The New Sudoku Players' Forum

by **gsf** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:15 am

tarek wrote:*Point 2 makes it difficult for non sigles moves like box-like eliminations to survive the onslaught of subsets & x-wings(The box line eliminations in gsf's puzzles are not required because you can bypass them with x-wing), is it possible to miss a box-line elimination and find the more difficult x-wing?

*Should we then forget about box-line eliminations all together and relax the REQUIRED bit when a box line elimination is made. or should we try to make puzzles with no box line eliminations & avoid all of this, OR should we find that elusive box line elimination that can't be crushed by subsets & x-wings?

*Some hidden doubles can be part of hidden triples. one of gsf's puzzles that had 2 non single moves had this, can someone miss the hidden double & go for the hidden triple?

I think you're saying this

Code: Select all: -q'{[B+]T1H1}{[B1]BT2H2T3W2H3}-G' -e'V&&S&&(T3||W2||H3)'

two groups (for batching)
each move in the second group must be separated by at least one singles move (in the first group)
and in addition (the -e expression), the puzzles must be Valid, Symmetric, and
at least one of naked/hidden triple or x-wing must occur

by ab » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:12 pm

Here's a puzzle that I think qualfies:

Code: Select all: . 2 . | . . . | 5 . . 3 . 9 | 8 . 6 | . . . 6 . . | 4 2 . | . . . ------+-------+------ . . 7 | 2 1 . | . . . . . 6 | . . . | 1 . . . . . | . 3 9 | 8 . . ------+-------+------ . . . | . 6 8 | . . 5 . . . | 1 . 3 | 4 . 2 . . 5 | . . . | . 6 .

and a couple that will qualify if you ignore box/line moves if I understand you correctly:

Code: Select all: 4 . . | 2 . . | . . . . . . | . 4 8 | 5 . . . 8 . | . . 1 | 7 . . ------+-------+------ . . 5 | 7 . . | 9 4 . . . . | 8 . 3 | . . . . 9 2 | . . 4 | 6 . . ------+-------+------ . . 1 | 5 . . | . 3 . . . 8 | 3 2 . | . . . . . . | . . 9 | . . 6 . . . | 9 3 . | . . 5 . . . | 2 . . | . . . . 5 . | . 8 . | 6 . . ------+-------+------ 1 . . | . . 2 | . . . . 8 . | . . . | 9 . 1 . . 6 | 4 . . | . 5 7 ------+-------+------ . . 8 | 6 . . | . . . 2 9 . | . 5 . | 3 . . . 7 . | . . 4 | . . .

by **tarek** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:14 am

This is a close look of the latest puzzles....The detailed analysis at this stage is aimed to bring the picture closer.........Special notice to gsf #5

No box line interaction until now can withstand the the superior techniques.......until a contradiction presents itself... the rule of A RQUIRED box-line interaction SHOULD be relaxed. the singles requirement is still in force though. The aim should be now to have >1 non single techniques to solve

tarek 0001:000900371000005060000180050908000000002003008060078009600000003287000005500061480
#non single moves possible:1(Hidden triple with quad counterpart[HTQ+] Required under superior tequniques[RUST])

tarek 0002:080000000201900065040000900090006047000005100000270090008050004060308009050100780
#non single moves possible:1(X-Wing[X] RUST)

tarek 0003:500609008000000000064000790070010020008000300090374010000050000050901070430000085
#non single moves possible:1(Naked triple with quad+ counterpart [NTQ+] RUST)

tarek 0004:040007300020000046001080005003216000070004000009875000006050004090000068050002700
#non single moves possible:1(NTQ+ RUST)

ab 0001:007050400000304000800060003760000020201000508050000097400030009000801000005070600
#non single moves possible:?2(both violate Essential Singles Before & After [VESBA])

