How regular is to generate sudoku with difficulty 9+ SE?

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Postby coloin » Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:19 am

Thanks for your reply, the converse - ie why we didnt generate hard puzzles is surly going to help us.

I wasnt fully aware of all your points which do make sense.

With this knowledge we can hope to better the monster- although all along I kept thinking -" we will never better that" - until someone did !


Well done Tarek for setting a new Suexrat record......


Some information on the unavoidable side - this is where the answer is Im sure........


The "worst" clue in m_b_m's 11.4 puzzle is the the clue in the central box with 82 solutions - this has an associated unavoidable of size 48 clues

Code: Select all
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5   2 solutions

Code: Select all
48 sudokus found
5.4.....9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5..6....9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5...7...9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5......89.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.18..7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1.9.7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1..57...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...74..8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7.7.8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...84..3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8.2.3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8..53...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...36..4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3..14.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4973.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.732......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.6.....95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73..5....95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73...8...95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73....6..95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.....8.95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73......795.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.4.......6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95..3......6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95...2.....6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95....2....6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.....3...6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95......5..6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.......8.6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95........46.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........691...3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.17..3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1.4.3...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1..53...8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...32..8...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3..78...6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...89..6...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8..86...4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...61..4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6.5.4.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6..94.2.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...472.9...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.239...6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.97..6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9.2.6...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9..36...5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...68..5
5.......9.2.1...7...8...3...4.73.......95.........6.1...3...8...6...4.2.9...6..45



The worst clue in "Easter Monster" is also in box 5 it has a lowly 18 solutions

There would appear to be only 3 unavoidables [TBC] left in this grid ! Can this be true ?
They are 13 puzzles solved with 1 clue added [20+1]
Code: Select all
1..3....2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1...8...2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7..45.9.3.......7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.923.......7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.38......7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......74......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......7...5...8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......7.......85..4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 - Monster
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......7.......8..24.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......7.......8...4.7..5..6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......7.......8...4.7...4.6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......7.......8...4.7....86...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.3...1

So all the unavoidables that are left have this additional clue in them...

Hear are 3 non maximal pseudopuzzles..............which demonstrate the unavoidable sets
Code: Select all
1......62.9.4...5...6.9.7...5.9.3.......7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1  2 solutions   34 clues
17......2.9.4...5...61..7...519.3.......7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1  2 solutions   25 clues
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1  2 solutions   53 clues

Code: Select all
53 sudokus found
1.4.....2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1..3....2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1...8...2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1....5..2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.....9.2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1......62.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.46..5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4..15...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...58..6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5.5.6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5..86...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...61..7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6.9.7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...73..5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7.4.5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7..45.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...519.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.923.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.38....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.7...8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3..6..8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3...9.8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....867.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.74......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.3.....8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7..1....8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7...5...8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.....6.8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7......78...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......85..4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8.1.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8..24.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...497.....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.71....6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.9...6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7..5..6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7...4.6...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7....86...3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....62..3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6.3.3...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6..63...9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...35..9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3.2.9.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3..19.8...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...948...2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.87..2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8.8.2.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8..42.....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...27....1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.3...1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2..6..1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2...5.1
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.....8.7.......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2....91



A 53 clue unavoidable set ! now that doesnt get there by chance !

Perhaps all the clues in our hardest puzzle are similarly well endowed !

Where is Red Ed - he could do this in minutes !

C
coloin
 
Posts: 1662
Joined: 05 May 2005

Postby coloin » Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:31 am

here is my waiting list !

