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Postby ronk » Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:17 pm

ravel wrote:Ron, there is no 7 in r8c2.

ravel, thanks. Using the correct single-digit grid this time ...
Code: Select all
 .  .  7 |  .  7  7 |  .  .  .
 .  .  . |  .  .  . |  . *7 *7
 7  .  7 |  7  .  . |  .  .  .
---------+----------+----------
 7  .  7 |  7  .  . |  .  . *7
 7 *7  . |  . -7  . | *7  . *7
 7  .  . |  .  .  7 |  .  . *7
---------+----------+----------
 7  .  . |  .  7  7 |  7  .  .
*7  .  . |  . #7  . |  . *7  .
 7 *7  7 |  .  .  7 |  7  .  .

 finned mutant jellyfish r28c2b6\r5c89b7 plus fin r8c5, implies r5c5<>7

Except for fin r8c5, the candidates in r2, r8, c2 and b6 are "covered" by r5, c8, c9 and b7. Whether the unfinned fish or the fin is ultimately true, r5c5<>7.

daj95376, my apologies. I'm finding that matching pencilmarks (in Simple Sudoku) to a post is becoming more and more troublesome for me.:(
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Postby daj95376 » Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:19 pm

ronk wrote:daj95376, my apologies. I'm finding that matching pencilmarks (in Simple Sudoku) to a post is becoming more and more troublesome for me.:(

Hello Ron,

You never need to apologize to me. We've been in contact too long for me to ever fault you. In fact, your patience with my stumbling around with fish patterns has been impressive. Thanks!

As to matching the 7-pattern, that's why I normally try to include the PM so there's less chance of a mis-communication. A PM is really easy to load directly into Simple Sudoku (and other solvers I believe).

Anyway, your 7-pattern brings to light an important part of my solution -- the XYZ-Wing elimination. Without it, there's no Template elimination.
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Postby wapati » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:09 am

SQ finds this pretty tough. SE rates it harder, as I read the relative ratings. They agree on a swordfish. SE sees fins as chains, generally.


Code: Select all
6 . .|. 2 .|. . 8
. . .|6 . 1|. . .
2 . 1|. . .|6 . 4
-----+-----+-----
. 9 .|. . .|. 8 .
1 . .|7 . 8|. . 6
. . .|1 . 9|. . .
-----+-----+-----
3 . .|5 . 7|. . 2
9 . 6|. 8 .|5 . 1
. 5 .|. . .|. 4 .
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Postby wapati » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:24 am

Quite hard.

Code: Select all
2 . . | . . . | . . 9
. . 1 | 7 . 3 | 2 . .
. 8 . | . . . | . 1 .
---------------------
. . 8 | . . . | 6 . .
. 5 . | . . . | . 4 .
. 4 . | 3 . 5 | . 7 .
---------------------
. 7 . | 1 . 4 | . 9 .
. . 3 | 2 . 9 | 4 . .
. . 9 | . 5 . | 3 . .
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Postby wapati » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:27 am

Code: Select all
. . 6|. . .|7 . .
8 . 4|6 . 1|2 . 3
. . .|. . .|. . .
-----+-----+-----
. . .|4 . 2|. . .
. 2 .|5 . 9|. 1 .
5 . .|. 1 .|. . 8
-----+-----+-----
. 5 3|. 9 .|1 4 .
1 . .|. 4 .|. . 2
. 4 .|. . .|. 3 .
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Postby Carcul » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:04 pm

Wapati wrote:Too many givens, perhaps. Hard to solve though!


(Page 29)

Code: Select all
 *------------------------------------------------------*
 | 6     89    4   | 129   3     12  | 5     7     18   |
 | 389   5     1   | 7     69    4   | 368   389   2    |
 | 7     39    2   | 8     5     16  | 4     39    16   |
 |-----------------+-----------------+------------------|
 | 389   1     7   | 5     269   236 | 3689  4     3689 |
 | 2     3489  389 | 149   169   136 | 3689  5     7    |
 | 3459  6     359 | 49    7     8   | 2     1     39   |
 |-----------------+-----------------+------------------|
 | 348   3478  6   | 12    12    9   | 378   38    5    |
 | 1     378   38  | 6     4     5   | 3789  2     389  |
 | 59    2     59  | 3     8     7   | 1     6     4    |
 *------------------------------------------------------*

[r7c1]-4-[r6c13](-3-[r4c1|r5c3])=4=[r6c4]=9=[r6c9]-9-[r8c9]-{TILA:
[r4c1]-8-[r4c7]=8=[r1c9]-8-[r1c2]=8=[r2c1]-8-[r4c1]; [r4c1]=8=[r2c1]-
-8-[r1c2]=8=[r1c9]-8-[r8c9]=8=[r8c3]-8-[r5c3]-9-[r4c1]}, => r7c1<>4 solving the puzzle.

