T&E(3) Puzzles (split from "hardest sudokus" thread)

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Re: T&E(3) Puzzles (split from "hardest sudokus" thread)

Postby denis_berthier » Tue Apr 01, 2025 6:23 pm

coloin wrote:Here is the link to MithsBigList

Hi coloin
Thanks for making your work public and avoiding us all the necessity of re-doing it. A few minimals that are not real minimals in the original collection is enough to make computations inconsistent.

coloin wrote:I tried to do a bit more expanding keeping TE3 but mith seems to have done this pretty well.
I was able to get possibly 46 more puzzles ... but need to check fully.

I think he has been very exhaustif in his collection. But my purpose is different: I'm not searching for new puzzles. I'm now more interested in the (+1+BRT) layers above the min-expands in T&E(3) and in the border with T&E(2). The example I referred to before shows there are at least 9 layers in T&E(3).
I've studied similar questions in [HCCS2], but I now have scripts in CSP-Rules able to call SHC and gsf's solver and I can now deal with larger collections.
.
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Re: T&E(3) Puzzles (split from "hardest sudokus" thread)

Postby denis_berthier » Wed Apr 02, 2025 2:57 am

.
Hi coloin

One more point: when you say "minlex" you mean gsf's solution minlex (i.e. with the -f'%#.c' setting) ?
.
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Re: T&E(3) Puzzles (split from "hardest sudokus" thread)

Postby coloin » Wed Apr 02, 2025 6:06 am

coloin wrote:Ive included a list of min expand puzzles - One minlex puzzle [largest minlex] for each solution grid..

I should have written
"Ive included a list of min expand puzzles [in minlex solution grid format] with one largish lexographically puzzle for each solution grid."
So rather than processing 300K/4M puzzles, 67K puzzles - one from each solution grid is quite likely to be representative.

I guess what we need is a filter for puzzles which have a single tridagon elimination as a first step ....

adding clues to the TE3 and then to BxB5 or BxB6 - would give many BxB5 or BxB6 puzzles to minimize furthur.
BxB >6 is very rare as we have found out
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Re: T&E(3) Puzzles (split from "hardest sudokus" thread)

Postby denis_berthier » Wed Apr 02, 2025 3:08 pm

coloin wrote:"Ive included a list of min expand puzzles [in minlex solution grid format] with one largish lexographically puzzle for each solution grid."
So rather than processing 300K/4M puzzles, 67K puzzles - one from each solution grid is quite likely to be representative.

... but representative of what?

coloin wrote:I guess what we need is a filter for puzzles which have a single tridagon elimination as a first step ....

We already know that this is a very special case - and not necessarily the simplest one.

coloin wrote:adding clues to the TE3 and then to BxB5 or BxB6 - would give many BxB5 or BxB6 puzzles to minimize furthur.
BxB >6 is very rare as we have found out

Adding clues to the TE3 is very different from starting from B5B or B6B. In the latter case, vicinity search has few chances of finding T&E(3) or a BxB > 7
But when crossing the T&E(3) border by adding a clue to a T&E(3)-expand, one can get very large B or BxB, as I've shown in [HCCS2].
.
I'll say a word of what I'm currently doing.
I'm splitting the collection of minimals into the full sub-collections associated with each solution grid. (That's a longest part of the computations.)
Every puzzle/solution is in gsf's solution minlex format, so that "P1 included in P2" is easy to check and 1-expansions are trivial.
Basic operations are:
- 1-expansion (add 1 candidate from the solution) (via SudoRules)
- BRT-expansion (exp. by Singles) (via SHC)
- elimination of redundancies (via gsf's solver)
- filter by T&E (or BxB) (via SHC)
I'm developing CSP-Rules scripts that will allow to automatise all the calculations for a collection of grids and associated minimals - and that will work 100% grid by grid, so as to optimise the hardest step, i.e. the elimination of redundancies.
My purpose is not to find new puzzles - though this could happen - because various levels of expansion may have more minimals.
.
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Re: T&E(3) Puzzles (split from "hardest sudokus" thread)

Postby coloin » Wed Apr 02, 2025 4:19 pm

denis_berthier wrote:... but representative of what?[

The min expand is representative of all the puzzles inherent with less clues .. It could be wrong but I cant see it ! Chosing one random minimal puzzle for each grid may well be similar in effect.
I can see a case that the max expand puzzle might be less complex than some of its inherent lesser puzzles
If you are able to process all the minimals..then that would obviously be more complete !

