The New Sudoku Players' Forum

[jf27]

Didn't Bertrand Russell try to reduce maths to logic and finally say it couldn't be done?

[Chessmaster]

my friend is stubbern he does not belive me. another person told him he sounded dumb because he can not admit he is wrong. if i give him a sudoku he will try to do bad because he wants to be right. my friend is one of thoose people who disagrees just to disagree. could some one post an easy puzzle that requires nothing special and gives many clues.

[lunababy_moonchild]

I really, honestly cannot imagine why it is you are wasting you're time with this.

Leave him alone and let him believe that he's right.

Luna

[Cec]

"..Leave him alone and let him believe that he's right..."

After again looking at this thread this seems a very good suggestion.

Cec

[ab]

logic is a branch of mathematics, your friend is not wrong.

[Chessmaster]

a square is a special type of rectangle. a rectangle is not always a square. the same is for logic and math. math can require logic, but not all logic needs to require math. so math and logic are not completely related.

[ab]

so give me an example of some logic that is not covered by maths!

[MCC]

This sentence is wrong.

[ab]

and the logic is??

[robert@fm]

This sentence is wrong.

Er, that's just a meaningless sentence, since it doesn't refer to any external fact.  (Even a sentence such as "This sentence has six words" -- which of course is wrong, it actually has five -- draws on at least two external facts, the meanings of "six" and "words".)

[MCC]

Ab wanted an example of logic without using math, I spent about 3/4 hour composing a reply when my ISP terminated my link asking if I wanted to reconnect, of course, once I reconnected to this site I had to log in with the loss of everything I'd written, and I do not feel like writing everything again.
Maybe tomorrow if I feel like doing so.

MCC

[Heuresement]

Although decidely off-subject, this discussion has now become interesting. IMHO, Ab's statement:

logic is a branch of mathematics, your friend is not wrong.

is an incorrect statement, if we accept the common definitions of logic.

In common terms, logic, is a part of philosophy dedicated to the study of reasoning and inference. There is a part of mathematics called "Mathematical Logic", but that is only a subset of Logic.

Philosophers will quibble the exact meanings. To avoid any of this, consider the relationship of mathematics and logic. As a case in point, let us pretend that I am a primitive human from yesteryear, or possibly a pre-human, or even an animal, and let us presume that I know nothing about maths. However, from simple experience, I know that if I wait below certain trees, snakes are likely to descend and bite me, so therefore I must not hang around under those trees, and I will avoid doing so. In common terms, where is the mathematics in the fact that I have deduced that it is not a good idea to wait around under these trees? As there is none, I have to deduce that the original statement is incorrect. I am sure that everyone can think of countless better examples.

Michael

[ab]

Your snake example sound like applied stats to me.

As for 'this sentence is wrong', this is a type of self referential statement that caused mathematicians some headaches. The sentence can be neither true or false. Goedel used this idea to show that any suitably complex algebra is incomplete, in that there are statements that can be expressed in that algebra that cannot be proved or disproved.

[Heuresement]

Hi Ab! If the snake example is "applied stats", then in your own world, I deduce that you have defined logic as being a part of mathematics. If that is the case, there is no point in further discussion as I will be unable to prove that you to be incorrect in your own world. However, I think that you may find that the definitions that you using are limiting your own thinking and reasoning.

To take this any further you need to define what you mean by logic. Do you disagree with my definition in my previous post?

btw You are not a mathematician by any chance?

[lunababy_moonchild]

The American Heritage ® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition says:

logic
n.
1. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.

2. a. A system of reasoning: Aristotle's logic. b. A mode of reasoning: By that logic, we should sell the company tomorrow. c. The formal, guiding principles of a discipline, school, or science.

3. Valid reasoning: Your paper lacks the logic to prove your thesis.

4. The relationship between elements and between an element and the whole in a set of objects, individuals, principles, or events: There's a certain logic to the motion of rush-hour traffic.

5. Computer Science a. The nonarithmetic operations performed by a computer, such as sorting, comparing, and matching, that involve yes-no decisions. b. Computer circuitry. c. Graphic representation of computer circuitry.

Does that help?

Luna