Ulterior Puzzles

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

"ulterior" puzzles - minimal

Postby Pat » Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:42 am

Ruud (2006.May.26) wrote:Ulterior Puzzles must be minimal (or symmetrical minimal when submitted for a symmetry class).

Puzzles must be solvable with "hidden singles" and "pointing pairs" only; this excludes "naked singles" and "locked candidates type 2".

hi Ruud,

i quite understand the desire for limiting the difficulty of the puzzles,
and for that reason i fail to understand the added requirement for the puzzles to be minimal (or symmetrical minimal).

removing all redundant clues tends to increase the puzzle's difficulty;
requiring puzzles to be minimal (or symmetrical minimal)
would seem to greatly reduce the supply of qualifying puzzles!
User avatar
Pat
 
Posts: 3448
Joined: 18 July 2005

Postby tarek » Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:45 pm

I hope u were not offended Pat by my descriptions, It is just a way to remind people of what methods we have at hand although speaking in the very absolute, I myself use (Pat's method) to solve:D


anyway, I am trying to count how many fruitful steps there are (where box-line resulted in extra placements compared to hidden singles only).... may be this can be utilised in some way.......

tarek
User avatar
tarek
 
Posts: 2624
Joined: 05 January 2006

re(2): _needed_ box-line interactions

Postby Pat » Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:50 am

tarek wrote:

I hope u were not offended Pat by my descriptions, it is just a way to remind people of what methods we have at hand.

I myself use "Pat's method" to solve.

I am trying to count how many "fruitful" steps there are (where box-line resulted in extra placements compared to "hidden singles" only) — maybe this can be utilised in some way.


thanks , tarek, i was certainly not offended in any way — and am most grateful for your effort to count "fruitful" box-line interactions which helps turn my attention to those puzzles which may be more interesting to solve.

~ Pat
User avatar
Pat
 
Posts: 3448
Joined: 18 July 2005

re: "F : (invalid)"

Postby Pat » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:54 pm

Ruud (2006.May.29) added a new requirement,
not present in the original definition of the "ulterior" puzzles:
    all puzzles now must qualify as FN : (invalid),
    which is even stronger than F : (invalid).
Since I initially welcomed this new requirement, let me state that I've reconsidered, and it now seems to me that this requirement is too strong. The present Topic is based on Ruud's suggestion that "naked singles" are tougher than box-to-line exclusions; an idea which I'm now inclined to accept; accordingly, we shouldn't care if "naked singles" solve the puzzle, just as we don't care if a duo or trio will do it.


How about a compromise of F : (invalid)?
User avatar
Pat
 
Posts: 3448
Joined: 18 July 2005

Re: re: "F : (invalid)"

Postby tarek » Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:14 am

Pat wrote:it now seems to me that this requirement is too strong.
.
.
.
How about a compromise of F : (invalid)?

It is certainly tougher to find & create High steppers & low steppers which are FN invalid, but I myself enjoy a challenge, the puzzles themselves shouldn't be that tough, this my easiest low-stepper which is FN invalid & was posted previously here http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/viewtopic.php?t=4193&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=78
Code: Select all
 . . . | 5 . . | . 3 . 
 . . 1 | . . . | 9 . 8 
 . 9 . | 1 . . | . 5 . 
-------+-------+------
 4 . 7 | . 1 . | . . . 
 . . . | 6 9 5 | . . . 
 . . . | . 7 . | 1 . 2 
-------+-------+------
 . 4 . | . . 3 | . 9 . 
 5 . 8 | . . . | 6 . . 
 . 7 . | . . 1 | . . .


tarek
User avatar
tarek
 
Posts: 2624
Joined: 05 January 2006

Re: re: "F : (invalid)"

Postby gsf » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:23 am

here 2 ulterior ({B2:N}-valid) {FN}-invalid low steppers from a 10 min search
and a range of high steppers
the low steppers are less frequent, at least for the random puzzles searched
Code: Select all
# VI 6 steps 30 clues horizontal symmetric minimal

. 7 4  2 . .  . . 6
. . .  . 7 8  . . 2
. . .  . . 9  7 8 .

. 5 3  4 . .  . 6 9
. . .  . . .  . . .
. 4 2  8 . .  . 1 7

. . .  . . 4  1 9 .
. . .  . 9 5  . . 8
. 6 9  3 . .  . . 5

# VII 7 steps 26 clues antidiagonal symmetric minimal

. . .  . 8 .  5 6 .
. 6 .  . . .  . 7 .
. . .  4 1 .  . . 3

. . 3  . . 1  . . 2
2 . 5  . . .  . 1 .
. . .  7 . .  . . 6

9 . .  . . .  . . .
1 5 .  . 3 .  . . 8
. . 8  5 . 2  . 3 1

(edit) pat pointed out offlist that my solver sometimes counts naked singles as hidden singles
(this has been fixed but not posted)
the following puzzles suffer from that -- so they are not ulterior
Code: Select all
# VI 20 steps 25 clues vertical symmetric minimal

. . .  6 . 4  . . .
1 . .  . . .  . . 2
5 6 .  . . .  . 3 1

. . 7  8 . 3  9 . .
6 . .  . . .  . . 8
. 3 .  . . .  . 2 .