I ordered the representative puzzles with the gsf -q2 rating, as quite a good index of complexity ..... except the top rated puzzle had a single tridagon elimination reducing 11.7 to 9.5.
Code: Select all
........94.7............1.52.684....78.3.2....34...8.234..28.6..726.4...6.873.... # 99379 FNBP C30/M2.9.2916   ED=11.7                                                                                                                     
........94.7............1.52.6847...78.3.2....34...8.234..28.6..726.4...6.873.... # 30686 FNBP C31/M2.115.57   ED= 9.5

I think Mith did several rounds of expansion/minimization to get new puzzles as well a {-1+1} on the minimals to make new minimals and test TE3.
He also generated the associated twin puzzles.
Ive been generating new TE3 by a {-2+2} to produce minimals ... but this is limited as 1 puzzle gives ~ 5000 new minimals.
TE3 puzzles were also found relatively commonly when minimizing Bxb6 puzzles...

I like the idea that you can generate Bxb6 puzzles form a TE3 by adding a clue. All minimal puzzles which have the new clue will be BxB6
Finding Bxb>6 was only possible by minimizing an expanded BxB6 and very very rarely a higher order minimal puzzle was found.

Grouping the puzzles by grid solution is handled very ably and reliably with gridchecker, it also removes redundant clues, handling big files super fast.
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Re: T&E(3) Puzzles (split from "hardest sudokus" thread)

Postby denis_berthier » Thu Apr 03, 2025 7:02 am

coloin wrote:I can see a case that the max expand puzzle might be less complex than some of its inherent lesser puzzles
If you are able to process all the minimals..then that would obviously be more complete !

By definition of a max-expand (or T&E(3)-expand in my more precise vocabulary), it is still in T&E(3).
It can certainly be less complex, in many senses: fewer guardians for the tridagon, maybe simpler resolution after the tridagon rules have been used.

coloin wrote:I like the idea that you can generate Bxb6 puzzles form a TE3 by adding a clue. All minimal puzzles which have the new clue will be BxB6
Finding Bxb>6 was only possible by minimizing an expanded BxB6 and very very rarely a higher order minimal puzzle was found.

That's the whole idea: starting from known harder puzzles, because the chances of finding hard puzzles by vicinity search from less hard ones are very low.
When you're on the T&E(3)-T&E(2) border, on the T&E(3) side, i.e. when you have a T&E(3)-expand puzzle, if you add a single clue (1-expansion), then you can get (non-minimal) puzzles in any of T&E(0, 1, 2). Most of them are not interesting. But you can get a few with high B or BxB classifications - and still harder ones by minimisation.
I've done this on a small scale in [HCCS2], but the scripts Im' writing will allow anyone to do it on a larger scale.

coloin wrote:Grouping the puzzles by grid solution is handled very ably and reliably with gridchecker, it also removes redundant clues, handling big files super fast.

