The New Sudoku Players' Forum

by **coloin** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:35 pm

i think it is in keeping with puzzle development the SE gets an upgrade. Moving the goalposts and the confusion generated Im sure we can cope with. If the upgrade is speedier, it might be possible to use it, I apreciate it might be quicker to recode it ! I await the SE121 ratings on those puzzles which stalled on it before.[coloin-4/13-1600 et al]

With regards the sx9 and sxt, by nature of it, there exists mathmatical "coupling" between them which makes for similar ratings. Certainly a comparitively low sxt is a good indicator of an "easier" puzzle. Which by implication means a relativly high sxt might be a good indicator of a harder puzzle.

Thanks for the info on the swords and jellies.

Where do we go from here ?

Heres a diversion.

Theres no doubt the "patterns game" has prompted the development of hard puzzles....

Lets just say I put these clues into a puzzle....2468,3579...[song].

Code: Select all: +---+---+---+ |1..|...|..9| |.3.|...|.7.| |...|2.4|...| +---+---+---+ |..2|1.3|4..| |...|.5.|...| |..6|7.9|8..| +---+---+---+ |...|6.8|...| |.7.|...|.1.| |9..|...|..3| +---+---+---+ SE 10.6, -q1-95127, s8 M2, Sx9-977 Sxt-668 [6.7 Pearl?] [col-0801-01]

Nothing impressive apart from the -q1 .....but it has 8-fold symmetry.

But it is a base for many puzzles, and you can see the process easily with the puzzle and there are plenty of difficult puzzles very close to it.

Code: Select all: +---+---+---+ |1..|...|..9| |.3.|...|.7.| |...|2.4|...| +---+---+---+ |..2|8.9|4..| |...|.5.|...| |..6|4.2|8..| +---+---+---+ |...|6.8|...| |.7.|...|..1| |9..|...|.3.| +---+---+---+ SE 9.9, -q1-95373, M2 Sx9-1181 Sxt-686 [7.9 Pearl?][col-0801-02]

Bi-value and tri-value cells are necessary for simple reductions to propagate and complete/solve a puzzle with a low number of clues.

The bivalue cells in B1B3B5B9 are what gives the 16-clue base the low grid solution count.[only 32600] - and a good proportion [x8] of these are isomorphic.

Ocean's pearl was the stimulus with the two clues in the corners, I took an Easter Monster type puzzle and removed one of the three corner box clues that had

line interaction with the solitary box clues. These clues were moved to the adjacent box to pair with the solitary clues.

There are plenty of templates which work this way, and in generating so many puzzles.....some are bound to be difficult.

With this insight into bivalue cells, I made this simplistic symetrical "Nuggett" pattern puzzle.

Code: Select all: +---+---+---+ |12.|...|...| |3..|.5.|.6.| |..4|...|7..| +---+---+---+ |...|1..|..9| |.5.|.2.|.8.| |...|..3|4..| +---+---+---+ |..6|..4|1..| |.7.|.8.|...| |...|9..|..8| +---+---+---+ SE 8.3 [col-0801-03]

C

by **daj95376** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:25 pm

This probably has nothing to do with anything, but I'll through it out anyway.

Code: Select all: # coloin-04/13-1426 1 . .|. . .|. . 2 . 9 .|4 . .|. 5 . . . 6|. . .|7 . . -----+-----+----- . 5 .|3 . 4|. . . . . .|9 6 .|. . . . . .|. . 8|. 4 . -----+-----+----- . . 2|. . .|6 . . . 3 .|. . 9|. 8 . 7 . .|. . .|. . 1 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | 1 478 34578 | 5678 35789 3567 | 3489 6 2 | | 238 9 378 | 4 12378 6 | 138 5 368 | | 23458 248 6 | 1258 123589 1235 | 7 139 3489 | |----------------------------+----------------------------+----------------------------| | 2689 5 1789 | 3 127 4 | 1289 12679 6 | | 2348 12478 13478 | 9 6 1257 | 12358 1237 3578 | | 2369 6 1379 | 1257 1257 8 | 12359 4 35679 | |----------------------------+----------------------------+----------------------------| | 4589 148 2 | 1578 134578 1357 | 6 379 34579 | | 6 3 145 | 12567 12457 9 | 245 8 457 | | 7 468 4589 | 6 23458 2356 | 23459 239 1 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ~~~~~ Templates <1> = 29 <2> = 55 <3> = 148 <4> = 22 <5> = 56 <6> = 6 <7> = 55 <8> = 130 <9> = 18 ~~~~~

There are six ways to place <6> in the initial PM.

Code: Select all: .......6......6.....6..............6....6.....6.............6..6...........6..... .......6......6.....6..............6....6....6..............6.....6......6....... .......6......6.....6......6............6............6......6.....6......6....... .....6...........6..6.............6.....6.....6.............6..6...........6..... .....6...........6..6.............6.....6....6..............6.....6......6....... ...6.............6..6.............6.....6.....6.............6..6.............6...

If you force each in turn and examine the results, then the puzzle always degenerates to finned fish with eliminations in <127> as the first step. Susbequent eliminations result in either a solution or too many <5> eliminations.

Code: Select all: 1......62.9.4.6.5...6...7...5.3.4..6...96.....6...8.4...2...6..63...9.8.7..6....1 finned Swordfish c268\r357 <> 1 [r5c7] w/fin=[r4c8] finned Swordfish c268\r359 <> 2 [r5c7] w/fin=[r4c8] finned Swordfish c268\r157 <> 7 [r5c9] w/fin=[r4c8]

Code: Select all: 1......62.9.4.6.5...6...7...5.3.4..6...96....6....8.4...2...6...3.6.9.8.76......1 finned Swordfish r248\c357 <> 1 [r5c7],[r6c7] w/fin=[r4c8] finned Swordfish r248\c157 <> 2 [r5c7],[r6c7] w/fin=[r4c8] finned Swordfish r248\c359 <> 7 [r5c9],[r6c9] w/fin=[r4c8] finned Swordfish r248\c358 <> 7 [r7c8] w/fin=[r8c9]

Code: Select all: 1......62.9.4.6.5...6...7..65.3.4......96.........8.46..2...6...3.6.9.8.76......1 finned Swordfish r248\c357 <> 1 [r5c7],[r6c7] w/fin=[r4c8] finned X-Wing r48\c57 <> 2 [r5c7],[r6c7] w/fin=[r4c8] finned Swordfish r248\c359 <> 7 [r5c9] w/fin=[r4c8]

