How regular is to generate sudoku with difficulty 9+ SE?

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Postby StrmCkr » Thu May 10, 2007 7:33 am

i thought *** i found something for the
easter monster puzzle ... but nope not at all

still needs 3 cells to solve as singles...

edited
Last edited by StrmCkr on Thu May 10, 2007 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby RW » Thu May 10, 2007 8:24 am

StrmCkr wrote:i reset the puzzle activated
8c4 = 2
then choose
R6c2 = 6

the puzzle solved as singles.

Where is the next single?
Code: Select all
 *-----------*
 |17.|...|..2|
 |.9.|4.7|.5.|
 |..6|...|7..|
 |---+---+---|
 |.5.|9.3|.7.|
 |...|.7.|...|
 |.67|85.|.4.|
 |---+---+---|
 |7..|...|62.|
 |.3.|2.9|.87|
 |..2|7..|..1|
 *-----------*


RW
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Postby StrmCkr » Thu May 10, 2007 8:58 am

well i was going to delete that. i found a mistake in the above (im hand checking it. ) i used a x-wing, sword fish after that point to solve it as singles.

using SS holding down f11 to show singles quickly. missed the 2 moves in my inital passes.. then posted that.

found it after wards. but im having problems loggin into here? (more like staying logged in?) so i didn't get a chance to delete it befor u responded. finally got logged in again.

any one know how to fix this problem? i can log into this site, but im not logged in at all my name shows up as active users but i can't post or check msgs ect. ???

editing the above.
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Postby coloin » Thu May 10, 2007 11:22 am

I just thought I would comment on gsf's excellent attempts at sorting out the propositional clues in these hard puzles and has come up with a fairly robust rating value.

How does this agree with other raters ? - in particular AW

Here is his top 16
rating,SER,gsfsuxrat,puzzle,label
99408,114,1895,100000002090400050006000700050903000000070000000850040700000600030009080002000001,Easter-Monster
98898,113,1512,100000089000009102000000400007600000030040000900002005004070000500008010060300000,tarek-4/08
98771,110,1504,100000002003400050060000700000890040000306000009040000020000100700000006005080030,jpf-04/14/08
96523,110,2262,100000002003400050060000700000050040000301000008940000020000100700000006005090030,jpf-04-10
96039,111,1991,100000006020500040003000700040850000000010000000024080007000300050009020600000001,coloin-04/10/05
95553,111,1600,100000002003400050060000700000045080000906000004380000020000100700000006005030090,jpf-04/14/06
95504,114,2006,100000002003400050060000700000850090000306000008090000020000100700000006009080030,jpf-04/14/B4
95431,109,1228,100000002090400050006000700050903000000070005000800040700000600030009080002000001,coloin-04/16/1a
95366,110,1655,100000002003400050060000700000308040000006000008540000020000100700000006005090030,jpf-04/14/05
95318,106,1061,500000009030007040001000200080601000000020000000930080002000100070400030900000005,ultra0210
95274,112,1453,100000002030400050006000700050803000000074000000900080700000600090008030002000001,jpf-04/14/02,
95271,108,1611,100000009040008030002000600070034000000702000000850070006000200080300040900000001,ultra0208
95260,108,1396,100000002030400050006000700080309000000070000000500040700000600050003080002000001,jpf-04/14/04
95249,111,2197,100000006020500040003000700040802000000060000000045080700000300050009020006000001,coloin-04/10/02
95218,107,1402,600000002090400050001000700050903000000560000000200040007000600030009080200000001,coloin-04/13-1097-d
95212,107,1419,100000002030400050006000700080309000000070000000500040700000600040003080002000001,jpf-04/14/03



As an aside I have tried to find out why our 16 clue templates have these low grid solution rates
Code: Select all
1.......9.2..4..7...3...5............4.....8............5...3...8..2..4.9.......1   108864 sol.
This one had the lowest and it apparently doesnt insert any clues, normally 16 clues gives a grid solution rate of 4 million.

