The New Sudoku Players' Forum

by **zebedeezbd** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:12 pm

It has been a recurrent theme in this forum over the past week or so, the question of the repeated contradictions and paradoxes printed by The Times in their ever more ridiculous attempt to make clear the rules of Killer Sudoku. It has gradually been becoming clear that what The Times has been trying to say all along is that numbers CAN be repeated within the dotted enclosed areas ("cages") provided the normal constraints of sudoku are not violated. (Although thus far it has not proved necessary to repeat a digit within a cage to solve a Killer Sudoku published by The Times.)

HOWEVER! There is new and compelling evidence to suggest that The Times is STILL getting it wrong. Let me explain why I have changed my mind on this debate.

If you look at the website of Miyuki Misawa (the very person who compiles the Killer Sudokus for The Times) we see a detailed description of how to play Killer Sudoku, including this:

The same number doesn't enter in joined squares of dotted lines.

Oh dear! It sounds to me like, after days of bungling attempts to clarify the issue of the rules, The Times has clarified the WRONG rule. Because surely if anyone knows how to play these puzzles, it must be the man who created them!

Links to Miyuki Misawa's website:
http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~sumnumberplace/98380286/ (How to Play Killer Sudoku)
http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~sumnumberplace/47786508/ (Miyuki Misawa's Profile)

by **PaulIQ164** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:23 pm

It seems that the Times has noticed the problem, and have tried to fix it by changing "CAN" to "CANNOT" in the rules. Unfortunately, this means it now reads:

"Within each dotted-line 'shape', a digit CANNOT be repeated if the normal row, column and 3x3 box rules are not broken,"

which unfortunately implies that you can repeat a digit in a cage, but only if it also breaks the regular sudoku rules.

by **Karyobin** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:57 pm

Yes. This brings to mind a specific mathematical concept which I have, on occasion, taught my students. It is, at the highest level, referred to as Bollocks.

by Pi » Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:10 pm

I searched the times website for an e-mnail adress but can't find one, if i do i will e-mail them givings links to these threads

by **zebedeezbd** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:29 pm

Pi wrote:I searched the times website for an e-mnail adress but can't find one

You didn't look hard enough!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,260,00.html

by **udosuk** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:42 pm

zebedeezbd wrote:Because surely if anyone knows how to play these puzzles, it must be the man who created them!

Just to clarify, Miyuki Misawa is a WOMAN, not a man. Guys here will be surprised how many brilliant Japanese puzzlers are female. (BTW I'm a guy but one that very respectful to the intellectual power of the opposite sex.)

And the first time I read the Times article I had a feeling that no digit duplication within dotted lines was implied. Otherwise it wouldn't mention the hint "a group of 3 cells with a sum of 6 must be 1,2,3", for a L-shaped group could well be "1,4,1" if duplication is allowed...

Finally, it's quite obvious why Pi couldn't find the "e-mnail adress" in the Times website... Ummm... Tried to google that term, and found a total of 3 hits... so at least somebody else in this planet speaks that language...

(Just in a joking mood, please don't get too serious... ^_^)

by **boaz** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:04 pm

I sent my letter to

puzzles@thetimes.co.uk

by **zebedeezbd** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:19 pm

udosuk wrote:Just to clarify, Miyuki Misawa is a WOMAN, not a man.

Oops, sorry! I guess alarm bells should have rung when I read in his, err, her online provile that he, err, she likes "puzzle and flower".

by **Karyobin** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:20 pm

Quite right, Miyuki is obviously a woman's name, but I think you'll find it's Miyuki Nisawa, speaking as an ardent Japanophile.

I know, I'm being picky. I'm bored. I'll watch the news.

by **zebedeezbd** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:28 pm

Karyobin wrote:Quite right, Miyuki is obviously a woman's name, but I think you'll find it's Miyuki Nisawa.

Pehaps you should let her know then. She seems to be under the impression it's Misawa. (As do The Times when mentioning her.)

by **tso** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:41 pm

As usual, I am vindicated.

The links above didn't work -- maybe they were changed. Try:
http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~sumnumberplace/

I don't believe giving "flower" as a hobby implies one gender over another, especially in Japan.

by **Karyobin** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:45 pm

TheTimesOnline wrote:The original samunamupure was devised a few years ago by Miyuki Nisawa, one of the puzzle-master’s most accomplished pupils. Under his tutelage she has further sharpened the puzzle’s bite, gradually stretching its difficulty while retaining the appallingly addictive qualities of the Su Doku genre. Others have joined her in honing the puzzles.

Try to Google "Miyuki Misawa" (in quotes). Zero hits, I think you'll find. And with regard to the profile, perhaps she didn't actually write it, or maybe the translation program is in error.

tso wrote:I don't believe giving "flower" as a hobby implies one gender over another, especially in Japan.

Quite right, ikebana for all!

by **udosuk** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:50 pm

Karyobin wrote:Quite right, Miyuki is obviously a woman's name, but I think you'll find it's Miyuki Nisawa, speaking as an ardent Japanophile.

I don't think so. From the profile (both English and Japanese) it clearly states the surname is Misawa. And believe me I read both Japanese and Chinese. The Kanji form of her surname reads exactly as Misawa without doubt, meaning "3 lakes". Unless you know this lady personally and she told you that her REAL surname is Nisawa (meaning "2 lakes" or "new lakes") instead ^_^.

Can't quite catch the meaning of "ardent Japanophile" though...

by **Karyobin** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:53 pm

Then it would see we have a conundrum. The Google statement stands, as does the Times'.

by **udosuk** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:09 pm

The conundrum lies in the blind trust to Times' credibility and people's false belief of google's power on foreign subjects (especially if searched by English). If you google her Japanese name, "三沢美由紀" (set your browser encoding to Japanese if you can't read this phrase), you'll find 88 hits and most of them from large Japanese publisher sites. You can notice the term "misawa" in some of the address.

Not to mention the fact that the site ZBD introduced is written by the lady herself, and I have every reason to believe both the Japanese and English versions are written by her personally, not by some translation program.

Looks like the Times people made another blunder again...

The New Sudoku Players' Forum

["Killer"] New Evidence that The Times is WRONG!

["Killer"] New Evidence that The Times is WRONG!