I've already lost too much time trying to compile on my Mac a program that is based on obscure x86 code and restricted to specific variants of Unix.
I wrote CLIPS functions to do that. However slow it is, it works on my Mac and it costs me only little time to program. I let one core run this in the background.
In my view, this is only preparatory work for an approach that will by based on totally separate processes for different solution grids.
However, if you can do that easily and reliably on your PC with gridchecker, I'm interested. That would free one processor of my Mac.
(BTW, the work you have done on mith's collection, cleaning the minimals and the solution grids, has already been very helpful. In the night, I got my first batch of minimals for each of the first 1000 solutions and I can start applying my (still partial) scripts to it.)
.
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Re: T&E(3) Puzzles (split from "hardest sudokus" thread)

Postby denis_berthier » Fri Nov 07, 2025 3:47 am

.
For completeness of this thread. See coloin's new T&E(3) puzzle collection here:
http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/the-bxb-classification-of-t-e-2-puzzles-t41922-375.html
.
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Re: T&E(3) Puzzles (split from "hardest sudokus" thread)

Postby coloin » Fri Nov 07, 2025 9:32 am

indeed this is the right thread for the link.
here is a few more [32237 expanded puzzles]... a by product of my TE2 generation ...
TE3minexpandTotal-nonMith
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Re: T&E(3) Puzzles (split from "hardest sudokus" thread)

Postby denis_berthier » Fri Nov 07, 2025 9:58 am

.
Moved from the BxB thread:

coloin wrote:heres a few more [ç expanded puzzles]... a by product of my TE2 generation ... which I will update the batch I still have
TE3minexpandTotal-nonMith


Nothing unexpected, but it had to be checked:
- these 32,237 new T&E(3) min-expand puzzles are all in T&E(W2, 2).
- they all have a non-degenerate tridagon and 7218 of them (22.4%) have a single guardian and can be solved using only the elementary tridagon rule + S3Fin + W2

The puzzles correspond to 9,548 non-isomorphic solution grids, only 116 of which were already present in mith's latest collection.


Technical notes:
- min-expands are useful, but they don't dispense from studying the minimals; if you don't publish them, everyone has to re-generate them, which is very time consuming.
- a very good way of publishing puzzle collections is to zip them. The compression factor is > 7 for this collection. It's still larger for minimals: 12.8 for mith's collection. Even for solution grids, it is close to 4 (this remains far from gsf's sudz compression but that's still very good).
.
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Re: T&E(3) Puzzles (split from "hardest sudokus" thread)

