The New Sudoku Players' Forum

[StrmCkr]

But, I need two explanations as follows:

the 2nd one can only exclude inside of the box as the center cell is include breaking the 2-string kite formation. { a quick check is to set it as true }

Code: Select all

+---------------+---------+---------------+
| .    (1)  .   | .  .  . | .    .    .   |
| (1)  (1)  (1) | .  .  . | .    (1)  .   |
| .    (1)  .   | .  .  . | .    .    .   |
+---------------+---------+---------------+
| .    .    .   | .  .  . | .    .    .   |
| .    .    .   | .  .  . | .    .    .   |
| .    .    .   | .  .  . | .    .    .   |
+---------------+---------+---------------+
| .    .    .   | .  .  . | -1   (1)  -1  |
| .    (1)  .   | .  .  . | (1)  (1)  (1) |
| .    .    .   | .  .  . | -1   (1)  -1  |
+---------------+---------+---------------+

if it was missing then it works like this and be a grouped 2 string kite + ERi

Code: Select all

+----------------+------------+---------------+
| .    (1)   .   | .   .   .  | .    .    .   |
| (1)  (-1)  (1) | -1  -1  -1 | -1   (1)  -1  |
| .    (1)   .   | .   .   .  | .    .    .   |
+----------------+------------+---------------+
| .    -1    .   | .   .   .  | .    .    .   |
| .    -1    .   | .   .   .  | .    .    .   |
| .    -1    .   | .   .   .  | .    .    .   |
+----------------+------------+---------------+
| .    -1    .   | .   .   .  | -1   (1)  -1  |
| .    (1)   .   | .   .   .  | (1)  .    (1) |
| .    -1    .   | .   .   .  | -1   (1)  -1  |
+----------------+------------+---------------+

Code: Select all

    --------------+-------------+-----------
        /  +Z    /  |  .   .   .  |  .  .   .
       +Z  +Z   +Z  | -Z   .  -Z  |  .  .   .
        /  +Z    /  |  .   .   .  |  .  .   .
      --------------+-------------+-----------
        .   .    .  |  .   .  -Z  |  .  .   .
        /  +Z    /  | +Z   /   /  |  /  /   /
        .   .    .  |  .   .  -Z  |  .  .   .
      --------------+-------------+-----------
        .   .    .  | -Z   .   .  |  .  .   .
        /  +Z    /  |  /   /  +Z  |  /  /   /
        .   .    .  | -Z   .   .  |  .  .   .
      --------------+-------------+-----------

is it Skyscraper Transport move if r46c6 and r79c4 excluded by basic Skyscraper move and r2c46 may be excluded by Transport ERI?

or you can view it as a combined view of three moves: 2 empty rectangles <> R2C46, and a skyscraper <> r46c6 and r79c4

like i said earlier i can make these extensions go very far easily... and rather not list them all, take this one for example.

Code: Select all

+-----------+-----------+---------------+
| .  .    . | .  .    . | .    .    .   |
| .  (1)  . | .  (1)  . | .    .    .   |
| .  .    . | .  .    . | .    .    .   |
+-----------+-----------+---------------+
| .  .    . | .  .    . | .    .    .   |
| .  .    . | .  (1)  . | .    (1)  .   |
| .  .    . | .  .    . | .    .    .   |
+-----------+-----------+---------------+
| .  .    . | .  .    . | .    (1)  .   |
| .  -1   . | .  -1   . | (1)  (1)  (1) |
| .  .    . | .  .    . | .    (1)  .   |
+-----------+-----------+---------------+

is no different then this one. {in fact the above is a subset of it}

Code: Select all

+-----------+-----------+---------------+
| .  .    . | .  .    . | .    .    .   |
| .  (1)  . | .  (1)  . | .    (1)  .   |
| .  .    . | .  .    . | .    .    .   |
+-----------+-----------+---------------+
| .  .    . | .  .    . | .    .    .   |
| .  (1)  . | .  (1)  . | .    (1)  .   |
| .  .    . | .  .    . | .    .    .   |
+-----------+-----------+---------------+
| .  .    . | .  .    . | .    (1)  .   |
| .  -1   . | .  -1   . | (1)  (1)  (1) |
| .  .    . | .  .    . | .    (1)  .   |
+-----------+-----------+---------------+

it was doing stuff like this that lead me on the path to coding a fish-finder instead of writing small functions for each point and case as there is too many of them with sub-variations.