Well I have found the reason !
The clue was that there was 8-fold symmetry - all puzzles from this template had 8 isomorphs.
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|1..|...|..9|
|.2.|.4.|.7.|
|..3|...|5..|
+---+---+---+
|...|...|...|
|.4.|...|.8.|
|...|...|...|
+---+---+---+
|..5|...|3..|
|.8.|.2.|.4.|
|9..|...|..1|
+---+---+---+

looking at the pencil marks for this grid.....why can the 6 clue not go in r7c1 or r9c3 ?
[after all there are no 6s in the puzzle - it shouldnt really be constrained]

The reason is that the 8 ways to complete a 4-rookery in this subgrid are equivalent
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|1..|...|..9|
|.2.|.4.|.7.|
|..3|...|5..|
+---+---+---+
|...|4..|...|
|.4.|...|.8.|
|...|...|...|
+---+---+---+
|..5|..4|3..|
|.8.|.2.|.4.|
|9..|...|..1|
+---+---+---+
 4 added at r4c4 - the 4 corners of box 5 are equivalent
 4 added to r7c6 - the 2 options in box 8 are equivalent [?]
which completes to
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|1..|...|4.9|
|.2.|.4.|.7.|
|4.3|...|5..|
+---+---+---+
|...|4..|...|
|.4.|...|.8.|
|...|...|..4|
+---+---+---+
|2.5|..4|3..|
|.8.|.2.|.4.|
|9.4|...|..1|
+---+---+---+13608 sols

This effect is possibly going on in our 16-clue templates which provide our hardest grids.

C
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Are these on anyone's hardest list?

Postby ronk » Fri May 11, 2007 9:54 pm

Before I start to run ER ratings on my 450 MHz computer, would someone please let me know if equivalents already exist?

Thanks in advance, Ron
Code: Select all
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......6.......8.2.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1  #21; gsfr=99473
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......6.9.....8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1  #21; gsfr=97707
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......7.......8.2.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1  #21; gsfr=99491
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...549.3.......6.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1  #21; gsfr=97760
5.......9.2...1.7...8...3...4.6.........5.......2.7.1...3...8...6...4.2.9.......5  #20; gsfr=99435
5.......9.2...1.7...8...3...4.6.........8.......2.7.1...3...8...6...4.2.9.......5  #20; gsfr=99464
6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5..8....4...2.......3.5.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1  #21; gsfr=99376
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Postby coloin » Fri May 11, 2007 10:23 pm

No none of them are in gsfs recent hardest....and he took them from the thread.

But no 5 and no 6 are isomorphs !

Here is the -q1 results
Code: Select all
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......6.......8.2.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 # 41954 FNP C21.m/S2.d/M2.14.16380
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......6.9.....8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 #  3408 FNP C21.m/M2.79.166
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......7.......8.2.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 # 15665 FNP C21.m/S2.d/M2.46.142
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...549.3.......6.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 # 20796 FNP C21.m/M2.13.15120
5.......9.2...1.7...8...3...4.6.........8.......2.7.1...3...8...6...4.2.9.......5 # 25180 FNP C20.m/M2.9.21141
6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5..8....4...2.......3.5.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1 # 95071 FNP C21.m/M2.5.36736

I have revisited this template - it belongs to coloin-04/10/05
Code: Select all
1.......6.2.5...4...3...7...4.......................8...7...3...5...9.2.6.......1 # 403696 sol.# 4 isomorphs per puzzle

Code: Select all
coloin-04/10/05
96039,111,1991,1.......6.2.5...4...3...7...4.85........1........24.8...7...3...5...9.2.6.......1 # 96039 FNP C21.m/S2.p/M3.1458.364

Another M3 puzzle [Edited to the template]
Code: Select all
coloin-05/11/01
95596,111,0000,1.......6.2.5...4...3...7...4.89.......2.4.......15.8...7...3...5...9.2.6.......1 # 95600 FNP C22.m/S4.da/M3.1646.322



C
Last edited by coloin on Sat May 12, 2007 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby AW » Sat May 12, 2007 3:24 pm

coloin wrote:How does this agree with other raters ? - in particular AW


Well, as you might expect, Solver's results are somewhat different. Here's what he had to say :