ER,XR,puzzle,label
114,1895,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......7.......85..4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,Easter Monster
101,1765,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.8.2......9.4.......53.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1765
106,1601,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.964......8.........35.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1601
114,1600,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5..84.......2.......3.5.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1600
113,1591,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......74......8...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,tarek -04/08/2
108,1569,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5..41.......3.......958.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1569
109,1537,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5..47......3........985.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1537
112,1535,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.8.........15......9.3.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1535
109,1519,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5..84......9.7......3.5.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1519
099,1518,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.4......8.7.......35.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1518
107,1514,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5..83......9.4......5.7.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1514
108,1507,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.2.4...............958.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1507
100,1491,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5..43......8........965.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1491
107,1486,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5..46.......3.......895.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1486
110,1474,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3......81.........5.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1474
106,1459,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.9.6......5.4.......38.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1459
101,1458,1.......7.9.4...5...6...2...5.84.......2.3......9.5.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1458
100,1443,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.3.4........8......592.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1443
100,1428,1.......7.9.4...5...6...2...5.8.4........3......952.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1428
113,1426,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.3.4......96.........8.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1426
108,1425,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.96.......8.3......5...4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1425
109,1419,1.......7.9.4...5...6...2...5.3.4.......25......89..4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1419
107,1416,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.84........2.......5.3.4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1,coloin-04/13-1416
114,1414,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.3.4.......6........58.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1414
000,1399,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5..42......3........985.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1399
000,1397,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.34........6.......8.5.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1397
000,1396,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.2.4.......8.......395.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1396
000,1390,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.........18......5.3.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1390
000,1389,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.943......8.........15.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1389
000,1382,1.......7.9.4...5...6...2...5.9.4......3........258.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1382
000,1376,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5...4......31.......9.8.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1376
000,1358,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.93.........4......528.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1358
000,1357,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.3.7.......4.......985.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1357
000,1355,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.9.4........3......857.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1355
000,1345,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.284......5........9.3.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1345
000,1343,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.894......5.........63.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1343
000,1331,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.3.8......6.4.......95.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1331
000,1328,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5..4........36......895.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1328
000,1323,1.......7.9.4...5...6...2...5.643......9........8.5.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1323
000,1320,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.943......8.........25.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1320
000,1314,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.913........4......85..4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1314
000,1313,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.8.4........3......597.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1313
000,1312,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.943......5.........82.4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1,coloin-04/13-1312
000,1299,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.943.......8........52.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1299
000,1299,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.914........5......83..4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1299
000,1293,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.3.4.......6.......85..4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1,coloin-04/13-1293
000,1284,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.8.4........3......957.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1284
000,1272,1.......7.9.4...5...6...2...5.3.4......1.8.......95.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1272
000,1269,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.394.......5........87.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1269
000,1267,1.......7.9.4...5...6...2...5.248......3........9.5.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1267
000,1265,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.947......8........5.3.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1265
000,1257,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.924......5.........38.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1257
000,1251,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.3.4......9........258.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1251
000,1248,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.3.4......56.......98..4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1248
000,1237,1.......7.9.4...5...6...2...5.3.8........4......592.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1237
000,1236,1.......7.9.4...5...6...2...5.9.3........4......582.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1236
000,1230,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.3.4.......65......28..4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1230
000,1221,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.2.4......8........953.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1221
000,1212,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5..86......91.......3...4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1212
000,1204,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5..93......8.4......7.5.4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1,coloin-04/13-1204
000,1201,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.9.4......7.5......83..4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1201
000,1200,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5..34........8......295.4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1,coloin-04/13-1200
000,1199,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.3.4........5......987.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1199
000,1198,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.4......81.......53..4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1198
000,1197,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.8.4......1.5......39..4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1197
000,1194,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.4......8........537.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1194
000,1186,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.943........5......86..4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1,coloin-04/13-1186
000,1184,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.84.......7.5......9.3.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1184
000,1181,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5...7......8.4......953.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1181
000,1168,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.2......86........35.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1168
000,1167,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5..94......7.5......8.3.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1167
000,1166,1.......7.9.4...5...6...2...5.79.......5.2.......38.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1166
000,1161,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.1.8.......64......35..4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1161
000,1157,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.3.4.......15......68..4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1157
000,1152,1.......7.9.4...5...6...2...5..94......7.8......3.5.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1152
000,1151,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.9.4......8........753.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1151
000,1146,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.3.8......15.......9.7.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1146
000,1142,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5..84......51.......96..4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1142
000,1131,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5..84......96.......1.3.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1131
000,1126,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.1.4......9........835.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1126
000,1124,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.234........8......9.5.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1124
000,1119,1.......7.9.4...5...6...2...5.943......5........2.8.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1119
000,1117,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.948......3.........15.4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1,coloin-04/13-1117
000,1116,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5..46......81.......9.3.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1116
000,1114,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.8.3......65.......9.2.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1114
000,1111,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.943........5......87..4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1,coloin-04/13-1111
000,1110,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9........345......8.7.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1110
000,1107,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5...2......8.4......593.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1107a
000,1107,1.......7.9.4...5...6...2...5.6.4.......13......58..4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1107b
000,1104,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5..4........32......985.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1104
000,1104,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.943......8.........75.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1104a
000,1104,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.9.........68......532.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1,coloin-04/13-1104b
000,1102,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.8.7......92........35.4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1,coloin-04/13-1102
000,1101,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.6.4......9........538.4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1,coloin-04/13-1101
000,1100,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.948........5......31..4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1,coloin-04/13-1100
000,1099,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.4........3......285.4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1,coloin-04/13-1099
000,1098,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.248......9........3.5.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1098
000,1097,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.23.........8......195.4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1,coloin-04/13-1097a
000,1097,1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.91........4.......385.4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1097b
000,1097,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.9.1.......63......5...4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1,coloin-04/13-1097c
107,1097,6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.9.3......56.......2...4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1,coloin-04/13-1097d ***


These are the 2 x 4 templates I used here.
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.......................4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1 - 676286 sol.
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.......................4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1 - 691248 sol.
6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.......................4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1 - 708196 sol.
6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.......................4...7...6...3...9.8.2.......1 - 682164 sol.