Code: Select all: 1....6..2.9.4...56..6...7...5.3.4.6....96.....6...8.4...2...6..63...9.8.7..6....1 finned Swordfish c268\r357 <> 1 [r3c45] w/fin=[r2c5] finned Swordfish c268\r359 <> 2 [r3c45] w/fin=[r2c5] finned Swordfish c268\r157 <> 7 [r1c45] w/fin=[r2c5] finned Swordfish c268\r257 <> 7 [r2c3] w/fin=[r1c2]

Code: Select all: 1....6..2.9.4...56..6...7...5.3.4.6....96....6....8.4...2...6...3.6.9.8.76......1 finned Swordfish r248\c357 <> 1 [r3c5] w/fin=[r2c5] finned Swordfish r248\c157 <> 2 [r3c5] w/fin=[r2c5] finned Swordfish r248\c359 <> 7 [r1c5] w/fin=[r2c5] r6c3 <> 1 finned mutant fish r6c7 <> 2 finned mutant fish r6c9 <> 7 finned mutant fish

Code: Select all: 1..6....2.9.4...56..6...7...5.3.4.6....96.....6...8.4...2...6..63...9.8.7....6..1 finned Swordfish c268\r357 <> 1 [r3c45] w/fin=[r2c5] finned X-Wing c26\r35 <> 2 [r3c45] w/fin=[r2c5] finned Swordfish c268\r157 <> 7 [r1c5] w/fin=[r2c5]

by **coloin** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:47 pm

Please tell me which of the 6 templates is the correct one !!!
EDIT it is first one !

Code: Select all: 1......62.9.4.6.5...6...7...5.3.4..6...96.....6...8.4...2...6..63...9.8.7..6....1 SE 9.0

We did this here but stopped.....

Easter Monster had values of {8.18.18.32.39.41.41.130.148}

Number of clues, full complement of clue values does affect this, and of course any clues which are insertable by simple techniques.

Does Easter Monster succumb to this too.

Essentially you are adding 6 preposition clues, all possible ways and rating the puzzle on the successful way, and rating as to how difficult it is to say the other ways are invalid. [?how]

Quite nice.

Have we got a puzzle where min >8 and max is <148 ??

GN Perhaps ?

It possibly is as specific as ANY of our present methods.

Templates may be the solution to all sudoku mysteries !!!

C

by **tarek** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:23 pm

Obi-Wahn's list that lists Jelly conflicts in my latest 363 puzzles prompted me to check why some of the puzzles were absent from the taxonomy list when searched by Label.

It turned out that I posted several puzzles that were posted previously, mostly from coloin's previous post which was the only list prior to mine not present on the previous taxonomy list.

here are the isomorphs, the 1st chronologically are on the left

Code: Select all: tarek071223170000-113 & tarek071223170000-117 col-201107-M3-3 & tarek071223170000-196 col-201107-M3-4 & tarek071223170000-227 col-201107-M3-6 & tarek071223170000-151 col-201107-M3-7 & tarek071223170000-216 col-201107-M2-11 & tarek071223170000-158

tarek

by **coloin** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:26 pm

A bit more "experimentation" .......

Code: Select all: coloin-04/13-1426 1......62.9.4.6.5...6...7...5.3.4..6...96.....6...8.4...2...6..63...9.8.7..6....1 SE 9.0

Easter Monster

Code: Select all: +---+---+---+ |1..|...|..2| clue counts 1-2 |.9.|4..|.5.| 2-2 |..6|...|7..| 3-2 +---+---+---+ 4-2 |.5.|9.3|...| 5-3 |...|.7.|...| 6-2 |...|85.|.4.| 7-3 +---+---+---+ 8-2 |7..|...|6..| 9-3 |.3.|..9|.8.| |..2|...|..1| +---+---+---+

The templates with the least clue options will almost certainly have the clues with the most frequency

There is always 3 of one clue value if a puzzle has more than 18 clues.

There are 3 clue value with clue count 3 in EM, hard puzzles dont tend to have 4 of one clue value.

Essentially you are adding correct proposition clues to make the template.

With 3 clues [not in the same shute] it is possible to make the template by adding 3 more clues, but it is always possible to complete the template by adding 4 clues. [7 clues - there is always 2 singles to insert]

If you make up the template with another clue value of freq 2 - you are not comparing like with like as you are effectivly adding 4 or 5 clues.

Is this ER with the least favorable template predictive ??

Effectively we are chosing a template with "restricted" options, adding 3 or 4 clues in a way which helps the puzzle least, and then rating.

Code: Select all: Easter Monster 1.......2.9.4..15...61..7...519.3.......7..1....851.4.71....6...3..19.8...2.....1 SE 7.3 1.......229.4...5...6..27...5.923....2..7.......85.24.7.....62..3.2.9.8...2.....1 SE 7.1 1..3....2.934...5...6...73..5.9.3.......7.3..3..85..4.7.....6.3.3...9.8...2.3...1 SE 7.8 1.4.....2.9.4...5...6...7.445.9.3.......74......85..4.7...4.6...3...948..42.....1 SE 8.4 1....5..2.9.4...5.5.6...7...5.9.3.......7...5...85..4.7..5..6...35..9.8...2...5.1 SE 9.2 * 1......62.9.46..5...6...7...5.9.3..6...67.....6.85..4.7.....6..63...9.8...2..6..1 SE 7.2 17......2.9.4.7.5...6...7...5.9.3.7.....7......785..4.7.....6...3...9.87..27....1 SE 8.4 1...8...2.9.4...58.86...7...5.9.38....8.7.......85..4.7....86...3...9.8.8.2.....1 SE 6.6 1.....9.2.9.4...5...6.9.7...5.9.3...9...7.......85..497.9...6...3...9.8...2....91 SE 9.0 Golden Nugget ..1....39.....1..5..3.5.8.1..819...6.7...2.1.1..4......19.8..5..2..1.6..4..7..1.. SE 8.5 ......239..2..1..5..325.8..2.8.9...6.7...2...1..4...2...9.8..52.2....6..4..72.... SE 8.4 .......39...3.1..5..3.5.8...38.9...6.7...23..1..43....3.9.8..5..2...36..4..7....3 SE 4.4 ....4..39.....14.5.43.5.8....8.9..46.74..2...1..4.......9.84.5..2....6.44..7..... SE 8.4 .5.....39.....1..5..3.5.8....8.9.5.6.7.5.2...1.54.......9.8..5.52....6..4..7.5... SE 5.6 .....6.39.....1.656.3.5.8....8.9...6.7..62...16.4.......968..5..2....6..4.67..... SE 7.2 7......39....71..5..3.5.87...8.97..6.7...2...1..4....7..9.8.75..27...6..4..7..... SE 8.4 ...8...398....1..5..3.5.8....8.9...6.7...2..81..4.8.....9.8..5..2....68.48.7..... SE 9.3 * .......39.9...1..5..3.598....8.9...697...2...1..4..9....9.8..5..2.9..6..4..7...9. SE 9.1

a "chink" in the nuggett ?