Code: Select all: r1c9 value MUST be 6 (Hidden Single in Column 9) *--------------------------------------------------------* | 19 3 7 | 129 5 289 | 4 18 6 | | 5 129 6 | 3 1289 4 | 2789 178 12 | | 8 1249 49 | 129 6 7 | 29 5 3 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 7 6 89 | 159 189 589 | 3 2 4 | | 2 49 1 | 7 49 3 | 5 6 8 | | 3 5 48 | 26 248 268 | 1 9 7 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 4 17 2 | 56 3 56 | 78 178 9 | | 6 79 3 | 8 29 1 | 27 4 5 | | 19 8 5 | 4 7 29 | 6 3 12 | *--------------------------------------------------------* Eliminating 2 From r2c5 (Row 1 & Box 2 Box-line interaction) Eliminating 2 From r3c4 (Row 1 & Box 2 Box-line interaction) *--------------------------------------------------------* | 19 3 7 | 129 5 289 | 4 18 6 | | 5 129 6 | 3 189 4 | 2789 178 12 | | 8 1249 49 | 19 6 7 | 29 5 3 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 7 6 89 | 159 189 589 | 3 2 4 | | 2 49 1 | 7 49 3 | 5 6 8 | | 3 5 48 | 26 248 268 | 1 9 7 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 4 17 2 | 56 3 56 | 78 178 9 | | 6 79 3 | 8 29 1 | 27 4 5 | | 19 8 5 | 4 7 29 | 6 3 12 | *--------------------------------------------------------* Eliminating 9 From r2c2 ( XWing in Rows 58) Eliminating 9 From r3c2 ( XWing in Rows 58) Eliminating 9 From r2c5 ( XWing in Rows 58) Eliminating 9 From r4c5 ( XWing in Rows 58) r2c7 value MUST be 9 (Hidden Single in Row 2)

ab 0002:020098000040670100000500020002000075007000600430000200060007000009053080000980050
#non single moves possible:4+(VESBA)

gsf 0001:040010005900062013000000800002003050000579000030100400004000000750280006200050040
#non single moves possible:?3(Optional under superior tequeniques [OUST])

Code: Select all: *--------------------------------------------------------* | 36 4 367 | 3789 1 78 | 269 269 5 | | 9 8 5 | 4 6 2 | 7 1 3 | | 136 2 1367 | 379 39 5 | 8 69 4 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 168 7 2 | 68 4 3 | 16 5 9 | | 4 16 168 | 5 7 9 | 1236 2368 128 | | 5 3 9 | 1 2 68 | 4 678 78 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 1368 169 4 | 3679 39 167 | 5 2378 1278 | | 7 5 13 | 2 8 4 | 139 39 6 | | 2 169 1368 | 3679 5 167 | 13 4 178 | *--------------------------------------------------------* r7c8 Must only have 278 as valid Candidates (139 is a Naked Triple in Box 9) r7c9 Must only have 278 as valid Candidates (139 is a Naked Triple in Box 9) r9c9 Must only have 78 as valid Candidates (139 is a Naked Triple in Box 9) r7c8 Must only have 278 as valid Candidates (278 is a Hidden Triple in Box 9) r7c9 Must only have 278 as valid Candidates (278 is a Hidden Triple in Box 9) r9c9 Must only have 78 as valid Candidates (278 is a Hidden Triple in Box 9)

gsf 0002:000008000002100390005030021570000200900603008003000049240010700039002100000300000
#non single moves possible:?2 (Box-line interaction OUST, X RUST)

gsf 0003:074901380091000420000050000020395040000000000060284070000010000037000810012803750
#non single moves possible:?2 (Box-line interaction OUST, X RUST)

gsf 0004:300007000010800000050640280000030008009201500600080000024069030000008040000400006
#non single moves possible:1(HTQ+ RUST)

gsf 0005:904050001020013008000000700010400009009607200200001030005000000600170080300060407
#non single moves possible:?2(X RUST and an OUST technique)

Code: Select all: *-----------------------------------------------------------------* | 9 678 4 | 278 5 268 | 3 26 1 | | 57 2 67 | 79 1 3 | 569 4 8 | | 1 3568 38 | 289 2489 24689 | 7 2569 256 | |---------------------+---------------------+---------------------| | 58 1 368 | 4 238 258 | 568 7 9 | | 458 3458 9 | 6 38 7 | 2 1 45 | | 2 45678 78 | 589 89 1 | 58 3 456 | |---------------------+---------------------+---------------------| | 478 4789 5 | 3 2489 2489 | 1 269 26 | | 6 49 2 | 1 7 459 | 59 8 3 | | 3 89 1 | 2589 6 2589 | 4 259 7 | *-----------------------------------------------------------------* r6c2 Must only have 46 as valid Candidates (46 is a Hidden Double in Row 6) r6c9 Must only have 46 as valid Candidates (46 is a Hidden Double in Row 6) r6c2 Must only have 467 as valid Candidates (589 is a Naked Triple in Row 6) r6c3 Must only have 7 as valid Candidates (589 is a Naked Triple in Row 6) r6c9 Must only have 46 as valid Candidates (589 is a Naked Triple in Row 6) r6c2 Must only have 467 as valid Candidates (467 is a Hidden Triple in Row 6) r6c3 Must only have 7 as valid Candidates (467 is a Hidden Triple in Row 6) r6c9 Must only have 46 as valid Candidates (467 is a Hidden Triple in Row 6)

gsf 0006:060000002000230060800405000001950200070000040002013900000107005030042000200000010
#non single moves possible:1(NTQ+ RUST)

gsf 0007:017040600600100020030005009000590001000000000200038000300800010020004003008010740
#non single moves possible:?1(OUST technique)