1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.......................4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 - 678104 sol. [ Easter monster & coloin-04/13-1601]
1.......7.9.4...5...6...2...5.......................4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 - 696188 sol.
6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.......................4.2.....6...3...9.8...7.....1 - 688096 sol.
6.......2.9.4...5...1...7...5.......................4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1 - 685046 sol.

Bearing in mind that both JPF's and Tarek's puzzzles are in there possiblty half of these puzzles are repeats !

I note some puzzles in Tareks list have a suexrat <1000 but still have gsfr over 99990
C
Last edited by coloin on Thu May 10, 2007 7:30 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Postby tarek » Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:21 am

The waiting list will grow & grow if left until ERs are out........ a shortlist with high impact candidates (as suggested by RW) is best....

I have been trying to rate my ULTRA0203 without success.....

It may be some problem with the computer as it crashed before... will post ERs when I have them

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Postby JPF » Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:22 am

I fear that all these"waiting lists" (including my recent one in reaction to tarek's) are going to create a full mess in this thread.

At the beginning, the purpose of this thread was to create puzzles with ER 9+.0

We should agree that only puzzles with given ER can be posted even if it takes years to get their rating before posting !
Calculating the ER is full part of the work.
It was what I did before giving JPF 04/07/01 and others.

So my suggestions :
1. check if there is no equivalent already posted.
2. give the ER and maybe other ratings (gsfr,suex,..)
3. probably limit the ER to 10.7 +

I'm ready to scratch my waiting list and to maintain a full list of posted puzzles if you agree on those points.
Comments are welcome.

There is still the connexion with ravel's thread which is not clear to me either.

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Postby tarek » Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:33 pm

JPF wrote:We should agree that only puzzles with given ER can be posted even if it takes years to get their rating before posting !

Why JPF:(:?:

I agree that relying on 1 factor only (especially suexrat9) for deciding difficulty is bound to have more easier puzzles.... but combining several of them (suexrat9 & gsfr) should be a good indicator...

Unfortunately it will take forever for me to get the ER for my ULTRA0203 because on another computer it failed to rate it using what mike mentioned regarding the stack overflow.....It seems that my computer doesn't have enough memory or power to cope

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Postby RW » Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:45 pm

tarek wrote:Unfortunately it will take forever for me to get the ER for my ULTRA0203 because on another computer it failed to rate it using what mike mentioned regarding the stack overflow.....

Did it give you the "out of memory" error message or did your computer just crash? I'm asking because I started SE with the 500M memory usage a while ago on the puzzle, if this isn't enough then I should interrupt immediately and start it over with more memory assigned.

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Postby tarek » Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:49 pm

No it finally worked.....

I don't know what precisely, but after the GUI looked as if all the past 2 hours were nothing... it came back to life.... it did work... that rating is 11.4...

this is the template used
Code: Select all
 1 . . | . . . | . . 9 
 . 2 . | . 6 . | . 7 . 
 . . 3 | . . . | 5 . . 
-------+-------+------
 . 8 . | . . . | . . . 
 . . . | . . . | . . . 
 . . . | . . . | . 4 . 
-------+-------+------
 . . 5 | . . . | 3 . . 
 . 6 . | . 7 . | . 2 . 
 9 . . | . . . | . . 1 

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Postby ronk » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:37 pm

Has anyone appealed to Nicolas Juillerat for a Sudoku Explainer that doesn't rely on the Java Runtime Environment?

I think the speedup would be significant.
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Postby AW » Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:26 pm

My program is very limited in its functionality. And it has severe limitations that are inherent in the approach. For instance, tarek's ULTRA0203 only scores one sword, but clearly the puzzle must have some special properties to warrant high ratings from other systems.

Presumably, this is because the grid requires a large number of nets to solve, but these nets are all "immediate" and Solver finds them on the first sword pass. The program doesn't do any kind of "shortest solution" analysis, so it doesn't distinguish between a puzzle that solves with just one "immediate" sword and a puzzle that needs 50 "immediate" swords. Also, there's no way to tell whether a given puzzle could have been solved by just finding one jelly, rather than going to all the trouble of exhausting the swords first.