Postby hendrik_monard » Sat Nov 08, 2025 8:29 pm

This is a partial copy of my post of earlier today in the BxB Thread:
I examined coloin's list of 32237 T&E(3) puzzles. They have 9432 new solutions in comparison with mith's big list. However, I was surprised by the fact that 30 of these solutions (see hidden list) also appear in the B7B+ database. And these 30 solutions are all different from the 17 'shared' solutions previously identified by Denis.
Hidden Text: Show
123456789457189236896372154231795648584623971679841325362518497718934562945267813 ...4.....4...89......37.154.317..64.5.46...7167....3.5.6......7.......6..45.67.13
123456789457189236869372514271634895586297143934518627348725961695841372712963458 ...4....94....92..8..3.25.4.71...8.55.......39.45.8.......25......84.3.2..29.3.58
123456789457189236698732514279314865365298147814675923542961378781543692936827451 ...4.6...4.7.89...69.73...4..93.48..3...98...8.467.9......6.3.87.....6....6....51
123456789457189236689327145248593671531674928796218453365741892872965314914832567 1...56....5.18...668.3.7..5......6.1.3....92.7.....4..3.57.18..87..65......83.5..
123456789457189236689372514218934657365721948974865123542693871791248365836517492 .23..678.4.7....3668......4........736.72..48.7.....2..4.693......2.8.6..3651....
123456789457189236689372541294813675518627394736594128371968452862745913945231867 12.4.....4.71.9....89.72.4..94...6.5.1.....94.....4.28.7...8......7.....94.2.18.7
123456789456789123789132546238675914514398267967214835375841692691523478842967351 .2345....45.7.9.2.7...32.4.23..759.4....9....9....4.........6.2...52347...2....51
123456789457189236968372154294763815735814962816295347379648521542931678681527493 ......7.9.5.1.9.36.6.37.15.2.47......35...96.8.6.........6..5.15.....67.6.15.7.93
123456789457189236689327145278561493391248567546973812712634958834795621965812374 ..3.5678...718..36...3.71.527.......3.1...567.46.7............883.7.56.1...8..3..
123456789457189236698237541246591873319728654875643192582314967731965428964872315 12......9...1...3....2..5412.6....7..1972.6..87.6......82.1....7.196...896.8.2...
123456789456789132789132564271645398534928617968371245397514826612897453845263971 ....56......78.132...1.2.......4...8.34.28.17..8....4.3.7...82..128..4.3...2...71
123456789456789132789132564271645398534928671968371245397514826612897453845263917 ....56......78.132...1.2.......4...8.34.28.71..8....4.3.7...82..128..4.3...2...17
123456789457189263698237514246591378781362945935748621362914857574823196819675432 .2..56....5.18.26.......5...4....378.8....9......486.1.62.14...5.482...681.6.5..2
123456789456789123789123465214935876835672941967841352371568294598214637642397518 12..56..9.567.9...7.9.2...5...9..8.6......94.967....52..1......5...1....6.2.9751.
123456789456789132789132564245697813638521497971348625314965278562873941897214356 12.......4.6...132.89......2......136...214.7...34.62.....6.27..62.73.41..7...3.6
123456789457189236689723145231967458874235691965841372346592817512378964798614523 1...5678....18..366..7.31.5.......5......56...658.137.3.6...817.12......79..1....
123456789456789123789132564238541697645397812971628435314965278562873941897214356 12.......4.6...123.89......2...416.7...3...12....2.43.....6.27..62.73.41..7...3.6
123456789457189263689723145231967458874235691965841372346592817512678934798314526 1...5678....18..636..7.31.5.......5......56...658.137.3.6...817.12......79..1....
123456789456789132789231564218973645537648291964512378395164827672895413841327956 1.345....45...91...89.315.....9.....53..48..19...1....3.5...827......41.8......56
123456789457189236689327514235641897764298153918573642342715968596832471871964325 .23..6...45.....366.9..7....3....8.7.....8.53....7364.3..7.5.685.....47.8...643.5
123456789456789123789231645214695837635817294978342516392578461561924378847163952 1.3......45....123.89..1........5.37.35.172.4.7....51.3.....4.15...2437....1.3.52
123456789457189236896327154239671845574893621681542973315268497748915362962734518 1......89.57.89...896.2...........4...489..21....4...33..2.849....91.3.29...34.18
123456789457189236968372154276598341531624978849731625314867592695243817782915463 1.3.56.8.....8......8..2.....6...341.31...97.....31..531.86...26.52.3....82.15..3
123456789457189236698723415275918364319564827846237591582641973731895642964372158 12....7.9....8.23.....2..1527..18....19.6....8.6.....1.82...9..7.189.6..96..721..
123456789457189236689327514231798465795643128864215973372564891518932647946871352 1.3.567...5718....68.3.75...3.......7....3...86..15.73...5..89.518...6.7.......52
123456789456789231789231564214563978637894125895127643362918457571342896948675312 ......7.9456....31......56..1......863.8.41.58..1.....36.....5.5.134.....486.5.1.
123456789456789231789231564214563978367894125895127643571342896632918457948675312 ......7.9456....31......56..1......836.8.41.58..1.....5.134....63.....5..486.5.1.
123456789457189236689372145295713864318624597746598312561847923832965471974231658 ...45.........9...689.72...29.71.86..1.......7......1..61..792.8.2....7197...16.8
123456789456789132789132564271693845635814297948275316314927658562348971897561423 .2..5....45..891........5.........4....81429..4....3.6.1492..5.....48...89.5.1.2.
123456789457189236698723415264378591785914623931265847342597168516832974879641352 .2.4.67.9..7.89....9.......26....5.178.....23.......47.42.97.6...68.2.7.87.64....
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Re: T&E(3) Puzzles (split from "hardest sudokus" thread)

Postby denis_berthier » Tue Nov 11, 2025 7:13 am

hendrik_monard wrote:I examined coloin's list of 32237 T&E(3) puzzles. They have 9432 new solutions in comparison with mith's big list.

