The New Sudoku Players' Forum

[QBasicMac]

Calling Wayne

Your organization of this website is confusing to me.

I see a place to discuss changes to your program.

But what about changes to the website itself?

So I am posting here.

Of course, I agree that it is your website to organize as you please. You could establish a subforum for "Puzzles which people from Ireland are having trouble with", "Puzzles which Muslims are having trouble with", etc.

It's your site. You do as you please.

But I submit it is irritating and frustrating for SuDoku guys like me.

I envision ONE site: A place where anyone goes who is have any problem with any SuDoku puzzle from any source.

You post the problem and people post advice and help.

The end.

Instead, the poor person with the problem is forced to think "What was the source of this puzzle?" and go to one of 4 subforums, 3 in one place and 1 in another.

This is REALLY poor and is a misuse of the SuDoku.com URL that you own. You owe it to the world to do better than that.

ONE and ONLY ONE forum for people to post puzzles that they are stuck on. Whether they got them from a Pappocom source or made them up themselves or whatever.

ONE and ONLY ONE.

I suggest the other subforums be shut down or restricted as follows:
Pappocom puzzles that were posted in error in newpaper ....
etc.

I really see no need for more than ONE.

Please don't ignore this like you did my previous plea!

Mac

[lunababy_moonchild]

But what about changes to the website itself?

The Address for the Forum itself is found at the very bottom of the page.

Suggestions are always welcome and can be discussed here in Off-Topic.

The layout, however, is determined by Wayne so I'll leave that to him.

Please don't ignore this like you did my previous plea!

I'm sorry that you feel ignored, I'll do as much as I can to help with your points, although sarcasm is not really warranted, imho, even if you do feel ignored.

Luna

[Pi]

As this site is run by Pappocom one of the main purposes for the forum is for support with Pappocom puzzles and the pappocom program.

The solutions to any published pappocom puzzle can be found in the solutions page and advice and tips are given in the forums.

[emm]

I think Pi has a point. It’s a Pappocom forum and it’s set up to separate Pappocom puzzles from the rest and to retain a Pappocom identity.

However, it is true that we do have a lot of sections and that the instructions to use them are complicated. In March (I'm not obsessive, it was just a quick check!) over 80 puzzles were posted in Help with Particular Puzzles almost all unnamed sources, about a dozen in Pappocom puzzles - some incorrectly - and at least half the 12 Non-Pappocom postings in the wrong place – and some may have been moved already.

It’s understandable that newcombers overwhelmingly post in HwPP - it has the magic word ‘HELP’ and it’s the first on the list. Perhaps if that’s where they’re going to post anyway then we should look at the other headings.

The main divisions are (generally speaking) – Pappocom / Non Pappocom, Beginner / Advanced, Published / Unpublished. To me the last one is the least important but it is the main division in the forum. I realise there may be a good reason for this but it makes it extra complicated because the subgroups overlap. We have unpublished and published Pappocom for example and even now I’m not sure where to post a question about an unpublished variant.

I think there is an issue here and I think it’s worth looking at. Personally I don’t mind how many sections there are. I don’t mind hopping about the forum if there are good reasons for distinguishing between the sections, but I do think it could be simplified for the purposes of clarity.

I would also like to see the information about where to place a puzzle removed from the Sticky : How to Ask for Help at the top of HwPP. IMO the Sticky would be clearer if it focussed simply on How to Post the Puzzle – since it will almost certainly go in HwPP anyway – and the instructions about which section to post in are confusing and reduce the chances of the 'how to' part being read. The line of small print under each section on the index page should be enough to explain what each forum is for.

[Cec]

I too support the intention of Mac's post and emm's comments which also express my similar confusion, and particularly for newcomers, as to where and how to post puzzles.

I would like to see simpler instructions for newcomers as to how to post puzzles and emphasizing the forum is about how to solve puzzles and not posting the solution. I don't believe the word "Sticky" is appropriate to encourage newcomers to read the rest of the thread on "how to ask for help".
Cec

[Pappocom]

I've modified the wording under the "Pappocom Papers" forum. My expectation is that the forum be used for questions such as -
* Is Paper X running Pappocom puzzles?
* Did Paper X make a mistake in printing today's puzzle?
* Where can I find the solution to today's puzzle?
* How can Paper X get Pappocom puzzles for free?

In other words, it's more about the papers than the puzzles. I wouldn't expect the "Pappocom Papers" forum to be particularly active.

Questions about solving a puzzle in a Pappocom paper should really go in the "Help with Particular Puzzles" forum, but I'm not going to get worried if they are posted in "Pappocom Papers". It doesn't matter that much, does it?

