slowest of the three (it has gotten through 939 of the 4513 minimals so far), and I will be splitting it into multiple threads at some point. A fourth script will be adding digits to expanded puzzles and checking depth, eventually yielding all the "maximal" expanded forms for every puzzle in the database.

The lowest rated expanded form in the database so far is:

Code: Select all: ........1.....234.....56.7.....8.......6.928..6821..9..59..1..86.29.8..581.5..... ED=9.2/4.5/2.6

(Without uniqueness techniques, it jumps to 11.6.)

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:04 am

mith wrote:The total count for expanded forms not in T&E(2) is now 1808 + any from hendrik's latest batch which I haven't incorporated yet. The count of minimals is 4513 (more than double what I had in the google doc).

When you integrate Hendrik's puzzles into the expanded database, could you have a temporary index corresponding to their place in Hendrik's original sequence, as you did with my numbering of some version of yours?

mith wrote:2. For each expanded puzzle, generate all "transforms" obtained by swapping groups of disconnected givens and check against the expanded puzzle database

This is probably where much "hidden" redundancy is introduced. "Hidden", I mean by quasi isomorphisms. AFAIK, this technique of expansion wasn't used in the previous database, and that would explain why we didn't have the redundancy problem. I don't mean you shouldn't do it; it's great for exploring a puzzle neighbourhood; just try to understand the why.

mith wrote:The lowest rated expanded form in the database so far is:
Code: Select all
........1.....234.....56.7.....8.......6.928..6821..9..59..1..86.29.8..581.5..... ED=9.2/4.5/2.6

(Without uniqueness techniques, it jumps to 11.6.)

I'd count it as 11.6. Uniqueness makes a total mess when it comes to establishing any relationship with T&E-depth.
I'm curious to see what's the "real" min SER without uniqueness.

by **mith** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:13 pm

Me too; at some point I'll run SE minus uniqueness on the lowest rated puzzles until I find one that is still low. [edit]Doing that now, for all grids <=10.3. The low with uniqueness is now down to 9.0, with both rating 11.7 without uniqueness.[/edit]

(And yes, I can add some sort of temporary index; may be a bit before I post an update, it's still generating at a pretty good pace right now, up to 3415 expanded forms.)

by **mith** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:36 pm

Not too surprising, but none of the <=10.3 with uniqueness grids rated below 11.6 without.

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:40 pm

mith wrote:Me too; at some point I'll run SE minus uniqueness on the lowest rated puzzles until I find one that is still low. [edit]Doing that now, for all grids <=10.3. The low with uniqueness is now down to 9.0, with both rating 11.7 without uniqueness.[/edit]

BTW, how do you run SER without uniqueness?
The command I use for standard SER is:
java -cp SudokuExplainer.jar diuf.sudoku.test.serate --format=%r ....8...5..4..52...9...2..1.8....5.7.3..6.81.7.1..8.9.6..4...5...28..4......3....
and similarly for files of puzzles:
java -cp SudokuExplainer.jar diuf.sudoku.test.serate --format=%r --input=input.txt --output=output.txt

Is there any option for disabling rules or are you running a different version of SE?

mith wrote:it's still generating at a pretty good pace right now, up to 3415 expanded forms.)

I'll tax you for giving me too much analysis work

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:44 pm

mith wrote:Not too surprising, but none of the <=10.3 with uniqueness grids rated below 11.6 without.

That's also what I was expecting and probably true above 10.3 too.
It also means that in the previous database, there may be hidden jewels with SER 11.9 without uniqueness.

by **mith** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:02 pm

I'm using: https://github.com/SudokuMonster/SukakuExplainer (1.17.8 I believe, which is not the latest)

Code: Select all: --techs=1111000011010111011011011011000010100010111111 (1.2.1 mode) --techs=1111000011010111011011001011000000100010111111 (without uniqueness)

I don't know if the original has this parameter, but at least in this fork you can get a list of techniques with "--techs=" (it will tell you there is an error because you didn't give characters, and then a list of the techniques by index).

by **1to9only** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 5:07 pm

See this post: http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/pgexplainer-a-minimal-sudokuexplainer-in-56-712-bytes-t39049-15.html#p310358
PGExplainer with the -M option will do the same, and much faster!!
-M was implemented for sudokus with multiple solutions, with uniqueness (UR/UL and BUG) techniques disabled.

java.exe -jar PGExplainer.jar --input=92.45.26.txt --output=output.txt
........1.....234.....56.7.....8.......6.928..6821..9..59..1..86.29.8..581.5..... ED=9.2/4.5/2.6

java.exe -jar PGExplainer.jar -M --input=92.45.26.txt --output=output.txt
........1.....234.....56.7.....8.......6.928..6821..9..59..1..86.29.8..581.5..... ED=11.6/8.4/2.6

by **mith** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 6:09 pm

Now have some 37c expanded forms not in T&E(2); here was the first found:

Code: Select all: .......12..3.1456.16..524.3...2.513.3.1.78...6..391....3.....5141.5..62.5..1..3.4 ED=11.7/11.7/3.4

[edit]Make that 38c.

Code: Select all: .......12.13.245.6.5261.34.....3.6.11....6.353...5142..7816....23....16.691.4.... ED=11.7/11.7/3.4

I just started the "adder" script (the fourth script mentioned on the previous page), maybe it will go even higher.

by **mith** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:43 pm

Down to 6.7 for lowest SE-with-uniqueness for a depth 3 puzzle:

Code: Select all: ........1....23.45..51.4.6....2.54.626.34....54..16.23.51...632672.31...8....2... ED=6.7/4.5/2.6

11.6 without

by **mith** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:02 pm

The pace really picked up with the fourth script; over 11k expanded puzzles now, with over 45k minimals.

The first script has a lot of catching up to do, it has only made it through about 1600 of those minimals. Really need to split it.

by **mith** » Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:35 am

Alright, reached the lower limit for this:

Code: Select all: ........1..1..2.34.34.156.....2.6....7.....4..89....5....5.32..3..16.4.55...24..3 ED=4.5/2.0/2.0

11.7 without uniqueness.

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