Number confirmed. 9548 different solutions - 116 in common with mith's database.

hendrik_monard wrote:I was surprised by the fact that 30 of these solutions (see hidden list) also appear in the B7B+ database. And these 30 solutions are all different from the 17 'shared' solutions previously identified by Denis.


What do you include in the B7B+ database (does it include Paquita's latest B7B+ ?)
In my studies of B7B+ puzzles, I've considered 4 samples: Mastermins-1to4, Mastermins-5to10, Mastermins-11to15 plus the recent Mastermins-16to18.
The 16 didn't consider the Mastermins-16to18.
The 4 samples have significantly different properties.

As for the T&E(3) puzzles, as of now, I haven't done much with coloin's ones (apart from the basic checks reported in my previous post).
As BRT-expansion and minimisation are now standard practices, I guess the collection is closed under these two operations, but checking this would require very long computations. Maybe coloin could say something about it?
.
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Re: T&E(3) Puzzles (split from "hardest sudokus" thread)

Postby hendrik_monard » Tue Nov 11, 2025 9:30 am

Yes, it includes all 1963 solutions of B7B+ puzzles published until now.
For the 30 new 'shared' solutions, the following list was produced in the process for finding duplicates between them and the solutions in the B7B+ database. For each solution, it shows the new puzzle in coloin's list of 32237 T&E(3) puzzles and the first published puzzle with that solution in the B7B+ database.

Code: Select all
123456789457189236896372154231795648584623971679841325362518497718934562945267813
...4.....4...89......37.154.317..64.5.46...7167....3.5.6......7.......6..45.67.13   T&E(3)
...4.....4...89......37.154.317..64.5.46...7167....3.5.6....4.7......56..45.67.13   B8B   col   250724

123456789457189236869372514271634895586297143934518627348725961695841372712963458
...4....94....92..8..3.25.4.71...8.55.......39.45.8.......25......84.3.2..29.3.58   T&E(3)
...45..894...8923.8..3.25.4.71...8.55.......39.45.8.......25......84...2..29.3.58   B8B   col   240103

123456789457189236698732514279314865365298147814675923542961378781543692936827451
...4.6...4.7.89...69.73...4..93.48..3...98...8.467.9......6.3.87.....6....6....51   T&E(3)
...4.6...4...89...69.73...4.793.48..36..98...8.467.9.....96.3.87.....6..9.6....51   B8B   col   240103

123456789457189236689327145248593671531674928796218453365741892872965314914832567
1...56....5.18...668.3.7..5......6.1.3....92.7.....4..3.57.18..87..65......83.5..   T&E(3)
1.3.56....5718...668.3.7..5...5.36.153....92.7.......33.57.18..8...65......83....   B8B   col   240103

123456789457189236689372514218934657365721948974865123542693871791248365836517492
.23..678.4.7....3668......4........736.72..48.7.....2..4.693......2.8.6..3651....   T&E(3)
.23..678.4.7....3668......4......6.736.72..48.7.....2..4...3......2.8.6..3651....   B8B   col   250618

123456789457189236689372541294813675518627394736594128371968452862745913945231867
12.4.....4.71.9....89.72.4..94...6.5.1.....94.....4.28.7...8......7.....94.2.18.7   T&E(3)
12.4.....4.71.9....89.72.4..94...6.5.1.....9......4.28.7...8......74....94.2.18.7   B8B   col   250618

123456789456789123789132546238675914514398267967214835375841692691523478842967351
.2345....45.7.9.2.7...32.4.23..759.4....9....9....4.........6.2...52347...2....51   T&E(3)
.2345....45.7.9.2.7.9.32.4.23..759.4...39....9..2.4.........6.....52347........51   B11B   col   250724