Code: Select all: *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | 589 1 7 | 239 4 239 | 6 358 58 | | 6 589 59 | 1 78 379 | 3458 2 4578 | | 4 3 2 | 67 678 5 | 1 78 9 | |------------------------+------------------------+------------------------| | 78 468 36 | 5 9 267 | 2348 3678 1 | | 5789 45689 3569 | 2467 267 1 | 234589 356789 245678 | | 2 4569 1 | 467 3 8 | 459 5679 4567 | |------------------------+------------------------+------------------------| | 3 7 4 | 8 256 269 | 259 1 256 | | 1 2 569 | 679 567 4 | 589 5689 3 | | 59 569 8 | 2369 1 2369 | 7 4 256 | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* r2c6 Must only have 39 as valid Candidates (239 is a Hidden Triple in Box 2) r2c6 Must only have 39 as valid Candidates (678 is a Naked Triple in Box 2)

gsf 0008:040200000063000800508030100400600510870000032015004009002040301001000740000005080
#non single moves possible:?2(Hidden double with quad+ technique HDQ+ RUST, OUST technique)

Code: Select all: *-----------------------------------------------------------------* | 1 4 7 | 2 568 68 | 9 56 3 | | 29 6 3 | 14579 159 179 | 8 25 47 | | 5 29 8 | 479 3 679 | 1 26 47 | |---------------------+---------------------+---------------------| | 4 23 9 | 6 7 23 | 5 1 8 | | 8 7 6 | 159 159 19 | 4 3 2 | | 23 1 5 | 38 28 4 | 6 7 9 | |---------------------+---------------------+---------------------| | 67 5 2 | 78 4 678 | 3 9 1 | | 369 8 1 | 39 269 23 | 7 4 5 | | 379 39 4 | 1379 19 5 | 2 8 6 | *-----------------------------------------------------------------* r1c5 Must only have 68 as valid Candidates (159 is a Naked Triple in Column 5) r8c5 Must only have 26 as valid Candidates (159 is a Naked Triple in Column 5) r1c5 Must only have 68 as valid Candidates (268 is a Hidden Triple in Column 5) r8c5 Must only have 26 as valid Candidates (268 is a Hidden Triple in Column 5)

gsf 0009:700000004002050900800004070049300000008601500000002310030200007007040800600000001
#non single moves possible:?2(X RUST and an OUST technique)

Code: Select all: *--------------------------------------------------------* | 7 9 135 | 8 126 36 | 126 2356 4 | | 4 16 2 | 17 5 367 | 9 8 36 | | 8 56 135 | 9 126 4 | 126 7 2356 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 1 4 9 | 3 8 5 | 7 26 26 | | 3 2 8 | 6 7 1 | 5 4 9 | | 5 7 6 | 4 9 2 | 3 1 8 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 9 3 145 | 2 16 8 | 46 56 7 | | 2 15 7 | 15 4 69 | 8 3569 356 | | 6 8 45 | 57 3 79 | 24 259 1 | *--------------------------------------------------------* r8c8 Must only have 369 as valid Candidates (15 is a Naked Double in Row 8) r8c9 Must only have 36 as valid Candidates (15 is a Naked Double in Row 8) Eliminating 5 From r3c3 ( XWing in Columns 29) Eliminating 5 From r8c4 ( XWing in Columns 29) Eliminating 5 From r8c8 ( XWing in Columns 29) Eliminating 5 From r3c3 ( XWing in Rows 17) Eliminating 5 From r9c3 ( XWing in Rows 17) Eliminating 5 From r8c8 ( XWing in Rows 17) Eliminating 5 From r9c8 ( XWing in Rows 17)