The ratings from ravel tend to agree with Solver, but seem to be better at checking for shortest paths.

I've run a few of the top puzzles in the last lists, and the following one from JPF is the only one to score a jelly :

100000002030400050006000700050804000000073000000900080700000600040008090002000001 JPF 04/14/01

(6 swords and 1 jelly at the final count)

Solver's current worst case scenario, the "Easter Monster", takes about four minutes to crunch (results will vary according to hardware, obviously). It may seem less time consuming than getting an ER, and the memory requirements are considerably lower, but then the main reason for this is that the program doesn't do much in the way of analysis. Giving it a brain would probably make it much slower. I have no plans to optimize (which would certainly help), or enhance, in the near future. Given my current work load, I think the only thing that would motivate me enough to look at it again would be a puzzle that it can't solve:D

Anyone else is welcome to work something out using the approach. Solver doesn't do anything original : it's just tabling with some pair checking thrown in at the end.
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Postby JPF » Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:59 pm

Here is a new SE=11.4

JPF 04/14/B4 :
Code: Select all
 1 . . | . . . | . . 2
 . . 3 | 4 . . | . 5 .
 . 6 . | . . . | 7 . .
-------+-------+-------
 . . . | 8 5 . | . 9 .
 . . . | 3 . 6 | . . .
 . . 8 | . 9 . | . . .
-------+-------+-------
 . 2 . | . . . | 1 . .
 7 . . | . . . | . . 6
 . . 9 | . 8 . | . 3 .


gsfr=99992 ; suexrat9=1545

For some reasons (?) it took 5 hours on my computer...

Difficulty rating: 11,4

This Sudoku can be solved using the following logical methods:
57 x Hidden Single
1 x Naked Single
2 x Direct Hidden Triplet
7 x Pointing
3 x Claiming
2 x Naked Pair
2 x X-Wing
3 x Hidden Pair
1 x Swordfish
1 x Hidden Triplet
1 x XY-Wing
3 x Bidirectional Y-Cycle
1 x Turbot Fish
2 x Bidirectional Cycle
5 x Forcing Chain
7 x Region Forcing Chains
1 x Cell Forcing Chains
8 x Dynamic Region Forcing Chains
3 x Dynamic Cell Forcing Chains
1 x Dynamic Double Forcing Chains
9 x Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains
11 x Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+)
1 x Dynamic Cell Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
13 x Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
5 x Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Multiple Forcing Chains)
3 x Dynamic Cell Forcing Chains (+ Dynamic Forcing Chains)
2 x Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Dynamic Forcing Chains)
2 x Dynamic Region Forcing Chains (+ Dynamic Forcing Chains)

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Postby gsf » Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:18 am

well ok
I've held it in long enough
the pathetic performance of SE rating (10h to rate one puzzle on a 2Ghz pentium in the 21st century == pathetic)
is slowing down progress on this forum
worse, the mutitude of "forcing chain" variants reported for the >11.0 puzzles is incomprehensible
does anyone besides the SE author even know how reproduce its results or even explain what the explainer is doing?

along with producing the hardest puzzles (at a rate much faster than I had expected)
I think this thread should produce a rating scheme that more accurately represents
the taxonomy of puzzle flowing from it -- with well defined and reproducable algorithms
that perfom @ minutes per hard puzzle rather than hours

at this point I suspect everyone is buring idle cycles to get 11.4 ratings @ ~5h/puzzle for the best puzzles here
there's more to these puzzles than one pigeonhole named "11.4"

those cycles might be better spent differentiating all the 11.4 puzzles

I've reworked the nested proposition constraints in my solver and recalibrated the
ratings >90000 to leave space for the great results from this thread
(I had intended 99999 to be unreachable -- its great when progress keeps software honest)
with the recalibration and the -qh (short for -qhardest) option the hardest puzzles seem to be >=99000
Easter Monster rates tops with 99429 in 3m46s @ 2Ghz

I'll write up the ideas behind the nested propositions and recalibration and post later this weekend
the main idea is to look at all of the solution paths (with some constraints
to hold back combinatorial explosion) rather than just the hardest solution path

it won't have all the answers but should provide fodder for discussion
rather than fodder for grousing about how slow SE is

does it warrant a new thread?
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Postby RW » Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:38 am

gsf, your new recalibration sounds great. While your looking over your nested propositions, perhaps you could tell me what's up with this puzzle:
Code: Select all
1.......9.2..6..7...3...5...8..94......6.3......21..4...9...1...6..7..8.5.......3

'-q hardest' was working on it about 7 hours last night without producing a rating. Otherwise it's nothing special (SE 10.5, suexrat9 900).

