## Untouchables and Chameleons

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

### Re: Puzzle with a six-mutable cell.

you can use my solver to filter the max mutable cell
Code: Select all
`-e 'mutable(sig) >= 6'`

and then list the # solutions for each mutable cell (mutable(sig) "signature")
and a pencilmark grid with all of the mutable cell candidate values ( %(mutable(sig))h "hints")
Code: Select all
`-f'%(mutable(sig))x %(mutable())h'`

here's the mutable signature for ocean's 6 above
Code: Select all
`6 26 2 2 26 3 3 2 2 26 2 2 26 2 2 2 26 3 2 2 2 2 2 2`

i.e., first puzzle has two mutable cells, the first with 6 solutions, the second with 2

the solver also has functions for required() and superfluous() cells
gsf
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Joined: 21 September 2005
Location: NJ USA

### Twin

In the gordon file you have a clue disposition which accept 2 000 digits differents disposiitions!

I don't compute the candidats but if I have time I will give you this disposition
to study it.
Papy
Papy

Posts: 131
Joined: 15 August 2006

Papy....we await !

Meanwhile ive found a 9-mutable set of puzzles.......or have I ?

Heres one puzzle which possibly works.....the potentially mutable clue at r9c9 :
Code: Select all
`+---+---+---+|7..|9..|4..||.6.|.5.|.7.||..9|..6|...|+---+---+---+|1..|4..|7..||.5.|.2.|.1.||..6|..3|...|+---+---+---+|3..|7..|...||.8.|.1.|...||...|...|..3|+---+---+---+`

Heres the rest

Code: Select all
`7..9..4...6..5..7...9..6...1..4..7...5..2..1...6..3...3..7......8..1............1      123 sol.7..9..4...6..5..7...9..6...1..4..7...5..2..1...6..3...3..7......8..1............2       47 sol.7..9..4...6..5..7...9..6...1..4..7...5..2..1...6..3...3..7......8..1............3        1 sol.7..9..4...6..5..7...9..6...1..4..7...5..2..1...6..3...3..7......8..1............4       72 sol.7..9..4...6..5..7...9..6...1..4..7...5..2..1...6..3...3..7......8..1............5       33 sol.7..9..4...6..5..7...9..6...1..4..7...5..2..1...6..3...3..7......8..1............6        0 sol.7..9..4...6..5..7...9..6...1..4..7...5..2..1...6..3...3..7......8..1............7      278 sol.7..9..4...6..5..7...9..6...1..4..7...5..2..1...6..3...3..7......8..1............8      123 sol.7..9..4...6..5..7...9..6...1..4..7...5..2..1...6..3...3..7......8..1............9       29 sol.`

Unfortunately they have many solutions !!!

Sorry but I just know you can do better !

C
Last edited by coloin on Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
coloin

Posts: 1733
Joined: 05 May 2005

### Twins...

Ther e is an easy way to find this kind of grids

You take e file of grid an with an editor (Nottepad,Teachtext,...) you change all tyhe dogotd in one specific value

I/E 1..2....5...........1..9
After X..X....X...........X..X

You sort the result and the file will contains 10 lihnes 1 105 lines 2 1 Line 3....

I put the last tuch to my collection and Coloin will receice the magic link !!!

Papy
Papy

Posts: 131
Joined: 15 August 2006

### Re: Puzzle with a six-mutable cell.

gsf wrote:you can use my solver to filter the max mutable cell
Code: Select all
`-e 'mutable(sig) >= 6'`

and then list the # solutions for each mutable cell (mutable(sig) "signature")
and a pencilmark grid with all of the mutable cell candidate values ( %(mutable(sig))h "hints")
Code: Select all
`-f'%(mutable(sig))x %(mutable())h'`

Nice feature. Incredible how much functionality you can put into your program.

In my test-set several puzzles with a 4-mutable cell were found, a few with a 5-mutable cell, and only the one posted puzzle-set with a six-mutable cell.

Have you tried to run this function on your large puzzle collections?
Ocean

Posts: 442
Joined: 29 August 2005

### Re: Puzzle with a six-mutable cell.

Ocean wrote:Nice feature. Incredible how much functionality you can put into your program.

Have you tried to run this function on your large puzzle collections?

thanks
and a good idea to burn idle cycles

my post has a typo, it should be
Code: Select all
`-e 'mutable(max) >= 6'`

and to get that to work you'll need the latest solver, just posted

its now filtering for puzzles with >=20 mutable cells or with one cell with >=6 mutable values

happy thanksgiving
gsf
2014 Supporter

Posts: 7306
Joined: 21 September 2005
Location: NJ USA

### Mutable cell?

What do you camm 'mutable cell'?
What is the interet?
Papy
Papy

Posts: 131
Joined: 15 August 2006

### Re: Mutable cell?

Papy wrote:What do you camm 'mutable cell'?
What is the interet?

a clue that can take on multiple values and still produce a puzzle with one solution
its described in detail earlier in this thread
gsf
2014 Supporter

Posts: 7306
Joined: 21 September 2005
Location: NJ USA

Thanks coloin explain me
You s&ay thet you detect them :just trying each value for each clue?
Papy
Papy

Posts: 131
Joined: 15 August 2006

### Re: Puzzle with a six-mutable cell.

gsf wrote:its now filtering for puzzles with >=20 mutable cells or with one cell with >=6 mutable values

Ok, waiting for result and statistics!
Ocean

Posts: 442
Joined: 29 August 2005

Papy wrote:You say that you detect them :just trying each value for each clue?