Seems to work on other puzzles too......

Code: Select all: coloin-04/13-1426 1.......2.9.4..15...61..7...5.3.4.1....961.....1..8.4..12...6...3..19.8.7.......1 SE 7.2 <1> = 29 1.......229.4...5...6..27...5.324....2.96.........824...2...6...3.2.9.8.7......21 SE 7.2 <2> = 55 1...3...2.934...5...6...73..5.3.4......96.3..3....8.4...2...6.3.3...9.8.7....3..1 SE 7.3 <3> = 148 1.4.....2.9.4...5...6...7.4.5.3.4...4..96.........8.4...2.4.6...3...948.74......1 SE 9.0 <4> = 22 1....5..2.9.4...5.5.6...7...5.3.4......96...5....58.4...25..6...35..9.8.7.....5.1 SE 9.1 <5> = 56 1......62.9.4.6.5...6...7...5.3.4..6...96.....6...8.4...2...6..63...9.8.7..6....1 SE 9.0 <6> = 6 17......2.9.47..5...6...7...573.4......96..7....7.8.4...2..76...3...9.877.......1 SE 7.3 <7> = 55 1..8....2.9.4...58.86...7...5.3.48....896.........8.4.8.2...6...3...9.8.7...8...1 SE 7.2 <8> = 130 1.....9.2.9.4...5...6.9.7..95.3.4......96.........8.49..2...69..3...9.8.7.9.....1 SE 9.1 <9> = 18

C

by **Obi-Wahn** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:57 pm

Finally the last of the top ranking puzzles for implication tabling is:

Code: Select all: coloin-04/13-1414 1.......2.9.4...5...6...7...5.3.4.......6........58.4...2...6...3...9.8.7.......1

Scoring 1 Star - 7 Jellies - 27 Swords

I will now try to code my new ideas to speed things up. I will also check if my assumption that only constraints that are affected by at least one of the propositions will lead to new implications. I proved that this is correct up to Jelly checks with 3 constraints, but I'm not sure if it is correct for 4 constraints also.
Therefor I might be missing some new implications through Star checks which may cut down the number of subsequent Jelly or Sword checks. This may particularly affect the score of coloin-04/13-1414 which gathered another 16 Swords after the Star check setting a new highscore.

by **coloin** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:46 pm

Two more puzzles subjected to speculative analysis

Code: Select all: .2.9..7..........2.......94.9.3...7......53....8..1.....5...6...6.2....71..6.8... # col0901-01 .2.9..7......4...2.......94.9.3...7......53....8..1.....5...6...6.2....71....8... # col0901-02 sx9 sxt -q1 SE col0901-01 3600 434 # 7089 FNP C21.m/M2.13.2016 SE 9.5 SE .2.91.7........1.2.1.....94.913...7......53.1..8..1.....51..6...6.2...171..6.8... 7.6 .2.9..7..........2.....2.94.9.3..27.2....53....8.21.....5...62..6.2....71.26.8... 7.9 .239..7.........32....3..94.9.3...7......53..3.8..1.....5...6.3.6.2.3..713.6.8... 9.0 .2.9.47...4......2.......9449.3...7......53....8..1.4...5.4.6...642....71..6.84.. 6.7 52.9..7.....5....2......594.9.3...75.....53...58..1.....5...6...6.25...71..6.8.5. 7.6 .2.9..76.....6...26......94.9.3.6.7...6..53....8..1..6..5...6...6.2....71..6.8... 9.1 .2.9..7.......7..2..7....94.9.3...7..7...53....87.1...7.5...6...6.2....71..678... 8.4 .2.9..7.88.......2...8...94.9.38..7......538...8..1....85...6...6.2..8.71..6.8... 2.0 .2.9..7....9.....2.......94.9.3...7.....953....8..19....5..96..96.2....71..6.8..9 8.9 523914768849567132617832594491386275276495381358721946785149623964253817132678459 sx9 sxt -q1 SE # col0901-02 4078 1849 # 95515 FNP C21.m/M3.730.728 SE 9.6 SE .219..7.....14...2......194.9.3...71.1...53....8..1.....5...61..6.21...71....8... 7.6 .2.9..7......4...2.....2.94.9.32..7...2..53....8..12..2.5...6...6.2....71....8.2. 9.0 .2.9.37......4..323......94.9.3...7......53...38..1.....5.3.6...632....71....8..3 9.0 42.9..7......4...2.......94.943...7......534...84.1....45...6...6.2.4..71....84.. 8.7 .2.95.7......4.5.2.5.....9459.3...7......53....8..1..5..5...6...6.2...571..5.8... 7.6 .2.9..7.6..6.4...2...6...94.9.3.6.7.6....53....8..1.6...5...6...6.2....71...68... 8.3 .2.9..7......47..2..7....94.9.3...7.....753..7.8..1.....57..6...6.2....717...8... 8.9 .2.9..78..8..4...2....8..94.9.3..87....8.53....8..1.....5...6.886.2....71....8... 3.0 .2.9..7..9...4...2.......94.9.3...7......53.9..8.91.....5..96...6.2..9.71.9..8... 7.9 421953786986147532357682194594326871612875349738491265245739618863214957179568423

questional specificity.....but not slow.

C

by **jessified** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:38 am

This was an interesting puzzle. I see that it is an older puzzle, but I did it recently. Although I am not familiar with the formal language that many users here use, I have been spending a lot of time developing my sudoku techniques nonetheless.

I found that the AI Escargot puzzle could be reduced to 6 possible candidates and from there I gave each one an attempt. In that I mean column 3 (the given numbers as well as each of the candidate numbers) has only 6 possible solutions when looking at the column alone. After attempting each one, you will find that one of those candidates leads to the solution, with no more "guessing." I did not carry the others to completion after finding a solution as I trusted that it only had one unique solution. (By completion I mean either showing that it is an impossible path or showing that there is another solution.)

Is it possible to solve this puzzle without "guessing?"

