The New Sudoku Players' Forum

by **ronk** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:40 am

A couple of puzzles ... to see if one is tough enough.

Code: Select all: -q1 M2 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...8.39.........5......874.9...7...6...9...8.3.2.......1 # 95622 ronk-02-20-08 #2

[edit 1: added 02-21]

Code: Select all: -q1 M3 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.94........63......8.5.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 99018 ronk-02-21-08 #3

[edit 3: #1 deleted, since it's isomorphic to q1-taxonomy]

by **champagne** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:30 am

Here the results for ronk's puzzles and the hardest of the lot from coloin I tested

ronk-02-20-08 #1 78 10s375
ronk-02-20-08 #2 32 8s203
col-02-08-072 141 34s750

col-02-08-072 is for sure in the family of hardest, but not in the top list. I'll run now the full lot of coloin

Note:
I am not organized to share my solver, but if anybody would be willing to use it, we can find a way to do it.
It's run on a PC in Windows mode and written in 'Cplus', so it must be an execute file, unless somebody wants to work on source files.

by **tarek** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:15 pm

very interesting ronk,

these are symmetrical ultra difficult puzzles. I'm surprised that they were not unearthed before, good work

I think we reached the point of uncertainty when trying to label a puzzle as "THE HARDEST"

here is the suexrat9 & suxratt output using the "10000 2" option:

Code: Select all: rating: 1489 ,718 , 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...9.58........64......3.9.8...7...6...4...5.9.2.......1 rating: 1173 ,645 , 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...8.39.........5......874.9...7...6...9...8.3.2.......1 rating: 1401 ,676 , 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.94........63......8.5.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1

tarek

by **coloin** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:42 am

Code: Select all: 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...9.58........6.......3.9.8...7...6...4...5.9.2.......1 # ronk-02-20-08 #1 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...9.5.........64......3.9.8...7...6...4...5.9.2.......1 # ronk-02-22-08 #5

C

by **ronk** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:10 pm

coloin wrote:actually ronk 02-20-08 #1 is non-minimal, which improves the rating for 1b

Thanks coloin. Unfortunately these minimals are already in gsf's q1-taxonomy. Here are a few more ...

Code: Select all: # -q1 M2 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...8..36......825......1...3...7...6...5...9.8.2.......1 # 95735 ronk-02-22-08 #9 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...8.93.......2.4.......65.9...7...6...5...8.3.2.......1 # 95662 ronk-02-22-08 #10 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.4......92........36.8...7...6...8...3.4.2.......1 # 95646 ronk-02-22-08 #11 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...8.39.......6.5......8.4.9...7...6...9...8.3.2.......1 # 95613 ronk-02-22-08 #12

I'm somewhat arbitrarily using a q1 rating of 95600 as the cutoff.

[edit: Deleted five puzzles that were equivalent to q1-taxonomy entries.

]

by **coloin** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:15 pm

Ahhh you beat me to it !!!!

Over 7000 minimal puzzles adding 5 clues to box 5
Over 95000 minimal puzzles adding 6 clues to box 5

Perhaps lets see what champagne and Obi-whan make of these....from the 8 variations of ronks template !

heres the best according to suexrat9 with 21 clues

1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.4.......23......8...9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1895 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5..39.......6.......8.5.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1777 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.4.......1........53.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1693 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.4.......29......3...9...7.....1.9...8.4.2.....6.. # 1762 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5...3......91.......8.4.9...2.....1.9...8.4.7.....6.. # 1653 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......1........54.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1741 # ronk-02-22-08 #5
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.........13......8.4.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1622 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.3......81.........4.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1619 # ronk-02-20-08 #1
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.3......57.........4.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1513 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.4......81.........3.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1607 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5...3......91.......8.4.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1547 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.3.......74......5...9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1508 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.3......91.........4.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1436 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.3......91.........4.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1424 # ronk-02-22-08 #4
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.2.9...............835.9...7.....6.9...8.4.2.....1.. # 1316 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5...4......96.......8.3.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1328 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.........1.......854.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1180 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.3........97.......8.4.9...7.....6.9...8.4.2.....1.. # 1192 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.7.4......513..........9...7...1...9...8.4.2.......6 # 1117 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.2.9...............853.9...7.....6.9...8.4.2.....1.. # 1078 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5...4......6........583.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1081 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.734......56...........9...2...1...9...8.4.7.......6 # 1054 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.893.......7.......5...9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1095 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.983.......7.......5...9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1077 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.983.......1.......5...9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1061 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.3.9......61........5..9...7.....6.9...8.4.2.....1.. # 1010 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.2.3......564..........9...7...1...9...8.4.2.......6 # 1062 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5..9.......61.......5.4.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1033 #