123456789457189236968372154294763815735814962816295347379648521542931678681527493
......7.9.5.1.9.36.6.37.15.2.47......35...96.8.6.........6..5.15.....67.6.15.7.93   T&E(3)
....567.9.5.1.9.36.6.37.15.29.7......35...96.8...........6..5.15.....67.6.15.7.93   B7B   col   240103

123456789457189236689327145278561493391248567546973812712634958834795621965812374
..3.5678...718..36...3.71.527.......3.1...567.46.7............883.7.56.1...8..3..   T&E(3)
..3.5678...718..36...3.71.52........3.1...567.46.............5883.7.56.1...8..37.   B9B   col   241021

123456789457189236698237541246591873319728654875643192582314967731965428964872315
12......9...1...3....2..5412.6....7..1972.6..87.6......82.1....7.196...896.8.2...   T&E(3)
12....7.9...1...3....2...412.6....7..1972.6..87.6......82.1....7.196...896.8.2...   B8B   col   250618

123456789456789132789132564271645398534928617968371245397514826612897453845263971
....56......78.132...1.2.......4...8.34.28.17..8....4.3.7...82..128..4.3...2...71   T&E(3)
....56......78.132...1.2.......4...8.34.28.17..8....4.3.7...82..128..4.384.2...71   B12B   col   250724

123456789456789132789132564271645398534928671968371245397514826612897453845263917
....56......78.132...1.2.......4...8.34.28.71..8....4.3.7...82..128..4.3...2...17   T&E(3)
....56......78.132...1.2.......4...8.34.28.71..8....4.3.7...82..128..4.384.2...17   B12B   col   250724

123456789457189263698237514246591378781362945935748621362914857574823196819675432
.2..56....5.18.26.......5...4....378.8....9......486.1.62.14...5.482...681.6.5..2   T&E(3)
.2..56...45.18.26.......5..24....378.8....9......486.1.62.14...5.482...681.6.5..2   B8B   col   250724

123456789456789123789123465214935876835672941967841352371568294598214637642397518
12..56..9.567.9...7.9.2...5...9..8.6......94.967....52..1......5...1....6.2.9751.   T&E(3)
12..56..9.567.9...7.912...5......8.6.......4.967....52.71......59..1....6.2.9751.   B11B   col   250724

123456789456789132789132564245697813638521497971348625314965278562873941897214356
12.......4.6...132.89......2......136...214.7...34.62.....6.27..62.73.41..7...3.6   T&E(3)
12.......4.6...132.89......2..6.7.136...214.7...34.62.....6..7..62.73.41..7.....6   B9B   col   250724

123456789457189236689723145231967458874235691965841372346592817512378964798614523
1...5678....18..366..7.31.5.......5......56...658.137.3.6...817.12......79..1....   T&E(3)
1...5678....18..366..7.31.5.......58.....56.1.658.137.3.6...817..2......79.......   B10B   col   250724

123456789456789123789132564238541697645397812971628435314965278562873941897214356
12.......4.6...123.89......2...416.7...3...12....2.43.....6.27..62.73.41..7...3.6   T&E(3)
12.......4.6...123.89......2...416.76..3.7.12...62.43.....6..7..62.73.41..7.....6   B9B   col   250724

123456789457189263689723145231967458874235691965841372346592817512678934798314526
1...5678....18..636..7.31.5.......5......56...658.137.3.6...817.12......79..1....   T&E(3)
1...5678....18..636..7.31.5.......58.....56.1.658.137.3.6...817..2......79.......   B9B   col   250724

123456789456789132789231564218973645537648291964512378395164827672895413841327956
1.345....45...91...89.315.....9.....53..48..19...1....3.5...827......41.8......56   T&E(3)
1.345....45...91...89.315.....9.3..553..48.919..51....3.....8.7.....541.8.......6   B8B   col   250724

123456789457189236689327514235641897764298153918573642342715968596832471871964325
.23..6...45.....366.9..7....3....8.7.....8.53....7364.3..7.5.685.....47.8...643.5   T&E(3)
.2...6...45.....366.9..7.........8.7.....8.53....7364.3..7.5.685..83.47.8...643.5   B9B   col   250724