Jesse

by **StrmCkr** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:02 am

yes it is possible to solve this puzzle with out guessing the method or solution has been discussed two years back

or so back starting with this suggestion
made by ravel on this thread

found here
http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/viewtopic.php?p=37083#p37083

Our good connections to Finland made it possible that i was able to see another exraordinary puzzle, published in a local newspaper there. It is the first puzzle, that neither could be solved by SE nor by my program. gsf's program needed other than the default settings (adding coloring) to give a rating.
Since it was already published i hope, the author, ArtoI, is not offended to see it here:

AI Etana (Snail)
Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+ | 1 . . | . . 7 | . 9 . | | . 3 . | . 2 . | . . 8 | | . . 9 | 6 . . | 5 . . | +-------+-------+-------+ | . . 5 | 3 . . | 9 . . | | . 1 . | . 8 . | . . 2 | | 6 . . | . . 4 | . . . | +-------+-------+-------+ | 3 . . | . . . | . 1 . | | . 4 . | . . . | . . 7 | | . . 7 | . . . | 3 . . | +-------+-------+-------+

Using SimpleSudoku i saw 3 possible eliminations (using coloring and xy-wing), which help SE and my program to find a solution: r2c7<>4, r3c8<>3, r6c9<>3

The last one is enough for SE to continue, it gives a rating of 10.0 then.

The following eliminations then give a 3 in r6c8.
r2c7<>4, r3c8<>3, r6c9<>3, r6c8<>7, r6c8<>8, r5c1<>7, r5c8<>3.

The rest (ER 9.4) is routine for my program, which solves it in 9 steps. e.g.
r4c8<>4, r4c2<>8, r6c7<>8, r5c1<>7, r3c8<>4, r7c4<>7, r6c2<>9, r1c3<>4, r1c2<>5

Since my program cannot rate it, i will put it on top of my list, when i am through with JPF's puzzles.
As RW had announced, it is time for me to improve my program (to give comparable ratings also for those giant puzzles), but i will not have the time for it this year (and maybe then another public rating is available, that is better also from my point of view).

not sure on if u can read it or not. do a search for AI Etana
and catch up on your terminolgiy to mabe get a better grasp on what the move accomplished to solve it

happy hunting.

by **champagne** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:39 am

Hi,

COLOIN suggested weeks ago that I could try to classify the hardest puzzles with my process.

In fact what I can offer is just a comparison of processing times. The positive side is that this is factual. There are several negative aspects:
- This relates to a specific way to solve the puzzle, subject to changes in the code.
- The processing time under windows multiprocessing organization is not stable
- Puzzles that can not be solved can not be qualified.
- The program used is in a developing state, not yet a beta test .

As far as I could see, all changes I made recently in the process did not change significantly the order of magnitude of the processing time, so ranking done based on that processing time is as good (as bad) as others. It’s another view.

In the list shown here, some puzzles have “????” in place of a processing time. This means that the solver bugged on these puzzles. I’ll update the list when bugs will have been cleared;

Out of these bugs, all puzzles could be solved.

The process used has been described here

http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/viewtopic.php?t=5624

Examples given here

http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/viewtopic.php?t=5752

In the list of puzzles, the processing time (seconds) is the last number.

Compared to what was given in “full tagging examples”, I introduced small improvements (in terms of solving quality, processing time in not the target), so the reference list is now;

Code: Select all: coloin-04-10_02805 4s250 JPF 04/07/01 (Easter Monster) 32s343 dml #155 131 s 40s766 # m_b_metcalf 24s391 Golden Nugget 134s500

Anybody having looked at the previous figures can have noticed that I gave lower numbers in the past for some of these puzzles.

I worked on the puzzles described by COLOIN and TAREK in page 48 of this thread.

COLOIN list is the range 3 to 58 seconds.
Top part of TAREK’s list (125 shown here) is in the range 1 to 136 seconds, but with a great number of puzzles over 50 and several puzzles in the vicinity of Golden Nugget.

From my experience, over 2 seconds, puzzles are normally exceeding human capacity, unless spending much time on it.

COLOIN list

Code: Select all: ..34..7.......9...6...2....29..64..............83..4....5.....18...3.5.....5...74 # col-201107-M3-1 9s500 .2...6.8.4..7.......9.3.....1......8......42......8.513..9.......7.4.....6...2..5 # col-201107-M3-2 34s453 1......8......913.......5.6..7.4....3....1.5..6.2.....5....89...4..7......26..... # col-201107-M3-3 16s187 1......89.....913.........6..7.4....3....1.5..6.2.....5....89...4..7......26..... # col-201107-M3-4 16s110 ..3.5....4....9.2..8.1......1..3......58.....9....4.7........376.....4.2.....29.6 # col-201107-M3-5 19s609 1......8......913.......5.4..7.4.....6.2.....9....1.5...26.....5....89...4..7.... # col-201107-M3-6 5s500 .......89..6...1.....2..6.5..15..9..8....3....4..7....3....8.....21....6.7..4.... # col-201107-M3-7 21s766 ...4..7....71.9...68..7....2..........1.9.8...3......5..8.1.6..5..7....3.......2. # col-201107-M3-8 7s328 1....6..9..7.8.2..8......5....9..........5.6..7..1.8...34......7...2.4....2..7... # col-201107-M3-9 7s312 ..3...7..4....92...8.7....5.7.6...5.....4....9....3....1.8..5..5.......87......61 # col-201107-M3-10 8s907 ...4...8......92..6...7...1.7..6...3.....8.9....2..4..53..1......2.......61.....7 # col-201107-M2-11 5s469 ..3..6.8....1......9..7.......53..4......46.8..4.....2.1.......7..9..4....5..3.6. # col-201107-M2-12 6s125 ..3.......567.....78......6....3.9....81....7.1...2.4.....9.3..8..5....1.....4.2. # col-201107-M2-13 15s641 .2...67..4...8......9...........5..3.3.....276.1...5......4....8..9....5.6...72.. # col-201107-M2-14 12s687 ..3.5.7..4....9....8.1......1.8.......5.7.6..9....4.........86...2...37.....3..25 # col-201107-M2-15 20s641 .2..56...4.....1....8........1...8...7..3...29......4.....67..5...9......6.3.5..7 # col-201107-M2-16 17s891 1.......2.3.4...5...6...7...9.54.......3.9.......86.4...2...1...5...8.3.7.......6 # col-201107-M2-17 58s156 ...4....9....8.2..6....7.1....9....4....2.8...3...1.7..71..5...56....3....9....5. # col-201107-M2-18 18s594 ..34......5...9...6...2..1...43......9...5.6.8...6..2.........87...1...2......671 # col-201107-M2-19 8s484 ..3...7...5.7....3......56.2...9........4.....8.6...3..7.8..3....4.2...19.......8 # col-201107-M2-20 8s797 .23......45...9.3...9.2........4...1....7.6...4...2.5...4..5.9.8.....1......6...7 # col-201107-M2-21 18s422 ..34..7.......9...6...2....29..64..............83..4....5.....18...3.5.....5...74 # col-201107-M3-1 9s375 ...4..7......8.1..7....3..62....7.6...89......74......3....56......9..25........3 # col-201107-M2-22 ???? ...4567....7.8.........7..12...7..9..3.........8..56....6..45..........3.9.....2. # col-201107-M2-23 4s188 .2....7..4...8.1....91...6...59..6.........93.......5.....41.....13....68...2.... # col-201107-M2-24 8s578 .2.4..7.........32........4.9.3...7.....95...8....1...5.....9...4.9....7..1..86.. # col-201107-M2-25 11s469 ....5..8....7...3..8...3..6.3...86....5....1...7.9.......9..2.4.1...4.6.........1 # col-201107-M2-26 5s31 ..34..7......8.........2..62...17.....93...7.8.............195...59..3.7......4.. # col-201107-M2-27 3s687 ...4567....7.8.........7..123.6...9............8..56....6..45..........3.9.....2. # col-201107-M2-28 3s469 ..34..7......8.........2..62...1......93...7.87............195...59..3.7......4.. # col-201107-M2-29 3s625 1.....7.9........2..9.2..4...1.9...45....8.6....3.....3..5...1.8..........7.1.4.. # col-201107-M2-30 16s359 ..34..7......8...3.....2..62.4.1......93...7.8.............195...59....7......4.. # col-201107-M2-31 9s954 ....5..8....7...3..8...1..6.3...86....7.9......5....1....9..2.4.1...4.6.........1 # col-201107-M2-32 5s406 ..34..7......8.1..7....2..62....56.........95........2.74........83.....9....7.6. # col-201107-M2-33 7s703 .2..5.7....6..9......1....6..4.......7..2.8..9.1..........4.257.4......8...3..4.. # col-201107-M2-34 2s906 1...5...9......2.....7...4...........3.2.4.7.9...6...53....8.5..91.....3.6..3.... # col-201107-M2-35 10s125