gsf 0010:780060000006030000030400028500100000002000300000007006450008010000010700000020049
gsf 0011:000400089050009203000000400042090800000206000001030560007000000508700020390005000
gsf 0012:409000308030208060000000000002306700010000080003801400000000000060702050305000104
gsf 0013:000080510000006400280050000001960050050000040090024600000010023003600000018030000
gsf 0014:000006100040500097000020300003168050000000000010294800008030000250009010001400000
gsf 0015:200004970040600802000700000400009320000050000089200001000001000305002060092800003
gsf 0016:200640900600030000007001030000000689009203100456000000070900300000020007002076005
gsf 0017:006030500010000070004708300500403008040000030100805007009604700020000010001050800
gsf 0018:004301900070050060000906000008405100400010005003207400000708000080040010007109200
gsf 0019:090050010720000046006407500600504001000000000900201003002706100410000067060040050
gsf 0020:005000600800000003016504290100809002009060100600301004067208430400000005003000700
gsf 0021:030406020401000605080000030017504860000000000048207510060000080809000301050908040
gsf 0022:007000200100040007068127340000302000002485900000901000045719630700030009009000700
gsf 0023:580304019010050030300000004130205087000000000470601025800000003040010060760408052
gsf 0024:073905240000103000080000090931246758050000060862517934020000010000401000017302580
#non single moves possible:1(X RUST)

Ocean 0001:000001020000030004500000600000600740003000500081003000008000001900040000050700000
Ocean 0002:100000200000003405005600000200010000070000010000030006000002700806500000009000003
Ocean 0003:000000012030000400001005000000067004008000500200310000000200800004000090610000000
#non single moves possible:1(X RUST)

daj95376 0001:003604000280090000400580300008000096000805000360000800004058001000010074000709200
daj95376 0002:004251000050000013007009004000600090002090700090008000800700600420000050000543100
daj95376 0003:920870006014900070007000003490700000000060000000003029100000900070002150300047082
#non single moves possible:1(X RUST)

Anonymous FM 0001:000903000060745030003000700320000089050020040180000052006000500070639020000508000
Anonymous FM 0002:600030004002709600080040020090000060305000701010000040060020050009406100200050006
Anonymous FM 0003:500000006003000200080207050006859300000702000007346100060408020002000500100000008
Anonymous FM 0004:106000302000602000400030007050070020004301600030050010300010006000207000902000508
#non single moves possible:1(X RUST)

daj95376 0004:603091004001800690009046000028000100000000000006000920000910300012004800800350401
#non single moves possible:?2 (Box-line interaction OUST, HTQ+ RUST)

Code: Select all: There is also this possibility*-----------------------------------------------* | 6 57 3 | 257 9 1 | 25 8 4 | | 24 45 1 | 8 23 35 | 6 9 7 | | 27 8 9 | 257 4 6 | 25 1 3 | |---------------+---------------+---------------| | 9 2 8 | 4 67 57 | 1 3 56 | | 1 3 5 | 26 268 9 | 7 4 68 | | 47 47 6 | 1 378 357 | 9 2 58 | |---------------+---------------+---------------| | 5 6 4 | 9 1 8 | 3 7 2 | | 3 1 2 | 67 67 4 | 8 5 9 | | 8 9 7 | 3 5 2 | 4 6 1 | *-----------------------------------------------* Eliminating 5 From r1c2 ( XWing in Columns 47) Eliminating 5 From r2c6 ( XWing in Rows 46)

ab0003:020000500309806000600420000007210000006000100000039800000068005000103402005000060
#non single moves possible:1(X RUST)

ab0004:400200000000048500080001700005700940000803000092004600001500030008320000000009006
#non single moves possible:4+(VESBA)