. . 5  2 . 9  1 . .
. 4 .  . 6 .  . 8 .
. . .  5 . 7  . . .

# VI 21 steps 28 clues vertical symmetric minimal

. 8 .  4 . 5  . 1 .
2 . .  . . .  . . 8
7 . .  . 6 .  . . 3

. . .  9 . 6  . . .
. . 4  1 . 3  9 . .
1 9 .  . 4 .  . 3 7

. . .  . . .  . . .
. 5 .  6 . 7  . 8 .
9 . 3  . . .  1 . 6

# VI 22 steps 27 clues vertical symmetric minimal

. . .  4 . 5  . . .
2 . 9  . . .  5 . 8
7 . .  . 6 .  . . 3

. . .  9 . 6  . . .
. . 4  1 . 3  9 . .
1 . .  . . .  . . 7

8 . .  . . .  . . 4
. 5 .  6 . 7  . 8 .
. . 3  8 . 4  1 . .

# VI 23 steps 26 clues vertical symmetric minimal

. 5 .  7 . 3  . 8 .
. . .  6 . 8  . . .
. . 9  2 . 4  7 . .

. . .  . . .  . . .
. . 5  . . .  8 . .
4 . 3  . . .  2 . 5

6 . 2  . . .  4 . 7
. . .  . . .  . . .
. 4 8  5 . 1  6 9 .

# VI 24 steps 27 clues vertical symmetric minimal

4 . .  . 9 .  . . 6
. 1 .  . . .  . 9 .
. 5 9  . . .  8 4 .

. . 7  9 . 2  5 . .
. . .  3 . 7  . . .
. 2 .  . . .  . 8 .

. 6 .  . . .  . 3 .
. . 8  2 . 3  6 . .
. . 2  5 . 6  9 . .

# VII 25 steps 26 clues diagonal symmetric minimal

. . 4  3 . 7  . . .
. 2 .  . . .  . . .
3 . 1  . 4 6  . . .

4 . .  . . 3  7 . 6
. 7 .  2 . .  9 . .
. . .  . 8 .  . . 5

5 . 2  . . .  6 . 9
. . .  . 1 .  . 5 .
. . 9  . . 2  4 . .

# VI 26 steps 25 clues horizontal symmetric minimal

. . .  9 . .  5 . .
. . .  . . 2  9 . .
7 5 .  . . .  . . 3

3 . .  . 2 .  . 4 1
1 . .  8 . .  . 6 .
8 . .  . 1 .  . 5 7

4 8 .  . . .  . . 2
. . .  . . 1  7 . .
. . .  6 . .  4 . .

# VI 27 steps 27 clues vertical symmetric minimal

4 . .  . 9 .  . . 6
. 1 .  . . .  . 9 .
. 5 9  . . .  8 4 .

. . 7  9 . 2  5 . .
. . 1  3 . 7  4 . .
. 2 .  . . .  . 8 .

. 6 .  . . .  . 3 .
. . .  2 . 3  . . .
. 3 .  5 . 6  . 7 .

# VI 28 steps 25 clues vertical symmetric minimal

. . 9  . . .  3 . .
. . .  4 . 5  . . .
. . 6  8 . 3  2 . .

. 1 .  . . .  . 3 .
4 5 .  1 . 2  . 7 6
7 . .  . . .  . . 8

2 . .  . . .  . . 3
. 9 .  . . .  . 5 .
. . .  5 6 1  . . .

# VI 29 steps 26 clues horizontal symmetric minimal

. 8 3  . . .  5 6 .
. . .  . . .  3 7 .
2 . .  . . .  . . 9

5 4 .  7 . 8  . . .
. . 2  1 . .  . . .
3 6 .  9 . 5  . . .

9 . .  . . .  . . 1
. . .  . . .  7 8 .
. 1 7  . . .  4 9 .

# VI 30 steps 25 clues vertical symmetric minimal

. . .  8 . 6  . . .
4 . .  . . .  . . 9
. 9 .  5 . 4  . 7 .

. . 9  . 8 .  4 . .
. 8 .  1 . 3  . 2 .
6 . .  . . .  . . 3

8 . .  . . .  . . 6
3 . 5  . . .  7 . 4
. . .  7 . 1  . . .

# VI 32 steps 27 clues vertical symmetric minimal

. . 1  . . .  9 . .
8 6 .  . . .  . 7 2
9 . .  . 2 .  . . 6

. . .  3 . 5  . . .
1 . .  8 . 7  . . 5
. . 7  . . .  3 . .