TAREK list

UPDATED 17 Jan 2008

Code: Select all: #tarek071223170000-003 45s407 #tarek071223170000-088 7s78 #tarek071223170000-103 101s78 #tarek071223170000-109 10s281

Code: Select all: .......39.....1..5..3.5.8....8.9...6.7...2...1..4.......9.8..5..2....6..4..7.....#tarek071223170000-001#GN_Pearly3045-1812#95657#3464#2141 136s16 ........5.4..7..3.2.9...1...7.6.8.......4.......7.3.6...1...2...3..8..4.5.......9#tarek071223170000-002##70107#2953#1848 ???? 4.......1.7..9..2...8...5...3.9.6.......7.......3.2.6...5.......2..6..7.1.....4.8#tarek071223170000-003##95249#2868#1756 45s407 3.......2.8..7..1...69......5.7.4...........8...5.1.7...9...3...1..4..8.2.......6#tarek071223170000-004##67650#2552#1588 70s532 3.......2.8..7..1...69......5.7.4...........8...51..7...9...3...1..4..8.2.......6#tarek071223170000-005#Pearly3045-1801#99072#2511#1537 111s438 5..9......3..8..4...7...2...6.8.1.......3.6.......4.1...2...5...4..1..3.9.......7#tarek071223170000-006##95009#2283#1487 45s687 ...6....1.9..3..8.2.....7...3...8...5.4.9.......3...5...7...6...8..4..9.1.......2#tarek071223170000-007##95771#2324#1472 53s641 .....8..7.3..9..4...5...1...2.6.9.....4.2.........3.6...1...8...4..6..9.7.......5#tarek071223170000-008##95730#2278#1465 41s953 6.......2.1..8..4...7...9...3.8.4...1............35.8......96...5..4..1....2....7#tarek071223170000-009##95230#2054#1451 92s594 ...6....7.4..9..3...8...1...9.3.2...5...........4.9.2...1...6...5..3..4.7.......8#tarek071223170000-010##95482#2252#1417 60s250 9.......8.3..6......4..97...5...6.......1...2...5.3.1...7...9.4.6..2..3.8........#tarek071223170000-011##28563#2071#1400 37s859 ...6....8.3..5..4...1...7...5.2.......9.3.......5.4.2...7...6...4..9..3.8.......1#tarek071223170000-012##73973#2142#1393 54s891 9....4....3..6..7...5...8...2.1.6.......7...3...2...1...8...9...7..1..6.4.......5#tarek071223170000-013##96118#2012#1338 48s78 .......1...5..68..7.......4.2..59........8.....63..9..4..6....2.1......7..8.9.5..#tarek071223170000-014##95366#1854#1325 25s234 7.......5.8..6..9...2...1...6...9...8.7.4.......6.3.8...1.......3..9..4.5.......2#tarek071223170000-015##95269#2694#1322 29s218 9.......1.2..5..9...7..98...4.6.5.......3.9.....4.2.6...1.......5..6..2.8.......7#tarek071223170000-016##60750#2385#1317 27s563 ........1.7...9.2.4.8...6.....25..3......7....5.93....1.....8...3...5.7...6.....4#tarek071223170000-017##98604#2050#1307 13s921 ..4.....5.8..3..7...1...2...6.4.3.......9.7.....6.8.4...2.......3..4..8.5..3....1#tarek071223170000-018##95015#2318#1306 38s547 6.........3..9..4...7...1...2.9.4...5...3.......2.8.9.......6...4..8..3.1....5..7#tarek071223170000-019##95407#2119#1301 19s969 7.......4.6..2..9...1...3...5.8.2.......9......95.6.8......37...2..8..6.4.......1#tarek071223170000-020#Pearly3045-2180#91001#1980#1295 26s375 4.......6.9..7..1...2...5...1.3.7.......1.......9.8.7.......4...8..3..9.6.5.....2#tarek071223170000-021##98827#2014#1256 39s766 7.....8...2..1..6...5.......3...9.......2.1.3.....6.9...84..7...6..9..1.4.......5#tarek071223170000-022##95141#2228#1253 41s890 2.......6.5..9..2...4..27...8.5.9.......3...2...8.1.5...7.......9..5..3.6.......4#tarek071223170000-023##95748#1903#1252 16s297 ........6.5..9..8...2..47...9...1...3...5.8.....9...3...74......8..1..5.6.......2#tarek071223170000-024##95562#2773#1244 63s109 1....7....9..5..2...3...4...8...5...6...9.......8.2.6...4...1...2..6..5.7.......3#tarek071223170000-025##95030#1844#1239 30s625 2.......6.9..1..8...7...3...4.5.8.......4...1...9...5...32......1..5..9.6.......7#tarek071223170000-026##98803#2039#1231 63s125 ..7.....5.9..4..3...1...2...8.4.3.......9.......8.6.4...2...7...6..3..9.5.......1#tarek071223170000-027##97509#2016#1230 17s140 5.......4.2..1......3..58...976.1.......2...7...9...6...8...5...1..6..7.4.......3#tarek071223170000-028#Pearly3045-2242#67544#2001#1226 56s281 2.....1...5..9..7...4..6....3...7...9.8.5.......3...9...1...2...8..7..5.6.......4#tarek071223170000-029##96813#2002#1217 34s766 8.......7.4..9..3...1...6...2.5.........3.2.9...4...5...68......9..5..4.7.......1#tarek071223170000-030##95246#2036#1217 28s156 8.......4....9..3...14..7...6.3.5.....2..........69.5...7...1...2..3..9.4.......8#tarek071223170000-031#Pearly3045-1872#95209#2331#1211 87s969 ........1.8..4..5.2.6...7...5.3.4.......9.......8.5.4...7...2...9..3..8.1.......6#tarek071223170000-032##98760#1890#1182 19s500 4.......3.6..8..1......75...1..62...8...........9.1.8...5...7...9..2..6.3.......4#tarek071223170000-033##95006#1814#1182 27s31 3.......7.9..2......5..38...4.69..........1.....4.2.9...8...3...1..4..6.7.......5#tarek071223170000-034##95034#1881#1175 114s953 ..57....2.1..3..9.......6...3...8...4...1.......3.9.4...6.......9..8..1.2.....7.5#tarek071223170000-035##87618#1994#1167 42s891 4.......8.5..2..4...6..49...7.3.2.......5.7.......1.3...9...4...2..3..5.8.......6#tarek071223170000-036#Pearly3045-2158#94970#2025#1161 120s203 2.......9.8..7..6...3...5...4.7.1...8............46.7....5..2...6..1..8.9.......3#tarek071223170000-037##95231#1901#1159 91s31 .....1..7.2..5..8...4...9...6.3.2.....8..........65.3...9...1...8..3..6.7.......4#tarek071223170000-038##95734#1838#1142 37s672 7.......8.3..1..4...6...9...5.1.2.......5.......3.4.1.......7...4..2..3.8.9.....6#tarek071223170000-039##95245#1863#1138 16s328 1.......2.8..5..6...7...4...9.5.8.....6.3.........9.5...4...7...6..8..3.2..1.....