Code: Select all
99408,114,1895,100000002090400050006000700050903000000070000000850040700000600030009080002000001
Easter-Monster .......... 12 swords - 3 jellies
98898,113,1512,100000089000009102000000400007600000030040000900002005004070000500008010060300000
tarek-4/08 .............. 8 swords - 1 jelly
98771,110,1504,100000002003400050060000700000890040000306000009040000020000100700000006005080030
jpf-04/14/08 ............ 1 sword
96523,110,2262,100000002003400050060000700000050040000301000008940000020000100700000006005090030
jpf-04-10 ............... 1 sword
96039,111,1991,100000006020500040003000700040850000000010000000024080007000300050009020600000001
coloin-04/10/05 ......... 9 swords
95553,111,1600,100000002003400050060000700000045080000906000004380000020000100700000006005030090
jpf-04/14/06 ............ 7 swords - 1 jelly
95504,114,2006,100000002003400050060000700000850090000306000008090000020000100700000006009080030
jpf-04/14/B4 ............ 13 swords - 1 jelly
95431,109,1228,100000002090400050006000700050903000000070005000800040700000600030009080002000001
coloin-04/16/1a ......... 1 sword
95366,110,1655,100000002003400050060000700000308040000006000008540000020000100700000006005090030
jpf-04/14/05 ............ 1 sword
95318,106,1061,500000009030007040001000200080601000000020000000930080002000100070400030900000005
ultra0210 ............... No swords (Not even a split)
95274,112,1453,100000002030400050006000700050803000000074000000900080700000600090008030002000001
jpf-04/14/02 ............ 1 sword
95271,108,1611,100000009040008030002000600070034000000702000000850070006000200080300040900000001
ultra0208 ............... No swords (3 splits)
95260,108,1396,100000002030400050006000700080309000000070000000500040700000600050003080002000001
jpf-04/14/04 ............ 1 sword
95249,111,2197,100000006020500040003000700040802000000060000000045080700000300050009020006000001
coloin-04/10/02 ......... 6 swords - 1 jelly
95218,107,1402,600000002090400050001000700050903000000560000000200040007000600030009080200000001
coloin-04/13-1097-d ..... 1 sword
95212,107,1419,100000002030400050006000700080309000000070000000500040700000600040003080002000001
jpf-04/14/03 ............ 1 sword


Which adds a couple to the jelly list :
Code: Select all
100000002090400050006000700050903000000070000000850040700000600030009080002000001
JPF 04/07/1 Easter Monster ............. 12 swords - 3 jellies
003000009400000020080600100200004000090800007005030000000900800000005030070010006
dml 1/07 ............................... 17 swords - 1 jelly
000001020300040500000600007002000001080090030400000800500002000090030400006700000
Ocean's New Year's present for RW ...... 13 swords - 1 jelly
100000002003400050060000700000850090000306000008090000020000100700000006009080030
JPF 04/14/B4 ........................... 13 swords - 1 jelly
100000089000009102000000400007600000030040000900002005004070000500008010060300000
Tarek 04/08/2 .......................... 8 swords - 1 jelly
100000002003400050060000700000045080000906000004380000020000100700000006005030090
jpf-04/14/06 ........................... 7 swords - 1 jelly
100000002030400050006000700050804000000073000000900080700000600040008090002000001
JPF 04/14/01 ........................... 6 swords - 1 jelly
100000006020500040003000700040802000000060000000045080700000300050009020006000001
coloin-04/10/02 ........................ 6 swords - 1 jelly
500000009020100070008000300040702000000090000000460010300000800060004020009000005
Coloin St.Patrick 1 .................... 5 swords - 1 jelly


(Sorry for the ugly formatting. Too stupid to figure out how to combine "code" and "size" tags.)
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Postby coloin » Sun May 13, 2007 4:58 pm

Thanks AW
Code: Select all
SER,puzzle,tag
114,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5..84.......2.......3.5.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1600
114,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.3.4.......6........58.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1414
113,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.3.4......96.........8.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1426
114,200000006050080010004000900070301000000820000000705030009000400080010050600000002,ultra0203

These grids had a high ER [and took gsf >7 hours to get the ER !] what do you make of them ?

C
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Postby AW » Sun May 13, 2007 10:37 pm

Well, ultra0203 is tame as compared to the other three, weighing in at 1 sword.

Don't remember seeing those other three posted before, have you been keeping them secret for a month!?

They broke the bank. Truly amazing. I shall be forced to complete Solver's last heuristic. On the bright side, we shall see if "tuthree" is enough! If not, well then, we'll see what can be done with "threefor". Perhaps quads really are relevant after all.

Y'all are definitely getting too good at finding those nasty critters.:D
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Postby coloin » Mon May 14, 2007 12:02 am

They were in a batch that gsf did [for me] !
They come from the 16 templates that I did before we lost interest !
Especially as the ER took 7 - 10 hours
These are the 8 different templates - based on Easter Monster template.

Code: Select all
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.......................4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1 - 676286 sol.  04/13-1426&-1414
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.......................4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1 - 691248 sol.
6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.......................4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1 - 708196 sol.
6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.......................4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1 - 682164 sol.