q1
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.3......91.........4.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 99032 # ronk-02-22-08 #4
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......1........54.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 98871 # ronk-02-22-08 #5
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5..39.......6.......8.5.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 97161 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.4.......23......8...9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 96496 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.3......81.........4.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 96133 # ronk-02-20-08 #1
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.4.......29......3...9...7.....1.9...8.4.2.....6.. # 95767 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.........13......8.4.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 95676 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.3........97.......8.4.9...7.....6.9...8.4.2.....1.. # 95495 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.9.......2.......7.3.9...2.....1.9...8.4.7.....6.. # 95253 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9........6........213.9...2...1...9...8.4.7.......6 # 95185 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.3......57.........4.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 95166 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.87.......315..........9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 95139 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5...3......91.......8.4.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 95127 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5...3......91.......8.4.9...2.....1.9...8.4.7.....6.. # 95110 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.94.......76.........1.9...7.....6.9...8.4.2.....1.. # 95090 #

heres the best according to suexrat9 with 22 clues [rather more puzzles]

1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5..32......9........845.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1695 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.879......3.........54.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1634 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.3......8.2.......54.9...2.....1.9...8.4.7.....6.. # 1610 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.4......7.3......85..9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1589 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.3.9......5.4......18..9...2.....1.9...8.4.7.....6.. # 1577 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.3......2.4......85..9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1555 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8........9.3......645.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1545 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.964........3......85..9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1540 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.194......8........3.5.9...2.....1.9...8.4.7.....6.. # 1532 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.936........4......8.5.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1522 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.3.........91......854.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1516 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.4........3......856.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1509 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.4......9........753.9...2...1...9...8.4.7.......6 # 1502 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5..3.......9.6......845.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1495 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.3.4......9.7.......85.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1487 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.3......9.2.......54.9...2.....1.9...8.4.7.....6.. # 1485 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.4......9.7.......35.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1459 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.........36......845.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1450 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.97........3.......845.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1441 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.94........15......8.3.9...2.....1.9...8.4.7.....6.. # 1432 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.314......9.........85.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1431 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.4......5.7......83..9...2...1...9...8.4.7.......6 # 1424 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.984.......65......3...9...2...1...9...8.4.7.......6 # 1423 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.3......8........645.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1416 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.4........3......582.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1405 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.73.......9........845.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1388 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5..13......9........854.9...2.....1.9...8.4.7.....6.. # 1388 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.4........3......857.9...7.....6.9...8.4.2.....1.. # 1385 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.4......73........52.9...2...1...9...8.4.7.......6 # 1385 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.4......8........135.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1374 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.794......5........8.3.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1374 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5..73......9........584.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1374 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.893.......4.......7.5.9...7.....6.9...8.4.2.....1.. # 1369 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5..79......3........854.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1367 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.24........9.......583.9...7.....6.9...8.4.2.....1.. # 1365 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.981........5......3.4.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1364 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.679.......8.......35..9...2...1...9...8.4.7.......6 # 1356 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.982........3......5.4.9...7.....6.9...8.4.2.....1.. # 1353 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.9........4......351.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1345 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.239........4......8.5.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1344 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.93........25.......47.9...2.....1.9...8.4.7.....6.. # 1343 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5..41.......69......35..9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1335 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.149......8........3.5.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1332 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.9......3........154.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1331 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.4......9........635.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1320 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5..94......2.3.......85.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1319 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.239........5......8.4.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1304 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5..94......36.......8.1.9...2.....1.9...8.4.7.....6.. # 1303 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.3......8........145.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1287 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.94........63......8.5.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1287 # ronk-02-21-08 #3
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.893.......4.......7.5.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1287 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5..14.......9.......385.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1285 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.92.........3......584.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1283 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.984......3.5........1.9...7...1...9...8.4.2.......6 # 1280 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.693........4.......85.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1279 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.4......9........653.9...7.....6.9...8.4.2.....1.. # 1277 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.98.......7........235.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1274 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5..13......7.4......85..9...7...1...9...8.4.2.......6 # 1268 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.7.4........3......586.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1261 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.91.........3......854.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1260 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5...4......79.......385.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1257 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.289......3........5.4.9...7...1...9...8.4.2.......6 # 1256 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.942.......7........85.9...2.....1.9...8.4.7.....6.. # 1256 #
1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.194........3.......85.9...2.....6.9...8.4.7.....1.. # 1252 #

C

by **champagne** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:32 pm

After Golden Nugget, difficult to be in the target.
This is on my side an homogeneous file, but far form hardest.
I picked up the most representative on both sides:
Highest counting time 156 milliseconds,
Highest processing time 17s
Lowest counting time 15 milliseconds (but processing time 15s)