#tarek071223170000-040##95212#1807#1137 57s859 7.......3.1..4..9...8...6...5.2.4.......5.......1.9.4.......7...9..2..1.3.6.....8#tarek071223170000-041##95578#1855#1124 16s985 8.......5.6..2..9...7...1...2...9...6...4.......2.3.6...1...8...3..9..4.5.......7#tarek071223170000-042#Pearly3045-1846#95306#1855#1115 26s625 ...5....9.8..6..3.5.2...4...3...7...1...8...3.....6.1...4.......6..7..8.9.......2#tarek071223170000-043##95014#1880#1114 21s797 1.........4..5..3...2...6.1.5...8...7...4.......5.3.7...6...9...8..7..4.9.......2#tarek071223170000-044##96111#2083#1106 8s609 .........17..3.4...2.8...6.4.....7.5.............5.3147...1...3..62......8...9...#tarek071223170000-045##92747#2002#1104 22s641 4..6....5....8..1...9...6...7.8.3.....2.........7.1.3...6.......1..3..2.5.....4.9#tarek071223170000-046##95108#1802#1093 39s172 ........4.9..3..7.6.5...8...1.2.3.......6.7.....1.9.2...8.......3..2..9.4..3....5#tarek071223170000-047##95177#1809#1087 25s875 9.......3.1..6..2...8...5...7...6.......2.7.4.....1.6....9.5....2..4..1.3.......8#tarek071223170000-048##96725#1795#1085 69s16 .....3..4.7..2..9...5...8...6.1.2.....9..........67.1...8...3...9..1..6.4.......5#tarek071223170000-049##95721#1825#1078 41s500 4.....9...1..5......6..4..8.7.325...............7.1.3...9...4...5..3..1.8.......6#tarek071223170000-050#Pearly3045-2234#72617#2352#1072 52s437 7..6....2.9..1......6..34...8.5.1.......3.......8.9.5...4...7...1..5..8.2.......6#tarek071223170000-051#Pearly3045-2773#11444#1870#1072 44s329 ..1..4.......6.3.5...9.....8.....7.3.......285...7.6..3...8...6..92......4...1...#tarek071223170000-052##98822#2861#1057 10s125 2.........6..3..8...9...7...5.3.1.......4.6.....5.8.3...7...2...8..1..6.4.......9#tarek071223170000-053##95325#3092#1054 41s968 9....23....1........716....2......49.....95....3.....8.6..7....3....4.2..1.8.....#tarek071223170000-054##95074#2041#1038 3s313 7.......4.9..6..5...1...3...8.6.2.......9.......8.5.6.3.....7...5..2..9.4.......1#tarek071223170000-055##95914#1797#1037 ???? 7......1....6.59..........2.9.3.4.......8.....6.9.74...3...96..2.......8..1....7.#tarek071223170000-056##95628#1756#1034 11s390 8.......9.7..1..8...5..83...6.2.1.......8...4...6.7.2...3.......1..2..7.9.......5#tarek071223170000-057##59254#1888#1022 22s500 8.........2..1..6...5...9.8.3.1.....7...2.......3.6.7.......4...6..7..2.4.9.....5#tarek071223170000-058##95798#1994#1021 6s453 ..4..9.......5.2.3...1.....6.....8.2.......763...8.5..2...6...5..1..7....9...4...#tarek071223170000-059##95310#2467#1021 11s781 7.6.....1.9..5......5..78...3.425...............3.9.4...8...7...5..4..9.1.......6#tarek071223170000-060#Pearly3045-2740#12976#1900#1012 72s844 7.....6...8..2..7...17..4...5.3.2.......9.......5.8.3...4...7...2..3..5.6.......1#tarek071223170000-061#Pearly3045-2283#54108#1987#1004 53s953 5.......7.9..4..6...8...1...2.4.6.......9.......2.3.4.1.....5...6..3..9.7.......8#tarek071223170000-062##95914#1838#998 24s62 6.......5.8..3..7...1...2...6.4.3.......9.7.....6.8.4...2.......3..4..8.5....7..1#tarek071223170000-063##95144#2145#990 11s578 7.........4.5.3.....8...9.....2.1.3.....6.....1.35..2.9.....7...3...2.1...6.....8#tarek071223170000-064##96110#1604#984 48s79 8.........2..9..1...6...7.8.4...9...5...2.......4.1.5...7...3...1..5..2.3.......6#tarek071223170000-065##95202#2037#984 6s609 2.........4.3.8.....9...1...7.5...8.....63......8.4.3.1.....2...3...5.4...6.....9#tarek071223170000-066##95334#1864#982 8s844 5.......8.3...2.4...9...1......27.3....5.4....7.63....8.....9...4.7...6...1.....5#tarek071223170000-067#Pearly3045-2228#73873#1831#978 64s15 7.......2.6...9.3...5.....4...6.1......9.8....8..3..6.2.....5...9.8...1.....4...7#tarek071223170000-068##85290#2089#977 8s953 4.........2.7.8.....1...3...6.57..8.....9.......8.6.5.3.....4...8...5.6...9.....1#tarek071223170000-069##96110#1615#974 50s875 2....89....4.6......54.....8......9......271.......8.3.6..5....7....9.8..4.3.....#tarek071223170000-070##95028#1927#971 4s719 1.......7.3..9..4...5...2...8.6.9.......7........83.6...2...1...4..6..3.7.......5#tarek071223170000-071##95541#1592#969 17s688 ..7..1...6...9.2...3.5.....9.....6.8.......3.....8..922...4...9..13......5...7...#tarek071223170000-072##98776#1679#966 51s484 2....67....1.5......81.....6......32.....247.........9.5..8....7....3.6..1.9.....#tarek071223170000-073##95441#2456#961 4s766 6....78......1.....124.....7......56.....638.........9..1.2....3....5.7...49.....