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Postby Carcul » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:16 pm

Wapati wrote:2 less givens, a bit easier. (Not easy, tho)


(Page 29)

Code: Select all
 *----------------------------------------------------*
 | 578   9     4  | 3     6     78  | 1     578   2   |
 | 1     2578  28 | 49    49    578 | 78    6     3   |
 | 3     78    6  | 58    1     2   | 9     578   4   |
 |----------------+-----------------+-----------------|
 | 6     1     23 | 7     8     4   | 5     23    9   |
 | 478   2478  9  | 1     5     3   | 6     24    78  |
 | 478   3478  5  | 6     2     9   | 78    34    1   |
 |----------------+-----------------+-----------------|
 | 9     45    1  | 2     47    58  | 3     78    6   |
 | 45    6     38 | 458   347   1   | 2     9     578 |
 | 2     38    7  | 589   39    6   | 4     1     58  |
 *----------------------------------------------------*

[r3c4]-5-[r2c6](-8-[r2c3]-2-[r4c3]-3-[r6c2])=5=[r7c6]-5-[r7c2]-4-[r6c2]
=4|5=[r3c8]-5-[r3c4], => r3c4<>5 and the puzzle is solved.

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Postby Carcul » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:30 pm

Wapati wrote:There are a few Sashimi Swords to deal with.


(Page 29)

Code: Select all
 *--------------------------------------------------------------*
 | 1      2      68    | 678    4      3   | 5      9      678  |
 | 7      4      368   | 9      68     5   | 12     368    12   |
 | 358    356    9     | 1      678    2   | 4      3678   3678 |
 |---------------------+-------------------+--------------------|
 | 24     8      2457  | 567    3      67  | 9      1      267  |
 | 6      37     237   | 4      1      9   | 278    378    5    |
 | 35     9      1     | 5678   2      678 | 67     4      367  |
 |---------------------+-------------------+--------------------|
 | 9      167    678   | 2      5      4   | 3      678    1678 |
 | 24     67     24    | 3      678    1   | 678    5      9    |
 | 358    13567  35678 | 678    9      678 | 1678   2      4    |
 *--------------------------------------------------------------*

[r6c4]-5-[r4c4]=5|8=[r9c46]-8-[r8c5]=8=[r8c7]-8-[r5c7]=8=[r5c8]=3=
=[r6c9]-3-[r6c1]-5-[r6c4], => r6c4<>5 solving the puzzle.

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Postby Carcul » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:10 pm

Wapati wrote:Finned-x, finned sword and xyz patterns.


(Page 29)

Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 2      7      6   | 1458   48     9  | 158    358    1348 |
 | 1      8      3   | 45     2      67 | 5679   567    469  |
 | 5      4      9   | 18     67     3  | 2      678    168  |
 |-------------------+------------------+--------------------|
 | 3678   36     78  | 89     1      4  | 56789  5678   2    |
 | 678    5      1   | 3      789    2  | 6789   4      689  |
 | 9      2      4   | 6      5      78 | 178    378    138  |
 |-------------------+------------------+--------------------|
 | 347    39     27  | 249    49     68 | 68     1      5    |
 | 68     16     258 | 28     3      15 | 4      9      7    |
 | 48     19     58  | 7      4689   15 | 3      2      68   |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*

-4-[r7c4]=4=[r12c4]-4-[r1c5](-8-[r5c5])-8-[r3c4]-1-[r3c9]=1|9=[r5c9]-9-
-[(r5c5)]-7-[r6c6](-8-[r6c789])-8-[r7c6]-6-[r7c7]-8-[r45c7]=8=[r4c8]

but this cannot be, because of the XY-Wing [r4c4]-9-[r7c4]-2-[r7c3]-7-
-[r4c3]-8-[r4c4]. So, r7c4 must be "4" and the puzzle is solved.

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Postby wapati » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:33 am

(page 30) . .:D

This is probably only one finned pattern needed, which one though?
Busy enough!