[rjamil]

Hi StrmCkr,

Many thanks for quick response.

the 2nd one can only exclude inside of the box as the ERI cell is include. { a quick check is to set it as true }
…
if it was missing then it works like this and be a grouped 2 string kite + ERi

Thanks for the clarification. it means that there is one more scenario, in which, if center cell of a kite also contains digit Z then exclude Z from kite box rectangle/corner cells only.

or you can view it as a combined view of three moves: 2 empty rectangles <> R2C46, and a skyscraper <> r46c6 and r79c4

Yes, my program is able to detect three separate moves accordingly. So, there is no need of that Skyscraper Transport move.

like i said earlier i can make these extensions go very far easily... and rather not list them all, take this one for example.
…
is no different then this one. {in fact the above is a subset of it}
…
it was doing stuff like this that lead me on the path to coding a fish-finder instead of writing small functions for each point and case as there is too many of them with sub-variations.

I will let start studying complex fishes later. However, keeping your fish finder idea in safe place for future use.

R. Jamil

[SpAce]

That's a fun pattern! With a bit more symmetry it would look like a crab:

Code: Select all

  o----o
  :
  :    x   o
  :        |
  o        |
o o o......o
  o

Note: changed weak link from dashes to dots.

That was a good change. I just wanted to show the shape and didn't bother with the link types. Your version is better, of course.

I have compared above mentioned Crab pattern with Dual Empty Rectangle pattern, which is as follows:

Code: Select all

  x--------o
  :        |
  :        |
  :        |
  o        |
o o o......x
  o

May be there is any connection between Crab and Dual Empty Rectangle patterns.

Sure, as already covered in detail by StrmCkr. Another related pattern is the Grouped 2-String Kite:

Code: Select all

  o        x
  |
  |   
  |       
  o       
o   o------o
  o


Btw, does someone have good sample puzzles with those Grouped 2-String Kites? I'd like to collect a few samples of all six types of Turbot Fish (3 simple + 3 grouped). I can easily have Hodoku generate examples of the three simple types (Skyscraper, 2-String Kite, LoadeR Crane) and two of the grouped types (Grouped Skyscraper, TowER Crane), but the Grouped 2-String Kites aren't that easy to filter out, as Hodoku doesn't have that as a named technique nor does it have even generic Grouped X-Chains. I think as chains they only show up as Grouped DNLs, which include all multi-digit chains as well, making the lists very long and hard to filter by eye. Finned Mutant X-Wings are another possibility, which might have shorter lists to check -- I guess I'll try that next.

(Hodoku doesn't know "Grouped Skyscraper" either, but those can be found as Finned/Sashimi X-Wings, and "TowER Cranes" are simply ERs, of course. Our newly named "LoadeR Cranes" are naturally missing too, but they can be easily found as Turbot Fishes, ERs, or X-Chains. Thus, 5/6 are easy, and only the Grouped 2-String Kites seem hard to come by.)

[rjamil]

Hi SpAce,

Btw, does someone have good sample puzzles with those Grouped 2-String Kites?

By searching this forum "grouped 2-string kite" will give some examples.

Like for example this one.

R. Jamil

[StrmCkr]

By searching this forum "grouped 2-string kite" will give some examples.

might be easier to search google for that, as the forums search engine is terrible

[rjamil]

Hi StrmCkr,

might be easier to search google for that, as the forums search engine is terrible

Well, in Advanced Search option, by typing "grouped 2-string kite" in Search for keywords and selecting "puzzles" in Search in Forums might give some fruitful results.

R. Jamil

[SpAce]

might be easier to search google for that, as the forums search engine is terrible

Well, in Advanced Search option, by typing "grouped 2-string kite" in Search for keywords and selecting "puzzles" in Search in Forums might give some fruitful results.

I don't think dashes can be used in any words even in the advanced search, which is the biggest problem with the forum search engine. Searching for "grouped kite" does yield some results, however.

More importantly, I can now filter them from Hodoku relatively easily by looking for Finned Mutant X-Wings (as I suspected). Problem is, they seem pretty rare compared to all the other Turbot variants, so finding multiple sufficiently different examples might take time without an automated process. What I'd really love to find is examples of these kinds of extreme cases:

Code: Select all

  o        x
  |
  |   
  |       
o o o     
o   o------o
o o o

============

o          x
|
|   
|       
o o o     
o o o
  o o------o

============

o          x
|
|   
|       
o o o     
  o o------o
o o o

============

o          x
|
|   
|       
  o o -----o
o o o     
o o o

============

    o      x
    |
    |   
    |       
o o   -----o
o o o     
o o o


[rjamil]

Hi SpAce,

I don't think dashes can be used in any words even in the advanced search, which is the biggest problem with the forum search engine. Searching for "grouped kite" does yield some results, however.

Oops!!!. I searched "grouped 2 string kite" (without dash).

Search found 7 matches: grouped 2 string kite

second
third
fourth

Hope that helps.