#tarek071223170000-074##95827#2093#960 6s406 ..3..2.......8.6.7...1.....7.....5.9..6....4.9...5....6...9.8....14...6..2...3...#tarek071223170000-075##95573#1484#960 9s141 4....16....8.3......78.....1......24.....49....6.....5.3..7....6....2.1..8.5.....#tarek071223170000-076##95051#1980#958 3s78 9.......4....5..3...24..1...7.8.6.....3..........75.6...1...2...3..8..5.4.......9#tarek071223170000-077##95395#1813#956 77s531 2....39.....16.....64......3......72.....259.........8..6.4....9....7.3..1.8.....#tarek071223170000-078##95013#1922#956 4s344 8.......3.7..2..9...1...5...8.6.2.......4.9.....8.7.6...5.......2..6..7.3....4..1#tarek071223170000-079##12759#2141#955 6s125 1.......4.6...8.9...5...7.....6.3.....49.2....2.8...3.......5...9.2...8...7.....1#tarek071223170000-080#Pearly3045-1818#95560#2872#951 7s297 7.......5.9..3..6...1...2...8.3.4.....6.9.......8...3...2...1...6..4..9.5..7.....#tarek071223170000-081##95823#1489#948 52s0 7.......5....9..3...15..4...6.2.9.....3..........86.2...4.....1.3..2..6.5.......7#tarek071223170000-082##95629#1687#948 50s734 4.......8.6..7..2...9...3...1.7.....5...6.......1.2.5...3.......2..5..6.8.....4.9#tarek071223170000-083##95673#1589#947 7s781 4....82....7.3......97.....8......2......416..4......5.3..9....1....2.8..7.5.....#tarek071223170000-084##95051#2058#943 4s94 9....73.....52.....24.....77......9......183.........6..2.4....3....9.7..5.6.....#tarek071223170000-085##86575#1669#942 1s484 8.........5.9.4.....7...6...2.3...4.....1.......2.5.9.6...9.8...9...3.5...1.....7#tarek071223170000-086##95087#1958#941 5s547 9....41....7.6......57.....4......2......931..9......8.6..5....1....2.4..7.8.....#tarek071223170000-087##95143#2433#938 4s16 .....8..1.4..9..3...7...6...8...3...9...4.5.....8.2.9...6.......2..3..4.1.......7#tarek071223170000-088##95055#2037#936 7s78 7.........8..5..2...1...4...3.5.6.......9.8.....3.2.6...4...7...2..6..8.9.......1#tarek071223170000-089##95181#2041#932 14s813 ........9.1..7..2...4..53...8.6.7.......5...2...8.1.6...3...2...2..6..1.9.......4#tarek071223170000-090##54418#1988#930 20s250 6.........7..1..8...32..4...8..51...9...........8.7.9...4...6...5..9..1.2.......3#tarek071223170000-091##95475#1374#924 14s359 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2.......5.4..9..3...7.......6.9.....8...4.1.....6.3.8...........3..8..4.5.4...2.7#tarek071223170000-099##2135#1859#905 4s140 4.......1....3..2...81..5...6.7.3.....2..........69.7...5...8...2..7..3.1.......4#tarek071223170000-100##95734#1408#904 42s250 7.........6.1.3.....5...2.....4.1.3.....8.....9.63..1.2.....7...3...4.6...8.....5#tarek071223170000-101##96314#1678#898 14s610 9.......2.8..7..3...6...4...7.8.3.......1.7.......5.8...4...9...5..3..1.2.......6#tarek071223170000-102##98775#1399#894 9s984 3.....9...7...1.5...2.....4....76.1....3.5....6.81....4.....2...5.6...8...9.....3#tarek071223170000-103#Pearly3045-2191#86523#1817#893 101s78 3.........2..8..7...9..5..4.6.8.7.....1.2.......6...8...4...3...1..7..2.5.......9#tarek071223170000-104#Pearly3045-1819#95559#1382#892 35s703 4....87....3.6......13.....8......74.....495.........2.6..1....9....7.8..3.2.....#tarek071223170000-105##95063#2089#888 4s765 9.......6.7...3.8...2...4.......1.3.....6.....8.5.7...6.....2...5.8...7...4.....9#tarek071223170000-106##95894#1331#888 46s610 7.........3.8.4.....6...9...5.1.9.4.....2.......4.5.1.9.....7...4...1.3...2.....6#tarek071223170000-107##95550#1362#884 13s359 7....12...3..9......58....7..7.....3.4.....5.6.....9..9....31......6..8...25....4#tarek071223170000-108#FD44#95163#1222#883 37s578 412..........7..9...81..2...6.5.7.....9..........63.5.......4...9..5..7.1.......8#tarek071223170000-109##95251#1949#882 10s281 3.......7....4..8...97..1...5.2.6.....8..........54.2...1...9...8..2..6.7.......3#tarek071223170000-110##95973#1603#881 47s406 7.......1.3..9..4...5...2...8.6.9.......4.8.....3...6...2...7...9..6..3.1.......5#tarek071223170000-111#Pearly3045-1813#95641#1454#873 11s78 5.........2..4..1...3...8...9.4.6.......2.7.....9.1.6...8...5...4..6..2.7.......3#tarek071223170000-112##95064#1800#865 12s485 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........2.7..6..15..31..4...8.9.6.......5.......8.7.9...4.......6..9..7.2....1..3#tarek071223170000-120#Pearly3045-2239#68264#1997#830 32s657 ....9.8.......4.1..6.2....3.3........56.2...7.275..........84.....6....26...1..9.#tarek071223170000-121##91934#1825#830 25s343 9.2.....5....1..8...35..2...4.7.1.....8..........46.7.......9...8..7..6.5.......3#tarek071223170000-122##95507#1787#828 20s641 ...1....6.5..2..9...7...3...2...4...8...5.......2.9.1...3.......9..4..5.6....1..7#tarek071223170000-123##23183#1864#825 21s516 ........1.4..3..2...94..6...7.5.3.......8.2.....7.4.5...6.......3..5..4.1....8..9#tarek071223170000-124##11477#1971#818 9s62 ..........4..5..3...2...6.1.8.5.9...1...4.......8.3.9.......7...3..9..4.7.6.....2#tarek071223170000-125##95017#2312#816 15s641