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Postby gsf » Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:28 am

RW wrote:gsf, your new recalibration sounds great. While your looking over your nested propositions, perhaps you could tell me what's up with this puzzle:
Code: Select all
1.......9.2..6..7...3...5...8..94......6.3......21..4...9...1...6..7..8.5.......3

'-q hardest' was working on it about 7 hours last night without producing a rating. Otherwise it's nothing special (SE 10.5, suexrat9 900).

ouch, 7 hours, one of the reasons the old -q hardest (now named -q hardest-obsolete) has become unworkable
this puzzle, and another one of yours I think, has a bunch of X and Y cycles that occur
throughout the propositions but don't advance the solution
X and Y cycles are the least efficient constraints in my solver and the 7 hours proves it

(edit: I just ran it with the latest solver and it took ~15 min @ 2Ghz, and now I know why
one of the changes with the new proposition logic is to partition propositions into n-value/location groups
(e.g., 2-value/location == bivalue/bilocation) the older solver just partitioned by n-value
so adding n-location was apparently a big win waiting to be uncovered by your puzzle
anyway, 15min is still too long for -q hardest-obsolete)

the new -qhardest rating is 98787 (1sec to determine) which puts it in with ~10.5 SE like you noted

I also added an exrate(N) expression function that approximates suexrat[9]
its approximate because suexrat[9] uses DLX and my backtrack solver is a simple but
fast constraint propagation search that works well for small N (like N=81=9x9)
suexrat[9] averages DLX node counts over 100 randomized searches
DLX on average requires 9x the number of nodes that the simple backtracker does
so the approximation is to multiply the number of simple nodes by 9
its reasonably close, especially given that multiple suexrat[9] runs can stray
use as
Code: Select all
-e 'exrate() >= 1000'
and/or
Code: Select all
-f''%(exrate())x'


the rating based on nested propositions still isn't immune to puzzle permutations
I'll hold off describing it until I understand why that's so after all the efforts to avoid it
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Postby ravel » Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:30 am

JPF wrote:There is still the connexion with ravel's thread which is not clear to me either.
The thread is frozen. I added a link to your ER top list at the top page. Since only these "old" 11+ puzzles are not in your list, you might want to add them:
Code: Select all
11.2:
Ocean's New Year's present for RW
000001020300040500000600007002000001080090030400000800500002000090030400006700000
11.1:
dml 1/07
003000009400000020080600100200004000090800007005030000000900800000005030070010006
11.0:
Mauricio's non minimal puzzle (62 non isomorphic minimals):
600002059520040010003500200300194500010658030005273001004005100030020045750400008


After this inflation of gsfr 99990+ puzzles i think, we should hold a list with all known minimal (gsf) canocicalized puzzles. It seems, that it could grow like Gordon's 17 clue list. But it should be possible for everybody to add her puzzles. So maybe it could be done on Sukopedia ?

I will run my program with the new waiting lists tomorrow (probably over night).

I see the very need for a public rating program, which can be used as another filter for the 99990+ (or now 99000+) puzzles, before the ER is calculated then, but i will not write it:) . It seems, that AW's approach is the most promising in the moment for that. Because rating is a very subjective thing, we should not rely only on gsf's results. The success of the hardest thread was based on 3 different ratings, which only filter out puzzles for very different, but arguable reasons.
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Postby RW » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:03 pm

I wrote:If the 16 clue base is chosen wisely, then it can be made so that the base in itself doesn't contain more than one bilocation unit for each digit. JPF's easter monster came from a perfect base in this sence:

Just noticed that JPF's base wasn't perfect at all, it is even possible to create 16 clue bases without a single strong link. Unfortunately I haven't found a base like this with less than 50 million solutions yet. I did a little tweaking on tarek's 16 clue base and got this:
Code: Select all
 *-----------*
 |1..|...|..9|
 |.2.|.6.|.7.|
 |..3|...|5..|
 |---+---+---|
 |.8.|...|...|
 |...|...|...|
 |...|...|.4.|
 |---+---+---|
 |..9|...|1..|
 |.6.|.7.|.8.|
 |5..|...|..3|
 *-----------*

537564 solutions, only three strong links. To my surprise there was no really hard puzzles in it. Only one that got my hopes up:
Code: Select all
1.......9.2..6..7...3...5...8.42.......61.......8.7.4...9...1...6..7..8.5.......3

gsfr 99995, suexrat9 1918, no bivalue cells and only 8 strong links in the starting grid. Too bad ER is only 10.9...

RW
RW
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