3 . 2  . . .  6 . 7
5 . .  4 . 3  . . 1
. 9 .  . . .  . 5 .
Last edited by gsf on Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
gsf
2014 Supporter
 
Posts: 7306
Joined: 21 September 2005
Location: NJ USA

Postby minnseoelite » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:49 am

wow those look really challenging thanks for posting
minnseoelite
 
Posts: 6
Joined: 13 April 2006

Postby gsf » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:55 am

minnseoelite wrote:wow those look really challenging thanks for posting

due to a bug those high steppers are not ulterior (naked singles crept in)
so as tarek noted the high steppers seem hard to find
I've edited the post
gsf
2014 Supporter
 
Posts: 7306
Joined: 21 September 2005
Location: NJ USA

Postby gsf » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:10 pm

here's an ulterior high stepper
Code: Select all
# ulterior VII 28 steps 29 clues diagonal symmetric minimal

3 4 .  8 . .  . 6 .
. 5 .  . 1 4  . . 2
. . 2  3 . .  . . .

5 . .  . 8 .  . 9 .
. . .  5 . 7  . 4 .
7 . .  4 6 .  5 . 8

. 7 .  . . .  9 . .
. . 3  . . .  . 8 4
. . .  7 . 8  . . 3
gsf
2014 Supporter
 
Posts: 7306
Joined: 21 September 2005
Location: NJ USA

The Times (2006.Jul.27) qualification-puzzle

Postby Pat » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:34 am

Heuresement (2006.Oct.6) wrote:
The Times (2006.Jul.27) wrote:qualification-puzzle - - - [ 26 clues ]

Code: Select all
 . . 4 | . . . | . . .
 9 . . | 8 6 . | 3 . .
 . . . | . . 9 | 1 . .
-------+-------+------
 4 . . | . 5 . | . 7 6
 . 5 . | 9 . 4 | . 1 .
 3 2 . | . 8 . | . . 9
-------+-------+------
 . . 9 | 2 . . | . . .
 . . 6 | . 4 7 | . . 8
 . . . | . . . | 4 . .
User avatar
Pat
 
Posts: 3448
Joined: 18 July 2005

Re: The Times (2006.Jul.27) qualification-puzzle

Postby tarek » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:58 pm

Pat wrote:
Heuresement (2006.Oct.6) wrote:
The Times (2006.Jul.27) wrote:qualification-puzzle - - - [ 26 clues ]

Code: Select all
 . . 4 | . . . | . . .
 9 . . | 8 6 . | 3 . .
 . . . | . . 9 | 1 . .
-------+-------+------
 4 . . | . 5 . | . 7 6
 . 5 . | 9 . 4 | . 1 .
 3 2 . | . 8 . | . . 9
-------+-------+------
 . . 9 | 2 . . | . . .
 . . 6 | . 4 7 | . . 8
 . . . | . . . | 4 . .

12 Step ulterior....

tarek
User avatar
tarek
 
Posts: 2624
Joined: 05 January 2006

Postby tarek » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:29 pm

here is a 23 clue 7 step ulterior (non symmetrical:( ):
Code: Select all
 . . . | . . . | 7 . . 
 . 2 . | . . . | . 1 . 
 7 . . | . 8 4 | . . 9 
-------+-------+------
 . . 9 | . 1 . | 5 . . 
 . . . | 2 . 8 | . . . 
 . . 4 | . 7 . | 9 . . 
-------+-------+------
 . . . | 9 5 3 | . . 8 
 . 3 . | . . . | . 7 . 
 . . 1 | . . . | 2 . .

tarek
User avatar
tarek
 
Posts: 2624
Joined: 05 January 2006

re(2): The Times (2006.Jul.27) qualification-puzzle

Postby Pat » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:54 am

tarek wrote:
Pat wrote:
The Times (2006.Jul.27) wrote:qualification-puzzle - - - [ 26 clues ]

12 Step ulterior....

tarek, thanks for checking the number of "steps" which i had neglected to do

my own interest is in the greatest amount of box-line interactions (rather than the number of "steps") -
therefore i noted this puzzle which did seem to require more than just one box-line interaction
User avatar
Pat
 
Posts: 3448
Joined: 18 July 2005

Re: re(2): The Times (2006.Jul.27) qualification-puzzle

Postby tarek » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:11 am

Pat wrote:my own interest is in the greatest amount of box-line interactions (rather than the number of "steps") -
therefore i noted this puzzle which did seem to require more than just one box-line interaction

12 ulterior steps..........
9 possible type 1 box line eliminations
6 in theory should be friutful (6/9)

tarek
User avatar
tarek
 
Posts: 2624
Joined: 05 January 2006

an old puzzle from rubylips

Postby Pat » Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:37 pm

rubylips wrote:- - - - - - -[ 22 clues ]

Code: Select all
 . 6 . | . . 4 | 9 1 .
 . . 4 | . . . | . . .
 3 . . | 5 . 8 | . . .
-------+-------+------
 . . . | . 4 . | . . 3
 5 . . | . . . | . . 7
 2 . . | . 9 . | . . .
-------+-------+------
 . . . | 7 . 2 | . . 5
 . . . | . . . | 8 . .
 . 1 3 | 8 . . | . 6 .


User avatar
Pat
 
Posts: 3448
Joined: 18 July 2005

PreviousNext

Return to General