Code: Select all: *--------------------------------------------------------* | 4 1 69 | 2 7 5 | 3 689 89 | | 2379 27 3679 | 69 4 8 | 5 169 19 | | 5 8 69 | 69 3 1 | 7 2 4 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 18 3 5 | 7 6 2 | 9 4 18 | | 167 67 4 | 8 9 3 | 12 157 1257 | | 78 9 2 | 1 5 4 | 6 78 3 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 2679 2467 1 | 5 8 67 | 24 3 279 | | 679 4567 8 | 3 2 67 | 14 1579 1579 | | 237 257 37 | 4 1 9 | 8 57 6 | *--------------------------------------------------------* Eliminating 9 From r2c1 (Column 3 & Box 1 Box-line interaction) *--------------------------------------------------------* | 4 1 69 | 2 7 5 | 3 689 89 | | 237 27 3679 | 69 4 8 | 5 169 19 | | 5 8 69 | 69 3 1 | 7 2 4 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 18 3 5 | 7 6 2 | 9 4 18 | | 167 67 4 | 8 9 3 | 12 157 1257 | | 78 9 2 | 1 5 4 | 6 78 3 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 2679 2467 1 | 5 8 67 | 24 3 279 | | 679 4567 8 | 3 2 67 | 14 1579 1579 | | 237 257 37 | 4 1 9 | 8 57 6 | *--------------------------------------------------------* Eliminating 2 From r7c1 (Row 9 & Box 7 Box-line interaction) Eliminating 2 From r7c2 (Row 9 & Box 7 Box-line interaction) *--------------------------------------------------------* | 4 1 69 | 2 7 5 | 3 689 89 | | 237 27 3679 | 69 4 8 | 5 169 19 | | 5 8 69 | 69 3 1 | 7 2 4 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 18 3 5 | 7 6 2 | 9 4 18 | | 167 67 4 | 8 9 3 | 12 157 1257 | | 78 9 2 | 1 5 4 | 6 78 3 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 679 467 1 | 5 8 67 | 24 3 279 | | 679 4567 8 | 3 2 67 | 14 1579 1579 | | 237 257 37 | 4 1 9 | 8 57 6 | *--------------------------------------------------------* r2c3 Must only have 37 as valid Candidates (69 is a Naked Double in Column 3) r2c3 Must only have 37 as valid Candidates (69 is a Naked Double in Box 1) *--------------------------------------------------------* | 4 1 69 | 2 7 5 | 3 689 89 | | 237 27 37 | 69 4 8 | 5 169 19 | | 5 8 69 | 69 3 1 | 7 2 4 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 18 3 5 | 7 6 2 | 9 4 18 | | 167 67 4 | 8 9 3 | 12 157 1257 | | 78 9 2 | 1 5 4 | 6 78 3 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 679 467 1 | 5 8 67 | 24 3 279 | | 679 4567 8 | 3 2 67 | 14 1579 1579 | | 237 257 37 | 4 1 9 | 8 57 6 | *--------------------------------------------------------* r5c9 Must only have 257 as valid Candidates (189 is a Naked Triple in Column 9) r7c9 Must only have 27 as valid Candidates (189 is a Naked Triple in Column 9) r8c9 Must only have 57 as valid Candidates (189 is a Naked Triple in Column 9)

ab0005:000930005000200000050080600100002000080000901006400057008600000290050300070004000
#non single moves possible:3+(VESBA)

tarek

by **tarek** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:27 am

gsf wrote:
Code: Select all
-q'{[B+]T1H1}{[B1]BT2H2T3W2H3}-G' -e'V&&S&&(T3||W2||H3)'

Any output with B or I2>1 ?

tarek

by **Ocean** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:49 pm

One with HT (and quint counterpart, but HQ available).
Ninety degrees rotational symmetry, minimal, 20 clues.

#
000000120100000300450006000007809000000000000000703900000200081006000005073000000 #L20/HT@51
#

by **daj95376** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:22 pm

Looking through the accepted puzzles, it seems that the 30-clue limit isn't being enforced. So, I'll submit these.

Code: Select all: # Naked Pair, X-Wing -- 30 clues ...8...7.82.7...1...6..9..86..5..1...521.738...3..6..73..9..8...6...3.92.9...8...

Code: Select all: # Hidden Pair/Naked Triple, X-Wing -- 30 clues ..5....729..7..5...2.5....867.8...1.24.....56.5...9.378....6.2...2..7..353....7..

Code: Select all: # Locked Candidate (1), X-Wing -- 33 clues .4.7.5.38.3..28.518...........6...12.71.5.68.65...1...........346.13..2.31.5.2.6.

Code: Select all: # X-Wing, Locked Candidate (1) -- 29 clues .95..82..8..4.....74..3..96.......83.1..4..5.53.......17..5..24.....4..1..41..37.