Note: if you need the move in special shape/pattern, then shuffle rows and columns within grid to form desired pattern.

R. Jamil

[SpAce]

Search found 7 matches: grouped 2 string kite

second
third
fourth

Thanks! The "second" seems best as it has two group nodes. The "third" is an extended type so it won't do anyway as I'm looking for pure specimens.

Note: if you need the move in special shape/pattern, then shuffle rows and columns within grid to form desired pattern.

Good idea! Of course it can't add more candidates to the box, so I'd still like to find samples of those extreme cases.

[rjamil]

Hi SpAce,

Did you try the puzzle that I attached in my previous post as picture (taken from here)?

Code: Select all

..1789.2...........6........4.....6.5...............7..8.....4...9.1...32....5...
After Locked Candidate: 6 @ b3r1 move:
 +----------------------+---------------------------+--------------------------+
 | 34     3(5)   1      | 7         8       9       | 34(5)6    2       4(5)6  |
 | 34789  23579  234578 | 123456    23456   12346   | 1345789  13(5)89  145789 |
 | 34789  6      234578 | 12345     2345    1234    | 1345789  13(5)89  145789 |
 +----------------------+---------------------------+--------------------------+
 | 13789  4      2378   | 123589    23579   12378   | 123589   6        12589  |
 | 5      12379  23678  | 1234689   234679  1234678 | 123489   1389     12489  |
 | 13689  1239   2368   | 12345689  234569  123468  | 1234589  7        124589 |
 +----------------------+---------------------------+--------------------------+
 | 1367   8      3567   | 2369      23679   2367    | 125679   4        125679 |
 | 467    7-5    9      | 2468      1       24678   | 25678    (5)8     3      |
 | 2      137    3467   | 34689     34679   5       | 16789    189      16789  |
 +----------------------+---------------------------+--------------------------+

R. Jamil

[SpAce]

Did you try the puzzle that I attached in my previous post as picture

Oh, I kind of missed that, thanks! That's a nice example otherwise, but the puzzle has multiple solutions I'd prefer something from a valid puzzle.

[rjamil]

Hi SpAce,

As for challenge, trying to search "Grouped 2-String Kite" examples as per your requirement, found this post.

Just trying to empty/clear the kite box and luckily got success on second puzzle with unique solution as follows:

Code: Select all

2.....8...7..8......6..5..4.....45...3..7..8...76....13..1.........9..3...9..2..6#Original puzzle
2.....8...7.....9...6..5..4.....45...3..7..8...76....13..1......1..9..3...9..27.6#Modified version

After 5 HS and a LC, the puzzle pm state is as follows:

Code: Select all

 +-------------------+------------------+---------------+
 | 2     459   1345  | 3479  1346   139 | 8    567 357  |
 | 1458  7     13458 | 2348  123468 138 | 1236 9   235  |
 | 189   89    6     | 23789 1238   5   | 123  27  4    |
 +-------------------+------------------+---------------+
 | 1689  289   18    | 2389  1238   4   | 5    267 2379 |
 | 14569 3     145   | 259   7      19  | 2469 8   29   |
 | 4589  24589 7     | 6     2358   389 | 2349 24  1    |
 +-------------------+------------------+---------------+
 | 3     6     2458  | 1     458    7   | 249  245 2589 |
 | 7     1     2458  | 458   9      6   | 24   3   258  |
 | 458   458   9     | 3458  3458   2   | 7    1   6    |
 +-------------------+------------------+---------------+

Found Grouped 2-String Kite...

R. Jamil

[SpAce]

Found Grouped 2-String Kite...

Wow! That seems perfect. Thanks a lot, R. Jamil!

Code: Select all

.---------------------.---------------------------.-------------------.
| 2      459    1345  |  3479      1346    b1[3]9 |  8      567  357  |
| 1458   7      13458 |  2348      123468  b1[3]8 |  1236   9    235  |
| 189    89     6     | a2[3]789  a12[3]8   5     | a12(3)  27   4    |
:---------------------+---------------------------+-------------------:
| 1689   289    18    |  2389      1238     4     |  5      267  2379 |
| 14569  3      145   |  259       7        19    |  2469   8    29   |
| 4589   24589  7     |  6         2358   b(3)89  |  249-3  24   1    |
:---------------------+---------------------------+-------------------:
| 3      6      2458  |  1         458      7     |  249    245  2589 |
| 7      1      2458  |  458       9        6     |  24     3    258  |
| 458    458    9     |  3458      3458     2     |  7      1    6    |
'---------------------'---------------------------'-------------------'

Grouped 2-String Kite:

(3)r3c[7=45] - (3)r[12=6]c6 => -3 r6c7