Similarly, if for some reason I decide to move a topic from one forum to another, it shouldn't be taken as a rebuke of the poster. It's just house-keeping. Clearly, human activity does not fall conveniently into 10 or 12 neat divisions ... there will always be cross-over areas where different people have different ideas about assignment.

At one time, there was a point in keeping issues about the solving of Pappocom Sudokus separate from the solving of Sudokus generally. I was concerned that the public might confuse low-quality or bad puzzles with Pappocom. Now the public is getting more sudoku-sophisticated and aware.

However, if I think there's a risk that a new reader might confuse a Pappocom puzzle with a non-Pappocom puzzle or vice versa, I reserve the right to transfer a post from "Help with Particular Puzzles" to "Pappocom Papers" or "Non-Pappocom", as appropriate.

My main message is this. Don't spend too much time worrying about where to post, just carry on posting!

Thanks for your input.

- Wayne

[QBasicMac]

My main message is this. Don't spend too much time worrying about where to post, just carry on posting!

So a person who has obtained a SuDoku puzzle from any source and wants help can enter "www.sudoku.com" and find the forum "Help with particular puzzles" and post there without having us say that it should have been posted elsewhere.

In fact, in general, we should refrain from telling people which forum to post in, but instead just answer their questions.

You will move threads around if need be.

Great! Thanks, Wayne!

[Animator]

Ok, Now I'm a bit confused with what should go where... (Trying to understand this completly so that I can update my 'New topics'-thread)

• Pappocom Papers: Wayne, from your reply I take it that puzzles should no longer go in here. But you left some room for confusion... The What this forum is for isn't updated to represent this change...
  
• Sudoku Books from Pappocom: Is it intended for puzzles? Or just some general ideas/comments about the books? If puzzles from Pappocom Papers should go in Help with particular puzzles then shouldn't these be posted there aswell? Which might make this forum the same as Pappocom Papers... (meaning: maybe they should be merged in one forum?)
  
• Non-Pappocom:
  

  At one time, ... I was concerned that the public might confuse low-quality or bad puzzles with Pappocom.

  
  Does this imply that this doesn't concern you anymore? If so, does this mean that the forum should no longer be used?
  
• Sudoku variants: It still has a valid usage (in my opinion) since it's too easy to confuse a Sudoku X (for example) with a tradional Sudoku... But perhaps it should be moved closer to 'Help with particular puzzles'?

The way I see it there should be either 2 or 3 forums where puzzles should be posted:

• a)
  • One forum that holds all the tradional Sudoku puzzles (not nessesarily 9x9)
  • One forum that holds the variants
• b)
  • One forum for unpublished puzzles (found on websites, generated by a program, ...)
  • One forum for published puzzles: this with the purpose of making it easier to find the puzzle if a question has already been posted about it
  • Sudoku-Variants forum

Any comments on this?

[QBasicMac]

Any comments on this?

Heh, I presume you meant "Any comments from Wayne on this?"

But still, it was not to clear (to always-confused-me) how your list adds up to "2 or 3".

Currently we have

Section: Sudoku: The Puzzle
1) Help with particular puzzles
2) Advanced solving techniques
3) General/puzzle

Section:
4) Pappocom papers
5) Sudoku Books from Pappocom
6) Non-Pappocom
7) Sudoku variants

Wayne indicated that (1) is to be used for all 9x9 traditional puzzles regardless of source.

He didn't say anything about other puzzles regarded as "traditional sudoku" such as overlapping puzzles. I presume they will normally be posted in (7), but don't know. Not too clear the purpose of (7).

(6) is relatively meaningless in all this context unless it refers to puzzles published under someone else's name in possible copyright violation.

(4) and (5) are for discussing Pappocom puzzles as published, for example published in error or maybe a newspaper identified that might be a good candidate for a sales call. They are not for posting puzzles that one is having trouble solving.

So there you have it. I also understood from Wayne that he didn't want anyone to worry about specific errors in posting. If someone posts a puzzle, regardless of source or type, in any random subforum, we should treat it as if it were posted in the correct place and supply help as usual.

I'm thankful you are planning an update to the instructions newbies read. That should focus the great majority into (1). Newbies have no reason to post in the other forums IMHO and they are already confused on how to solve a puzzle - why additionally give them a 9x9 matrix of subforums and challenge them to find the right one to post in. LOL.

Mac

[Animator]

Hmm... I see I haven't been to clear...
I was talking only about places to post puzzles, not discussing things

As it is now puzzles are posted in: Help with particular puzzles, Pappocom papers, Sudoku Books from Pappocom, Non-Pappocom, Sudoku variants.