Code: Select all
. 4 .|1 . .|8 . .
1 . 8|. . 3|. . .
. 5 2|. 8 .|. . 7
-----+-----+-----
6 . .|. 4 .|. 7 .
. . 1|7 . 6|9 . .
. 7 .|. 9 .|. . 3
-----+-----+-----
8 . .|. 6 .|1 9 .
. . .|4 . .|7 . 8
. . 7|. . 8|. 2 .
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Postby wapati » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:12 am

This needs "no fins".:)

It has many twists but is SE friendly. (Can be solved with "no chains".)

BTW, I am trying vertical symmetry (I prefer double-D) to see if generation is faster or different. From Ocean's "band" I assume that diagonal produces more swords. Perhaps we will see:?:


Code: Select all
. 9 8 | . . . | 2 3 .
3 . . | . . . | . . 7
. . . | 9 . 4 | . . .
---------------------
9 . . | 5 7 6 | . . 8
. . . | . . . | . . .
5 8 . | . . . | . 7 2
---------------------
. 6 . | . 2 . | . 5 .
. 4 . | 8 . 3 | . 2 .
8 . . | . 9 . | . . 6
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Postby wapati » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:31 am

Pretty tough puzzle, pattern wise.

Code: Select all
. . 7 | . 4 . | 5 . .
. . . | 3 . 8 | . . .
. 2 . | 6 7 5 | . 4 .
---------------------
. 6 4 | . . . | 9 8 .
. . . | 4 . 3 | . . .
. . 2 | . . . | 4 . .
---------------------
. 4 8 | 7 . 6 | 3 9 .
. 9 . | . . . | . 2 .
. . 6 | . 3 . | 7 . .
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Postby wapati » Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:14 am

It is funny, to me, that vertical reflection makes images that I see as birds or bats or insects.

If you see other things, that is way cool.:D

BTW, this one looks like a fruit, dunno what kind?

Code: Select all
. . 8 | . . . | 5 . .
. 3 . | 8 . 5 | . 6 .
4 . . | . 9 . | . . 7
---------------------
9 . . | 6 . 1 | . . 8
8 7 . | . . . | . 5 1
6 . . | . . . | . . 9
---------------------
. . . | 5 . 2 | . . .
. 1 . | . 4 . | . 8 .
. . 4 | 3 . 8 | 1 . .
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Postby StrmCkr » Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:52 am

a red delicous apple :P

i solve it kinda wierd using my method of yielding chains.(redefinded and outlined here http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/viewtopic.php?t=5091

Code: Select all
 after applying ss.
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 27    269   8     | 1247  2367  346   | 5     1239  23    |
 | 1     3     79    | 8     27    5     | 249   6     24    |
 | 4     26    5     | 12    9     36    | 8     123   7     |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 9     4     23    | 6     5     1     | 237   27    8     |
 | 8     7     23    | 49   23    49    | 6     5     1     |
 | 6     5     1     | 27    8     37    | 234   234   9     |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 3-7    8     679#   | 5     1     2     | 3479#  34-7   46#    |
 | 235   1     67    | 79    4     679   | 23    8     235   |
 | 257   29    4     | 3     67    8     | 1     279   256   |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*


a yielding chain type 2:

conjugated als = 69+n (where n =7)(n is determined to be held in 2 of the three cells as noted in my rules)

the conjugated als is found in:
R7c3 (697)
R7c7(97)
R7c9(6)

following my outlined rules the conjugated als restricts n from all other cells. which means:

r7c1 cannot = 7
R7C8 canot = 7


leading to a solution of all singles using SS
Some do, some teach, the rest look it up.
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Postby ronk » Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:02 pm

StrmCkr wrote:
Code: Select all
                     |                   |
 3-7    8     679#   | 5     1     2     | 3479#  34-7   46#   
                     |                   |


a yielding chain type 2:

conjugated als = 69+n (where n =7)(n is determined to be held in 2 of the three cells as noted in my rules)

the conjugated als is found in:
R7c3 (697)
R7c7(97)
R7c9(6)

following my outlined rules the conjugated als restricts n from all other cells. which means:

r7c1 cannot = 7
R7C8 canot = 7

Based on just the three cells of your "conjugated ALS", there are thirteen possible outcomes for those three cells. Five of those outcomes do not include digit 7. Therefore, the elimination of digit 7 elsewhere is invalid.
Code: Select all
r7c3   r7c7   r7c9
---------------------
 679   3479     46
---------------------
*  6      3      4
   6      7      4
*  6      9      4
   7      3      4
   7      3      6
   7      4      6
   7      9      4
   7      9      6
*  9      3      4
*  9      3      6
*  9      4      6
   9      7      4
   9      7      6

* outcomes that do not include the digit 7

StrmCkr, what are you smoking?:)
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