44 posts
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i was doing a sudoku from a book at lunch. a friend of mine says "the book lied it does require math skills". i told him no. he does not belive me. what should i tell him to set him right

Last edited by Chessmaster on Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

- Chessmaster
**Posts:**191**Joined:**21 December 2005

Ask him what he's talking about.

Perhaps he thinks that logic is a mathematical term or perhaps he has no idea how to complete the puzzle but thinks he does and that's where the confusion lies or he may just be winding you up (or he could be jealous because he can't figure out how to do the puzzle at all and can't bear to see anybody else doing one, especially if it's an advanced one).

Luna

Perhaps he thinks that logic is a mathematical term or perhaps he has no idea how to complete the puzzle but thinks he does and that's where the confusion lies or he may just be winding you up (or he could be jealous because he can't figure out how to do the puzzle at all and can't bear to see anybody else doing one, especially if it's an advanced one).

Luna

- lunababy_moonchild
**Posts:**659**Joined:**23 March 2005

he says that the logic/problem solving is a math skill. however logic can be used in everyday life out side math.

- Chessmaster
**Posts:**191**Joined:**21 December 2005

Chessmaster wrote:he says that the logic/problem solving is a math skill. however logic can be used in everyday life out side math.

Logic is deductive reasoning. Sherlock Holmes used it to detect and Spock used it in everything he did. Then again they are fictional characters.

I'd leave your unilluminated friend to himself and carry on solving without making a fuss about it. I suspect he's either just trying to wind you up or he's jealous because he thinks that he can't do it. Pesonally I'd prefer to use my lunch hour to solve puzzles than argue about whether logic is a mathematical term or not.

Luna

- lunababy_moonchild
**Posts:**659**Joined:**23 March 2005

Logic involves the systematic study of the patterns of argument, and in particular of those patterns of argument that are valid, i.e. such that if the premisses are true then of necessity the conclusion is true.

...Since the 19th century the formulation of such rules (rules originally formulated by Aristotle 384-322bc) has drawn on the concepts and techniques of mathematics.

OERefD.

So, although logic uses the concepts and techniques of mathematics it does not use mathematics per se.

Chessmaster you can present your friend with a Sudoku grid with givens consisting of symbols or colours and ask him what are the mathematics needed to solve it.

MCC

...Since the 19th century the formulation of such rules (rules originally formulated by Aristotle 384-322bc) has drawn on the concepts and techniques of mathematics.

OERefD.

So, although logic uses the concepts and techniques of mathematics it does not use mathematics per se.

Chessmaster you can present your friend with a Sudoku grid with givens consisting of symbols or colours and ask him what are the mathematics needed to solve it.

MCC

- MCC
**Posts:**1275**Joined:**08 June 2005

MCC wrote:OERefD.

What is that?

MCC wrote:Chessmaster you can present your friend with a Sudoku grid with givens consisting of symbols or colours and ask him what are the mathematics needed to solve it.

MCC

Letters might be a better idea, in case the man can't draw or is colour challenged. We assume, since he's working, that he can read. Good idea though.

Or you could just ignore him and concentrate on your own solving (is that selfish or just addicted?)

Luna

- lunababy_moonchild
**Posts:**659**Joined:**23 March 2005

MCC wrote:

Chessmaster you can present your friend with a Sudoku grid with givens consisting of symbols or colours and ask him what are the mathematics needed to solve it.

MCC

i told him he could use letters. he says that it is still logic and that logic is a skill needed for math, and that if you use logic in any form it is the same as the logic needed for math. aslo my friend does not understand why i like to solve sudoku puzzles. so it would be hard to show him that it is not math related.

- Chessmaster
**Posts:**191**Joined:**21 December 2005

Chessmaster wrote:i told him he could use letters. he says that it is still logic and that logic is a skill needed for math, and that if you use logic in any form it is the same as the logic needed for math

If A is needed for B, that does not mean that A = B. We eat to live, but eating is not the same thing as living (at least for most of us). Try this one on him.

- jf27
**Posts:**34**Joined:**18 September 2005

lunababy_moonchild wrote:MCC wrote:OERefD.

What is that?

Luna

Sorry I was being a bit lazy there, I should have at least included full stops.

O.E.Ref.D.

Oxford English Reference Dictionary

Chessmaster wrote:i told him he could use letters. he says that it is still logic and that logic is a skill needed for math,...

In a sense you've already got him in that he says "logic is a skill needed for math" not that math is a skill needed for logic.

Chessmaster wrote:... and that if you use logic in any form it is the same as the logic needed for math.

How about the logical structure of the English language? Do you need to use math to construct a sentence or paragraph?

Chessmaster wrote:aslo my friend does not understand why i like to solve sudoku puzzles. so it would be hard to show him that it is not math related.

Some people find it hard to understand why people do crosswords or read books. I don't think this is something you can teach them.

Chessmaster if your friend is still being belligerent you could try this:

Draw a single cell coordinates r1c1 and a number N and tell him to place the number N according to the rules of Sudoku.

Ask your friend did he use math to place the number.

Draw a 2x2 grid consisting of four cells and two numbers N and N+1

And again ask him to place the numbers according to the rules of Sudoku.

Again ask him if he used math to place the numbers.

You could extend this to 3x3, 4x4, 5x5 grids.

Bring him back to the 3x3 grid and ask him to place the numbers 1-9 accordingly.

Extend this to two 3x3 grids, then four 3x3 grids.

Ask him each time if he is using math to place numbers.

Hopefully you'll be able to convince your friend that he is not using math in solving Sudoku.

MCC

- MCC
**Posts:**1275**Joined:**08 June 2005

MCC wrote:lunababy_moonchild wrote:MCC wrote:OERefD.

What is that?

Luna

Sorry I was being a bit lazy there, I should have at least included full stops.

O.E.Ref.D.

Oxford English Reference Dictionary

MCC

Ta much

Luna

- lunababy_moonchild
**Posts:**659**Joined:**23 March 2005

I suppose counting from 1 to 9 would be classed as a maths skill so your "smart kid" could be right in that respect But you certainly don't need to add, subtract, multiply, divide ... unless you're doing a "Killer Sudoku" when addition and subtraction skills are certainly necessary

- CathyW
**Posts:**316**Joined:**20 June 2005

he says the logic needed is a math skill; as someone said above, though, "logic is requred for math, Math is not required for logic".

- Chessmaster
**Posts:**191**Joined:**21 December 2005

44 posts
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