123456789456789123789231645214695837635817294978342516392578461561924378847163952
1.3......45....123.89..1........5.37.35.172.4.7....51.3.....4.15...2437....1.3.52   T&E(3)
1.3......45....123.89..1........5..7.35.172.4.7....5..3..57.4.15...2437....1.3.52   B9B   col   250724

123456789457189236896327154239671845574893621681542973315268497748915362962734518
1......89.57.89...896.2...........4...489..21....4...33..2.849....91.3.29...34.18   T&E(3)
1.3....89.57.89...8...2..........84...489..21....4.9.33..2.849....91.3.29...34.18   B7B   col   240103

123456789457189236968372154276598341531624978849731625314867592695243817782915463
1.3.56.8.....8......8..2.....6...341.31...97.....31..531.86...26.52.3....82.15..3   T&E(3)
1.3.56.8....18......83.2.....6.....1.31...97.....31.2531.86...26.52.3....82.15..3   B7B   col   240103

123456789457189236698723415275918364319564827846237591582641973731895642964372158
12....7.9....8.23.....2..1527..18....19.6....8.6.....1.82...9..7.189.6..96..721..   T&E(3)
12....7.9....8.23.....2...527..18....19.6....8.6.......826.19..7.189.6..96..721..   B10B   col   241021

123456789457189236689327514231798465795643128864215973372564891518932647946871352
1.3.567...5718....68.3.75...3.......7....3...86..15.73...5..89.518...6.7.......52   T&E(3)
1.3.567...5718....68.3.75...31......7.5..3...86..15.73......89.518...6.7........2   B10B   col   241021

123456789456789231789231564214563978637894125895127643362918457571342896948675312
......7.9456....31......56..1......863.8.41.58..1.....36.....5.5.134.....486.5.1.   T&E(3)
......7.9456....31......56..1......863.8.41.58..1.....36..18.5.5.134.....486.5.1.   B12B   col   250725

123456789456789231789231564214563978367894125895127643571342896632918457948675312
......7.9456....31......56..1......836.8.41.58..1.....5.134....63.....5..486.5.1.   T&E(3)
......7.9456....31......56..1......836.8.41.58..1.....5.134....63..18.5..486.5.1.   B12B   col   250725

123456789457189236689372145295713864318624597746598312561847923832965471974231658
...45.........9...689.72...29.71.86..1.......7......1..61..792.8.2....7197...16.8   T&E(3)
...45.........9...689.72...29.71.86..18......7.6....1..61..792.8.2....7197...16.8   B7B   col   250724

123456789456789132789132564271693845635814297948275316314927658562348971897561423
.2..5....45..891........5.........4....81429..4....3.6.1492..5.....48...89.5.1.2.   T&E(3)
.2..5....45..891.2.....25.........4....81429..4....3.6.1492..5.5.2.48...89.5.1.2.   B12B   col   250724

123456789457189236698723415264378591785914623931265847342597168516832974879641352
.2.4.67.9..7.89....9.......26....5.178.....23.......47.42.97.6...68.2.7.87.64....   T&E(3)
.2.4.67.9....89....9.72....26....5.1.8....623...26..47.42.97.6....8.2.7.87.64....   B9B   col   250724

hendrik_monard
 
Posts: 134
Joined: 19 April 2021
Location: Leuven (Louvain) Belgium

Re: T&E(3) Puzzles (split from "hardest sudokus" thread)

Postby coloin » Tue Nov 11, 2025 12:32 pm

Well done for sifting them out
here is five more incidental TE3 grids from the last [161718] batch ... differing by a few clues to the pair above
Code: Select all
......7.9456....31......56..1......863.8.41.58..1.....36..18.5.5.164.....483.5.1.# 9# 2#   440 FNBP C33/M1.3.39   #
.....67.9456....31......56..1...3..863.8.41.58..1.....36.....5.5.164.....483.5.1.#-4# 2#   332 FNBP C33/M1.4.36   #
......7.9456....31.......6..1......863.8.41.58..1.....3......5...164.....483.5...# minimal TE3