Code: Select all: # Naked Triple, Locked Candidate (2) -- 33 clues 2.1.8..7......42...6....8..98.14..561.5.6.4.264..29.87..9....4...84......1..9.7.8

BTW: I believe that I've now supplied the contradiction necessary for keeping the box-line and line-box restriction in FULL!

by **tarek** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:04 am

Ocean 0004:000000120100000300450006000007809000000000000000703900000200081006000005073000000 - HTQ+
daj95376 0005:000800070820700010006009008600500100052107380003006007300900800060003092090008000 - X, ND not required
daj95376 0006:005000072900700500020500008670800010240000056050009037800006020002007003530000700

Code: Select all: *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* | 3 168 5 | 1469 14689 148 | 1469 7 2 | | 9 168 146 | 7 123468 12348 | 5 46 14 | | 7 2 146 | 5 1469 14 | 3 469 8 | |------------------------+------------------------+------------------------| | 6 7 3 | 8 24 5 | 249 1 49 | | 2 4 9 | 13 7 13 | 8 5 6 | | 1 5 8 | 246 246 9 | 24 3 7 | |------------------------+------------------------+------------------------| | 8 19 7 | 1349 1349 6 | 149 2 5 | | 4 169 2 | 19 5 7 | 169 8 3 | | 5 3 16 | 1249 12489 1248 | 7 469 149 | *--------------------------------------------------------------------------* r2c5 Must only have 23 as valid Candidates (23 is a Hidden Double in Row 2) r2c6 Must only have 23 as valid Candidates (23 is a Hidden Double in Row 2) r2c5 Must only have 23 as valid Candidates (23 is a Hidden Double in Box 2) r2c6 Must only have 23 as valid Candidates (23 is a Hidden Double in Box 2) r2c2 Must only have 8 as valid Candidates (146 is a Naked Triple in Row 2) r2c5 Must only have 238 as valid Candidates (146 is a Naked Triple in Row 2) r2c6 Must only have 238 as valid Candidates (146 is a Naked Triple in Row 2) r2c2 Must only have 8 as valid Candidates (238 is a Hidden Triple in Row 2) r2c5 Must only have 238 as valid Candidates (238 is a Hidden Triple in Row 2) r2c6 Must only have 238 as valid Candidates (238 is a Hidden Triple in Row 2) *-----------------------------------------------------------------* | 3 16 5 | 1469 14689 148 | 1469 7 2 | | 9 8 146 | 7 23 23 | 5 46 14 | | 7 2 146 | 5 1469 14 | 3 469 8 | |---------------------+---------------------+---------------------| | 6 7 3 | 8 24 5 | 249 1 49 | | 2 4 9 | 13 7 13 | 8 5 6 | | 1 5 8 | 246 246 9 | 24 3 7 | |---------------------+---------------------+---------------------| | 8 19 7 | 1349 1349 6 | 149 2 5 | | 4 169 2 | 19 5 7 | 169 8 3 | | 5 3 16 | 1249 12489 1248 | 7 469 149 | *-----------------------------------------------------------------* Eliminating 6 From r1c4 ( XWing in Columns 27) Eliminating 6 From r1c5 ( XWing in Columns 27) Eliminating 6 From r3c3 ( XWing in Rows 29) Eliminating 6 From r3c8 ( XWing in Rows 29)

daj95376 0007:040705038030028051800000000000600012071050680650001000000000003460130020310502060 -x,Box-line (close but OUST move(s) present)

Code: Select all: *--------------------------------------------------------* | 1 4 29 | 7 6 5 | 29 3 8 | | 7 3 6 | 49 2 8 | 49 5 1 | | 8 29 5 | 349 1 349 | 2479 479 6 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 9 8 3 | 6 47 47 | 5 1 2 | | 2 7 1 | 39 5 39 | 6 8 4 | | 6 5 4 | 2 8 1 | 3 79 79 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 5 29 279 | 8 479 6 | 1 479 3 | | 4 6 789 | 1 3 79 | 789 2 5 | | 3 1 789 | 5 479 2 | 4789 6 79 | *--------------------------------------------------------* Eliminating 4 From r3c6 (Column 4 & Box 2 Box-line interaction) Eliminating 9 From r8c6 (Column 5 & Box 8 Box-line interaction) Eliminating 4 From r4c5 (Box 8 & Column 5 Box-Line interaction) Eliminating 7 From r4c5 (Box 8 & Column 5 Box-Line interaction)

daj95376 0008:095008200800400000740030096000000083010040050530000000170050024000004001004100370 - x, box-line not needed