Code: Select all: 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.3.8.......7.......95..4.7.....6...8...3.9...2.....1 # 99408 ronk-02-22-08 #6 156 13s812 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.8.4......92........36.8...7...6...8...3.4.2.......1 # 95646 ronk-02-22-08 #11 31 6s93 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.734......56...........9...2...1...9...8.4.7.......6 # 1054 # 15 15s609 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.2.3......564..........9...7...1...9...8.4.2.......6 # 1062 # 47 14s265 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.964........3......85..9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1540 # 62 15s516 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.4........3......856.9...2...6...9...8.4.7.......1 # 1509 # 46 15s453 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.9.4......5.7......83..9...2...1...9...8.4.7.......6 # 1424 # 46 16s421 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.679.......8.......35..9...2...1...9...8.4.7.......6 # 1356 # 78 17s313 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...5.92.........3......584.9...7...6...9...8.4.2.......1 # 1283 # 62 5s297

for the time being, the most surprising for me is still

Code: Select all: 000001020300040500000600007001000006040080090500000300800002000050090400006700000 Ocean's New Year's present for ravel #2

with the set of indicators
counting:47 processing:94s985 Print size:528K
Very low structural figure and close to Golden Nugget!!!
I'll start to morrow analysis of the proposed solution for that puzzle

by **ronk** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:36 pm

coloin, tarek, champagne etal, I had a flaw in my method to check non-equivalence to gsf's q1-taxonomy. As a result, six of my twelve posted puzzles were duplicates. Posts now corrected. Sorry.

by **tarek** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:22 pm

has anyone checked this ?

On another website, Bob Hanson From St. Olaf College wrote:I would appreciate comments regarding www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr/sudoku/easter_monster.htm
which I believe to be a quite easy solution to the Easter Monster based on Medusa chains and a few new ideas.
Bob Hanson
hansonr@stolaf.edu

tarek

by **gsf** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:30 am

tarek wrote:has anyone checked this ?

On another website, Bob Hanson From St. Olaf College wrote:I would appreciate comments regarding www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr/sudoku/easter_monster.htm
which I believe to be a quite easy solution to the Easter Monster based on Medusa chains and a few new ideas.
Bob Hanson
hansonr@stolaf.edu

tarek

at first glance it looks similar to a portion of a kurzhals loop
I also emailed Bob (currently bouncing due to an apparent st olaf spam firewall problem) to correct
the easter monster attribution to JPF

by **daj95376** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:28 am

tarek wrote:has anyone checked this ?

On another website, Bob Hanson From St. Olaf College wrote:I would appreciate comments regarding www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr/sudoku/easter_monster.htm
which I believe to be a quite easy solution to the Easter Monster based on Medusa chains and a few new ideas.
Bob Hanson
hansonr@stolaf.edu

tarek

Since it's not the original Easter Monster puzzle presented by JPF, I'm assuming that it's the canonicalized equivalent that was picked up (maybe) from a gsf listing.

by **champagne** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:18 am

I checked quickly Bob proposal.

It seems to be a clone of EM. At least, I got similar results.

Down to that point

"This proves that the two Medusa chains in Blocks 5 and 7 are synced as shown."

This is equivalent to SK loop plus the first step of "couple tags" clearing in my solver proposal.

The way to get "We can set r2c7=1. " is very long compared to a Virus patten analysis or to SK triangular probe.

The so called "Final Analysis" is not developped. It was pretty long in my first shot, it is still a long task with the last version.
We have the same clearing #3r8c7 at that point

Bob can have shorter paths than me using "oriented forcing chains" which are not allowed in my process.

I notice that he started "Strong Chain Pairing Analysis" which seems the only way to crack such puzzles.

by **gsf** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:01 pm

daj95376 wrote:Since it's not the original Easter Monster puzzle presented by JPF, I'm assuming that it's the canonicalized equivalent that was picked up (maybe) from a gsf listing.

[edit: correction due to ronk] it is easter monster in solution row order minlex form (%c in my solver)

by **ronk** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:59 pm

deleted; fully quoted by gsf below

by **gsf** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:10 pm

ronk wrote:Looks like simple row minlex c14n to me. JPF's Easter Monster:
Code: Select all
1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.9.3.......7.......85..4.7.....6...3...9.8...2.....1

-qFN -f%#.c of above:
Code: Select all
1......89.....9..2......45...76......3..4....9....2..5..4.7....5....8.1..6.3.....

At the Bob Hanson EM link:
Code: Select all
1......89.....9..2......45...76......3..4....9....2..5..4.7....5....8.1..6.3.....

thanks ronk, I don't know what I was looking at -- I corrected my post

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