......7.9456....31......56..1......836.8.41.58..1.....5.164....63..18.5..483.5.1.# 9# 2#   440 FNBP C33/M1.3.39   #
.....67.9456....31......56..1...3..836.8.41.58..1.....5.164....63.....5..483.5.1.#-4# 2#   332 FNBP C33/M1.4.36   #
......7.9456....31.......6..1......836.8.4..58..1.......164....63.....5..483.5.1.# minimal TE3

1.3.56....5718...668.7.3..5.78....51...8..42....3...98..5....6..6.5......316.857.# 9# 1#  1904 FNBP C34/M2.59.333
1.........571....668.7.3..5.78.....1...8..42....3...98..........6.5......316.857.
1.........571....668.7.3..5.78....51...8..42....3....8.......6..6.5......316.857.
1.........5718...668.7.3..5.78.....1......42....3...98..........6.5......316.857.
1.........5718...668.7.3..5.78....51......42....3....8.......6..6.5......316.857.
1.........571....668.7.3..5.78.....1...8..42....3...98..5.......6.5......316.8.7.
1.........571....668.7.3..5.78....51...8..42....3....8..5....6..6.5......316.8.7.
1.........5718...668.7.3..5.78.....1......42....3...98..5.......6.5......316.8.7.
1.........5718...668.7.3..5.78....51......42....3....8..5....6..6.5......316.8.7.

......7.9456....31......56..1......863.8.41.58..1.....36..18.5.5.134.....486.5.1.#12# 2#   443 FNBP C33/M1.3.39     
......7.9456....31.......6..1......863.8.4..58..1.....36.....5...134.....486.5.1.
......7.9456....31.......6..1......863.8.41.58..1.....36.....5...134.....486.5...
......7.9456....31......56..1......863.8.4..58..1.....36.......5.134.....486.5.1.
......7.9456....31......56..1......863.8.41.58..1.....36.......5.134.....486.5...

......7.9456....31......56..1......836.8.41.58..1.....5.134....63..18.5..486.5.1.#12# 2#   443 FNBP C33/M1.3.39
......7.9456....31.......6..1......836.8.4..58..1.......134.....3.....5..486.5.1.
......7.9456....31.......6..1......836.8.41.58..1.......134.....3.....5..486.5...
......7.9456....31......56..1......836.8.4..58..1.....5.134.....3........486.5.1.
......7.9456....31......56..1......836.8.41.58..1.....5.134.....3........486.5...


All the B7B+ and TE3 puzzles were found from minimization and re-expansion of all new expanded B6B puzzles ...TE3 puzzles were much more common, but rarely both were produced.

I will post the expanded rather large cache of B6B puzzles in the TE2 thread
coloin
 
Posts: 2658
Joined: 05 May 2005
Location: Devon

Re: T&E(3) Puzzles (split from "hardest sudokus" thread)

Postby hendrik_monard » Tue Nov 11, 2025 5:36 pm

Hi coloin,

1.3.56....5718...668.7.3..5.78....51...8..42....3...98..5....6..6.5......316.857.
The solution of this puzzle (the first puzzle of the third group) is not in my B7B+solutions database. Has this puzzle been published before?
hendrik_monard
 
Posts: 134
Joined: 19 April 2021
Location: Leuven (Louvain) Belgium

Re: T&E(3) Puzzles (split from "hardest sudokus" thread)

Postby coloin » Tue Nov 11, 2025 11:53 pm

hendrik_monard wrote: Has this puzzle been published before?

Hi.... its in mastermax 16 in the TE2 thread, thought i had deleted it for a second ... !!

The additional TE3 puzzles were harder and harder to find... but still impossible to know how many more...

Maybe Paquita has generated some more on the side of the BxB search she did...
coloin
 
Posts: 2658
Joined: 05 May 2005
Location: Devon

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