Code: Select all: *--------------------------------------------------------* | 3 9 5 | 6 1 8 | 2 4 7 | | 8 6 2 | 4 79 79 | 1 3 5 | | 7 4 1 | 2 3 5 | 8 9 6 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 4 2 79 | 5 679 1 | 67 8 3 | | 69 1 8 | 379 4 2379 | 67 5 29 | | 5 3 679 | 79 8 2679 | 4 1 29 | |------------------+------------------+------------------| | 1 7 36 | 8 5 36 | 9 2 4 | | 29 8 39 | 379 279 4 | 5 6 1 | | 269 5 4 | 1 269 29 | 3 7 8 | *--------------------------------------------------------* Eliminating 2 From r9c6 ( XWing in Columns 15) Eliminating 2 From r9c6 ( XWing in Rows 56)

daj95376 0009:201080070000004200060000800980140056105060402640029087009000040008400000010090708 - (2 non single techniques) -NTQ+,Box-line

daj95376 wrote:BTW: I believe that I've now supplied the contradiction necessary for keeping the box-line and line-box restriction in FULL!

Yes

that pushes the bar slightly now, Therefore all non-single moves should follow the singles rule & all non-single moves should be required to solve under the superior technique umbrella (non VESBA & RUST

)

by **Pat** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:20 pm

off-topic

superior

not

superior 2

"superior" Topic

by **tarek** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:42 pm

Lists:

1. The new Superior 2
2. Superior 1 eligible puzzles (relaxing the symmetry rules from 180 to just Symmetric & NOT enforcing minimally symmetric)

tarek

by **tarek** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:04 am

I have started constructing a database from this thread's submitted puzzles. This will help in showing the lists for the Superior 2 collection & Superior 1 collection.

daj95376's last puzzle is until now the only puzzle that has more than 1 non-single moves that are absolutely required under the superior techniques. The minimality constraint was not followed though

. Superior 2 puzzles must be Symmetrically minimal.

Remember:
*All non-single moves should follow the "Essential Singles before & after" rule.
*"Possible non-single moves" MUST be equal to "Absolutely required non-single moves"

tarek

by **Pat** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:22 pm

Ocean's "Pure X-Wing Collection"

superior 2

by ab » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:43 pm

Here's a puzzle submitted just to clarify the rules:

Code: Select all: 2 . . | 3 8 . | . . 6 . 8 . | 6 . . | . 9 . . . . | . . 1 | . . . ------+-------+------ . . 3 | 9 . 6 | . 8 1 4 . . | . . . | . . 3 6 1 . | 2 . 8 | 7 . . ------+-------+------ . . . | 7 . . | . . . . 6 . | . . 9 | . 2 . 9 . . | . 5 2 | . . 7

it solves with an x-wing, but there is another x-wing, it's complement. This is similar to a naked triple having a hidden triple as a complement, so I imagine it won't qualify.

In the previous superior thread, if the same technique appeared more than once in the same move you only counted it once (for the purposes of rating the puzzle). So in this thread if I reached a stage where two x-wings (on different candidates) solved the puzzle and both were necessary, would that puzzle qualify?

Here are some qualifying puzzles. All solve with an x-wing:

Code: Select all: . . 7 | 1 . 5 | 9 . . . . . | . 6 . | . . . 1 . . | 3 . 9 | . . 4 ------+-------+------ 9 . 6 | 7 . . | 4 . 2 . 1 . | . . . | . 5 . 3 . 4 | . . 8 | 6 . 7 ------+-------+------ 2 . . | 6 . 7 | . . 5 . . . | . 9 . | . . . . . 9 | 5 . 1 | 7 . . . . . | . . . | . . . . 5 7 | 2 . 1 | 3 6 . . 4 . | 9 . 5 | . 2 . ------+-------+------ . 3 8 | 1 . . | 5 4 . . . . | . . . | . . . . 1 . | 3 . 6 | 8 7 . ------+-------+------ . 8 . | . . 9 | . 3 . . 7 6 | 8 . 3 | 1 5 . . . . | . . . | . . . 7 . . | . . 6 | . . . . . 6 | . 5 . | 9 . . . . 3 | 7 . 4 | 5 . . ------+-------+------ . 6 5 | . . . | 3 . . 4 . . | 3 . 8 | . . 9 . . 9 | . . . | 4 1 . ------+-------+------ . . 7 | 5 . 9 | 1 . . . . 4 | . 6 . | 7 . . . . . | 4 . . | . . 3 . . 4 | 3 . 5 | 7 . . . 2 . | 7 9 . | . 6 . . . . | . 8 . | . . 5 ------+-------+------ 4 . . | . . . | . 8 2 . 5 1 | . . . | 6 9 . 9 8 . | . . . | . . 4 ------+-------+------ 1 . . | . 6 . | . . . . 6 . | . 3 2 | . 5 . . . 9 | 5 . 7 | 8 . .