No I think its more of searching through millions of puzzles of a given pattern !

Some programmers have roving/clue iterating methods...Gfroyle made his 17s this way.

Are we going to have any advance on a 6-mutable? ...we will see

This pattern with a mutable clue on r9c9 looks good? [but isnt]
Code: Select all
`+---+---+---+ |7..|9..|4..| |.6.|.5.|.7.| |..9|..6|...| +---+---+---+ |1..|4..|7..| |.5.|.2.|.1.| |..6|..3|...| +---+---+---+ |3..|7..|...| |.8.|.1.|...| |...|...|..3| +---+---+---+`

C
coloin

Posts: 1733
Joined: 05 May 2005

Papy wrote:Thanks coloin explain me
You s&ay thet you detect them :just trying each value for each clue?

yes, for a given puzzle, mutable clues are detected by checking all values for each clue

modifying a given puzzle to change the number of mutable clues or
the size of individual mutable clues is another question altogether
gsf
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Posts: 7306
Joined: 21 September 2005
Location: NJ USA

When a cell C is mutable in a puzzle P, the mutation gives a different puzzle P'.
but, it can happen that P and P' are equivalent.
Here is an example seen above from the Nick's list

This puzzle P :
Code: Select all
` 1 . . | . 5 . | . . .  . . . | 3 . . | . 6 .  . . 8 | . . . | 2 . . -------+-------+-------  . 3 . | . . 2 | . . .  9 . . | . 1 . | . . 5  . . . | 6 . . | . 7 . -------+-------+-------  . . 5 | . . . | 1 . .  . 6 . | . . 7 | . . .  . . . | . 9 . | . . 8`

has one mutable cell r5c5 = 1->8

The resulting puzzle P' :
Code: Select all
` 1 . . | . 5 . | . . .  . . . | 3 . . | . 6 .  . . 8 | . . . | 2 . . -------+-------+-------  . 3 . | . . 2 | . . .  9 . . | . 8 . | . . 5  . . . | 6 . . | . 7 . -------+-------+-------  . . 5 | . . . | 1 . .  . 6 . | . . 7 | . . .  . . . | . 9 . | . . 8`

is equivalent to P :

ravel wrote:Both are normalized to
Code: Select all
`....5.6..4....9....8......12....4......8...9...5.1.3...6......5...2...4...1.3....`
by gsf's program.

ronk wrote:Swap digits 1 and 8
Swap digits 3 and 7
Reflect diagonally

Any other example ?
What are the structure of such puzzles ?

JPF
JPF
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Joined: 06 December 2005
Location: Paris, France

Code: Select all
`+---+---+---+|123|456|789||7..|328|.61||6.8|.7.|2.3|+---+---+---+|.37|..2|.16||9.6|7..|325||.12|63.|.74|+---+---+---+|..5|263|1.7||36.|8.7|..2||27.|.9.|638|+---+---+---+`

here is the pseudopuzzle with 2 grid solutions..

the two grid solutions
Code: Select all
`123456789759328461648971253437582916986714325512639874895263147361847592274195638123456789794328561658179243537942816946781325812635974485263197369817452271594638`

the two grid solutions have the same "bands" and can be transformed into each other
Code: Select all
`C:\suxx>index416 test3.txt162 411 301  , 222 290 255255 290 222  , 301 411 162  `

Red Ed knows all the grids which do this !!!!! He counted them up and posted the Sudoku symmetry group

C
coloin

Posts: 1733
Joined: 05 May 2005

coloin wrote:...
the two grid solutions have the same "bands" and can be transformed into each other
Code: Select all
`C:\suxx>index416 test3.txt162 411 301  , 222 290 255255 290 222  , 301 411 162  `

Red Ed knows all the grids which do this !!!!! He counted them up and posted the Sudoku symmetry group

Thanks coloin,
I must say that your post is a bit crytic for me.
Sorry if I'm the only one !

What I understood :
The 2 following grids G1 and G2 are equivalent :
Code: Select all
`123456789759328461648971253437582916986714325512639874895263147361847592274195638 123456789794328561658179243537942816946781325812635974485263197369817452271594638`

I checked that by the only canonicalization programm I know how to use :
gsf's program :
Code: Select all
`sudoku -qFN -f%%#0c puzzles.txt > puzzles.can`

btw, Is there a way to find one series of permutations which allows to go from G1 to G2 ?

Now,
My question* was related to one mutable cell in one valid puzzle.
How to use your observation for this specific question ?
Thanks,

JPF

*The question is : is there any specific properties for the puzzles P such that Mut(P)~P
Mut(P) is a (one cell) mutation of P.
JPF
2017 Supporter

Posts: 3754
Joined: 06 December 2005
Location: Paris, France

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