1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.......................4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 - 678104 sol. [ Easter monster &tarek04/08]
1.......7.9.4...5...6...2...5.......................4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 - 696188 sol.
6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.......................4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1 - 688096 sol.   04/13-1600
6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.......................4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 - 685046 sol.

gsf -q1 rating and ER time
Code: Select all
6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5..84.......2.......3.5.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1 # 60691 FNP C21.m/M2.1.505197
coloin-04/13-1600# ER 11.4  [10 hours]

1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.3.4.......6........58.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1 # 62440 FNP C21.m/M2.7.6559
coloin-04/13-1414# ER 11.4  [7 hours]

1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.3.4......96.........8.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1 # 62806 FNP C21.m/M2.8.20500
coloin-04/13-1426# ER 11.3  [7 hours]


ravel had spotted the 04/13-1600 and rated it highly here

C
Last edited by coloin on Sun May 13, 2007 8:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby gsf » Mon May 14, 2007 12:03 am

coloin wrote:Thanks AW
Code: Select all
SER,puzzle,tag
114,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5..84.......2.......3.5.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1600
114,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.3.4.......6........58.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1414
113,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.3.4......96.........8.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1426
114,200000006050080010004000900070301000000820000000705030009000400080010050600000002,ultra0203

These grids had a high ER [and took gsf >7 hours to get the ER !] what do you make of them ?

the first 3 have -q1 rating ~60000, the last is off, similar to AW, ~12000
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Postby wapati » Mon May 14, 2007 1:20 am

I am not very up on what you guys are doing here but I took one of the puzzles, posted by coloin, and jiggered it into this:

Code: Select all
1.......2
.9.4...5.
..6...7..
.5.3.4...
...91....
.....8.4.
..2...6..
.3...9.8.
7.......1


which SE chugs at and won't give me a rating. It is a valid puzzle, according to SE, but I get no rating.

What is so odd about this puzzle??
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Postby StrmCkr » Mon May 14, 2007 5:02 am

it has a back door size three (breaking the 2 door conjucture) makes it unique.

since it broke the back door conjecture explainer has a harder time finding a solution and list it as 11.4

(its hardest step is as hard as the other hardest puzzles found so far)

i think it rates as an old adage i remeber.. "someting is only as difficult as its most complex task."

and took over 7/hrs to solve > produce the rating.
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Postby coloin » Mon May 14, 2007 8:52 am

The puzzle that wapati posted is an isomorph of coloin-04/13-1426.

The 6 & the 1 are equivalent clues

As I understood gsf s rating it wasnt M3

I am not sure what to make of all these puzzles

They were generated en masse, rather easily, but tediously, with readily available software !

C
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Postby RW » Mon May 14, 2007 10:01 am

coloin wrote:I am not sure what to make of all these puzzles

I'm not sure what you want to make of them. If you are looking for potential high ER puzzles among the puzzles you haven't rated yet, I wouldn't bother to check any other than these:

1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.2.4.......8.......395.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1 # 99995 FNPG C22.m/M2.20.1640
6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.34........6.......8.5.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1 # 99992 FNPG C21.m/M2.69.95
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5..42......3........985.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 # 99992 FNPG C22.m/M2.31.422
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.........18......5.3.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 # 99992 FNPG C21.m/M2.36.728
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.948........5......31..4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1 # 99992 FNPG C22.m/M2.102.64
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9........345......8.7.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 # 99992 FNPG C22.m/M2.89.73
6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.9.1.......63......5...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 # 99992 FNPG C21.m/M2.53.123
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5..93......8.4......7.5.4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1 # 99992 FNPG C22.m/M2.96.68
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.3.7.......4.......985.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 # 99992 FNPG C22.m/M2.29.678
6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.3.4.......65......28..4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1 # 99992 FNPG C22.m/M2.66.99
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.2......86........35.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 # 99991 FNPG C22.m/S2.d/M2.32.615
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5...4......31.......9.8.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 # 99991 FNPG C21.m/M2.33.594
6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.1.8.......64......35..4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1 # 99991 FNPG C22.m/S2.a/M2.68.96
1.......7.9.4...5...6...2...5.6.4.......13......58..4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 # 99991 FNPG C22.m/M2.28.1638
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.8.7......92........35.4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1 # 99991 FNPG C22.m/S2.d/M2.32.205
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.394.......5........87.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 # 99991 FNPG C22.m/M2.69.95
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.3.4.......6.......85..4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1 # 99991 FNPG C21.m/M2.45.435


They were the only with a -q hardest rating > 99990. All known puzzles with ER > 11 have -q hardest > 99990.

RW
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