Puzzles are not posted in: Advanced solving techniques, General/puzzle

What I would like to see is that the places were puzzles can/should be posted goes down from 5 to 2 or 3. The Advanced solving techniques and General/puzzle forums should stay as they are. The Pappocom Papers forum could become a place to discuss things related to the paper (errors, layout, ...).

Of course we shouldn't care too much where a puzzle is posted, not answering a question because it's posted in the wrong place would be silly, but there should be a general idea behind it. In my opinoin, if there is no idea behind it then there is no reason why there should be seperate forums.

And I feel that it is that idea that should be listed in the New topics - How to ask for help thread... If it's not there then how can people ever post in the 'correct' place?

[emm]

The way I see it there should be either 2 or 3 forums were puzzles should be posted:

• a)
  • One forum that holds all the tradional Sudoku puzzles (not nessesarily 9x9)
  • One forum that holds the variants
    
• b)
  • One forum for unpublished puzzles (found on websites, generated by a program, ...)
  • One forum for published puzzles: this with the purpose of making it easier to find the puzzle if a question has already been posted about it
  • Sudoku-Variants forum

Any comments on this?

I don't think the distinction between published and unpublished holds a lot of water. When was the last time a puzzle was posted twice and no-one noticed? And anyway would it really matter - help arrives in nanoseconds for any puzzle regardless of where it comes from and whether or not it’s been seen before. To me this is a confusing distinction.

The Advanced solving techniques, and General/puzzle forum should stay as they are.

These two are in the puzzle section too - so where do they fit into Option 1 & 2?

Quite a few difficult puzzles are posted in Advanced Techniques and it seems to me that beginner / advanced is a natural division for the puzzle section.

Why not go with Option 1 but divide it into Beginner / Advanced / Variants.

And I feel that it is that idea that should be listed in the New topics - How to ask for help thread... If it's not there then how can people ever post in the 'correct' place?

If there is now only one correct section in which to post a puzzle and if it's divided into Beginner / Advanced / Variants then it's self explanatory and the Sticky wouldn’t need to give instructions about where to post.

[Animator]

And anyway would it really matter - help arrives in nanoseconds for any puzzle regardless of where it comes from and whether or not it’s been seen before.

Which is why it is listed as option b), not option a)

The Advanced solving techniques, and General/puzzle forums should stay as they are.

These two are in the puzzle section too - so where do they fit into Option 1 & 2?

Do note that I said 'stay as they are' not 'stay where they are'. My previous posts were about where puzzles should be posted. In what particular sections they go is mostly irrelevant (for the time being)...

Quite a few difficult puzzles are posted in Advanced Techniques

In Advanced solving techniques there are no post (or at least not that I can immedialy spot) that ask for help in solving the puzzles.

Mosts post in that forum are about discussing a solving technique and/or 'intresting' puzzles (which comes with an explenation of how it was solved and why it is intresting).

and it seems to me that beginner / advanced is a natural division for the puzzle section.

It's not natural. For example, what's the difference between beginner and advanced?
When should one post a puzzle in beginner and when in advanced?
Should it be based on the numbers of puzzle somone solved?
Should it be based on the techniques that are required (which you don't know if you need help)?
Should it be based on how the person thinks about the puzzle (in which case 95% goes in Advanced)?

[emm]

I don't actually mind if you don't agree with me, Animator - you did ask for comments.

Whichever way you organise it - and you can split it into solutions / techniques if you want - you're always going to get an overlap. There isn't going to be a perfect system so you're just looking for a sensible way to divide it up.

Sure there'll be overlap with beginner / advanced - I just think it would generally keep most of the "Please Help Me This Is Really Really Hard" ones separate from most of the "Uniqueness #5001" ones.

It's not true that solutions aren't asked for in Advanced Techniques either - this one was even moved there.

I don't know the answer to this - the only thing I do know is that however you decide to rationalise it, the published / unpublished division makes the least sense to me.

[Animator]

It's not true that solutions aren't asked for in Advanced Techniques either -this one was even moved there.

I think you got it wrong... If the overview says Moved: .... then it means that particular message has been moved to another forum.

Originally the message was posted in Advanced solving techniques. After that it was moved (either by Wayne or by Scott) to Help with particular puzzles.

Occasionally someone might post a request for help in Advanced solving techniques but if that happens the post will (most likely) be moved to the other forum.

[emm]

Yes, you're right - my mistake about the moved thread - but it doesn’t alter the fact that whichever way you look at it – solutions or techniques - the bulk of ‘puzzles’ logically divides into beginner / advanced not published / unpublished.