by **tarek** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:10 pm

Pat wrote:
some of Ocean's "Pure X-Wing Collection"
would qualify as "superior 2"

Yes, & some of the benchmark sudokus would also do that........

ab wrote:Here's a puzzle submitted just to clarify the rules:
.
.

thanx ab for this clarifying example:
ab 0006:200380006080600090000001000003906081400000003610208700000700000060009020900052007 (X OUST)

Code: Select all: r9c7 value MUST be 6 (Hidden Single in Column 7) *-----------------------------------------------------------------* | 2 4579 14579 | 3 8 47 | 145 1457 6 | | 1357 8 1457 | 6 2 47 | 1345 9 45 | | 37 347 6 | 5 9 1 | 8 347 2 | |---------------------+---------------------+---------------------| | 57 257 3 | 9 4 6 | 25 8 1 | | 4 29 8 | 1 7 5 | 29 6 3 | | 6 1 59 | 2 3 8 | 7 45 459 | |---------------------+---------------------+---------------------| | 158 45 2 | 7 6 3 | 1459 145 4589 | | 3578 6 57 | 4 1 9 | 35 2 58 | | 9 34 14 | 8 5 2 | 6 134 7 | *-----------------------------------------------------------------* Eliminating 3 From r3c1 ( XWing in Columns 28) Eliminating 3 From r3c1 ( XWing in Rows 28) Eliminating 7 From r1c2 (Naked Single in Box 1)

This is an example of how the solution path fails to be 100% reproducable even when we are talking about one single elimination by the same technique.
One of the moves is required rendering the other an OUST

ab wrote:So in this thread if I reached a stage where two x-wings (on different candidates) solved the puzzle and both were necessary, would that puzzle qualify?

I don't know.......if both moves can be seperated by singles then I guess the answer is yes

The rest of ab's puzzle are Superior2 eligible:
ab 0007:007105900000060000100309004906700402010000050304008607200607005000090000009501700
ab 0008:000000000057201360040905020038100540000000000010306870080009030076803150000000000
ab 0009:700006000006050900003704500065000300400308009009000410007509100004060700000400003
- All X RUST

tarek

by **gsf** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:01 am

I used these options to filter ~2M generated symmetric puzzles from last march

Code: Select all: -q'{[B+]T1H1}{[B1]BT2H2T3W2H3}-G' -e'V&&S&&I2>1'

and found 2 requiring 2 solitary non-singles moves, the first box-line, the second x-wing

Code: Select all: # 44 FNB C30.M/S4.hv/F10.21/N13.30/B2.6.2 (FNNFNBFNBFNNNFNFNFNFNFNFN) 7 4 . | 3 . 9 | . 5 1 . 2 . | . . . | . 8 . 5 . . | . 2 . | . . 3 ------+-------+------ 2 . . | 6 . 3 | . . 7 . . . | . . . | . . . 1 . . | 2 . 5 | . . 6 ------+-------+------ 6 . . | . 3 . | . . 2 . 3 . | . . . | . 7 . 9 5 . | 1 . 7 | . 3 8 # 1571 FNW C28.M/S2.p/F9.21/N13.32/W2.8.2 (FNFNFNFNNNWNWNNFNFNFNFNF) . 4 7 | 3 . . | 8 . . . . . | . 1 . | . 5 . . 1 3 | 2 . 8 | . . . ------+-------+------ . . . | 1 . . | . . 5 . . 1 | 5 . 2 | 6 . . 7 . . | . . 3 | . . . ------+-------+------ . . . | 4 . 5 | 1 6 . . 9 . | . 6 . | . . . . . 4 | . . 1 | 2 7 .

by **tarek** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:33 pm

Excellent gsf.......both puzzles have 2 non single moves that are absolutely reproducable by anyone using the superior techniques.
gsf 0025:740309051020000080500020003200603007000000000100205006600030002030000070950107038(Box-line RUST, Box-Line RUST)
gsf 0026:047300800000010050013208000000100005001502600700003000000405160090060000004001270(X RUST, X RUST)

The first although not a superior...is an absolute marvel, I haven't seen such a puzzle to date..The same also goes for the second which captures everything in Superior 2 & IS the one to beat at the moment

tarek

The New Sudoku Players' Forum

The SUPERIOR THREAD (Second collection)

re: "superior 2"

Ocean's "Pure X-Wing Collection"