by **coloin** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:55 pm

Nice work - I did suspect that your solving application could provide a rating system, although subjective, the standardization of solving and length of time is a reasonable variable to compare.

coloin wrote:Have we got a puzzle where min >8 and max is <148 ??

GN Perhaps ?

sudoku -f'%#r#.P' .......39.....1..5..3.5.8....8.9...6.7...2...1..4.......9.8..5..2....6..4..7.....
'47.37.108.38.32.96.52.12.16'

Code: Select all: GN = 12,16,32,37,38,47,52,96,108

I rather liked daj95376 's method

Code: Select all: Essentially you are adding 6 preposition clues, all possible ways and rating the puzzle on the successful way, and rating as to how difficult it is to say the other ways are invalid. [?how]

I have been adding preposition clues to a few very hard puzzles and it is very difficult to not loose ER value, Filling a full box with 5 or 6 clues always reduces ER a lot.

Except......completing a template by adding 6 clues...

The max values of GN=9.3, EM=9.2, look quite good, but there are very many ways to add 6 preposition clues.

C

by **tarek** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:50 pm

i have another idea but I'm not sure if it is worthwhile! it has to do with the solution grid.

on a number of occasions difficult puzzles have more difficult neighbours with the same solution grid.

has anyone tried to add supurflous clues over a difficult puzzle using a certain diagonal templete then minimise to search for more difficult ones in the vicinity ?

tarek

by **coloin** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:18 pm

I think this might/maybe would be covered by the {+1-1}xn process, but not if you were changing more clues at once.

Going down from 21 to 20 clues didnt get any hard puzzles, but going up from 21 to 22 might be possible - there are x 10 more puzzles at {+3-2}.

I think I found puzzles close to EM, with its grid here

Edit
Repeating with EM
21 clues , {+3-3} - 227 min puzzles, no new hards
22 clues, {+3-2} 2500 min puzzles, 1x q1 @40000 only.
23 clues {+3-1} 3500 min puzzles

I know Im making the "shoe fit" but

Code: Select all: +---+---+---+ |3..|...|..2| |.8.|.7.|.1.| |..6|9..|...| +---+---+---+ |.5.|7.4|...| |...|...|..8| |...|51.|.7.| +---+---+---+ |..9|...|3..| |.1.|.4.|.8.| |2..|...|..6| +---+---+---+ #tarek071223170000-005#Pearly3045-1801#99072#2511#1537 #Champ-111s438 #Raj-'9.28.49.96.95.63.32.12.36' puzzle,1-template added, 8-template added. 3.......2.8..7..1...69......5.7.4...........8...51..7...9...3...1..4..8.2.......6 SE ?.? 3.......2.8..7..1.1.69......5.7.4.........1.8...51..7...9...3...1..4..8.2..1....6 SE 9.2 3.....8.2.8..7..1...698.....5.7.4...........8...518.7...9...3...1..4..8.2.8.....6 SE 9.2

This puzzle would appear to be up there with the hardest !

EDIT - which it is because, it is no 2 in the taxonomy as tarek-1801

C

by **tarek** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:33 am

coloin wrote:3.......2.8..7..1...69......5.7.4...........8...51..7...9...3...1..4..8.2.......6 SE ?.?
.
.
.
This puzzle would appear to be up there with the hardest !

EDIT - which it is because, it is no 2 in the taxonomy as tarek-1801

I performed an SE121 check on 17 puzzles in the previou spage of this thread.... the puzzle had an SE121 of 11.3 (so probably SE12 of 11.1)

tarek

by **coloin** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:15 pm

Perhaps we need to look at this another way........

We have a large number of puzzles which can be shown to be difficult in various ways.......

We can add clues to a puzzle and show that they are easily solvable with just 2 and sometimes 3 preposition clues.[M2/M3]

Looking at it the other way - how about we handicap the puzzle and then just see how "hard" it is !

Completing templates with 6 clues was an easy way to scupper a hard puzzle. Except it would be difficult to believe that these 6 clues were the best/worst, as there are just under a million ways to add 6 clues to a 21 clue puzzle.

A bit of adding clues to Golden Nuggett gives these two non-minimal puzzles.

Code: Select all: .......39.....1..5..3.5.8....8.9...6.7...2...1..4.......9.8..5..2....6..4..7..... # 96576 FNP C21.m/M2.1.164025 11.5 ...8...39.....1.65..3.5.8....8.9...6.7...2...1..4.8.....9.8..5..2....6..4..7..... # 95644 FNP C24/M2.5.41984 10.7 ...8...39.....1.65..3.598....8.9...6.7...2..81..4.8.....9.8..5..2.9..6..4..7..... # 11900 FNP C27/M2.96.136 9.6

This must reflect well on the minimal puzzle.
C

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