The hardest sudokus

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Postby dml » Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:58 pm

gsf wrote:
dml wrote:And finally I found some grids that seems to hang with this setting
Then what program should be taken as reference , since it seems "gsf" can solve AL ESCARGOT and Explainer cannot.
I suppose Explainer miss a technique used by gsf and probably the opposite.

download the latest gsf solver and
Code: Select all
-q hardest
should work on all of the hardest puzzles
if this solver hangs on any puzzle(s) please post the puzzle(s)
thanks


one exemple is:

060200001
900030000
000005700
300010600
700000050
002400009
001006002
000700003
050009000

I used as recommended -B -q'FNP(FNBTHWXY)V(9)-G' -f%Q
Is not it a valid way to evaluate hard sudokus?

As new in the list I expected to find a standard reference way to evaluate the sudokus.
I understand how this can be a hard problem but since many people work on that since quite a while I expected some consensus.
And logically an agreement on best program to evaluate, for me it can only be a command line program otherwise we cannot test extensively it with millions of sudokus, make statistics etc..

Is AL escargot the hardest sudoku in the world?
And why ? Just because Explainer does not find a logical solution?

Is your program exhaustif in term of know technics to solve the sudoku?
thanks
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Postby gsf » Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:10 pm

dml wrote:I used as recommended -B -q'FNP(FNBTHWXY)V(9)-G' -f%Q
Is not it a valid way to evaluate hard sudokus?

the option above was a workaround until I reposted my solver
its reposted and with that version
-q hardest should rate all of the puzzles posted in this thread

note that there is a difference between solving and rating
most of the solvers referencesd on this forum are pretty solid
but rating is still in flux and certain input data and options may illustrate that
even for the solid solvers

thanks for the posted puzzle
along with the workaround options
it coaxes bad behavior in the Y cycle method that is usually not hit
because other methods (disabled by the workaround) usually solve first
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Postby RW » Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:16 pm

dml wrote:I propose this one for now that reaches 99966
500600100
002004000
000007090
009080200
030000040
007100006
010200500
000030070
006900000

dml wrote:one exemple is:

060200001
900030000
000005700
300010600
700000050
002400009
001006002
000700003
050009000

Using the basic rating command from this post, I get 99252 and 99344 (SE: 7.3 and 9.1).

gsf, using your latest version and only the option '-q hardest' I got the output:
8/22/01/0023/1 .6.2....19...3.........57..3...1.6..7......5...24....9..1..6..2...7....3.5...9...
8/22/00/0021/1 5..6..1....2..4........7.9...9.8.2...3.....4...71....6.1.2..5......3..7...69.....

Am I missing something?

dml wrote:Is AL escargot the hardest sudoku in the world?
And why ? Just because Explainer does not find a logical solution?

Have you looked at the list of hardest puzzles in this thread? There's several puzzles that are harder than the AI Escargot. Ocean has found eight other puzzles that cannot be solved by explainer and tarek also found one.

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Postby tarek » Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:05 am

dml wrote:I tried -B -q'FNP(FNBTHWXY)V(9)-G' -f%Q

just change the -q'FNP(FNBTHWXY)V(9)-G' to -q hardest, you will get the intended rating. If you read the 1st post in this thread, it has all the puzzles that you want ..... forget the top95

gsf wrote:download the latest gsf solver and
Code: Select all
-q hardest
should work on all of the hardest puzzles
if this solver hangs on any puzzle(s) please post the puzzle(s)
thanks

The long awaited update.....great.....

I've noticed that some older ratings have changed (slashed down:( ) when I re-ran them through this updated version, was that intentional ???

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Postby Karlson » Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:42 am

These are the Top20 Sudokus with the new hardest option:
99960 001002000030040050600700800006000007010000030900000600007001008040030020000500900
99960 060900003500004020000080400800000050003000700090000001001050000070300009900002040
99920 100007090030020008009600500005300900010080002600004000300000010040000007007000300
99909 001002000030040050600700800008000007010000040900000500004001008020030010000600900
99859 001002000030040050500600700007000006010000020800000400006001009040030010000700800
99851 001002000030040050600700800006000007010000020900000500003001006040050030000800900
99839 001002000030040050600700800008000007010000030900000500002001006040050020000600900
99789 900001800060030000002500007009000006050000020400000300300008100000040080007900005
99780 001002000030040050004700800006000007010000030900000600007001008040030020060500900
99717 001002000030040050500600700007000008010000030900000600008003001040010020000500900
99707 001002000030040050500600700007000006010000080900000200002001004080030010000900500
99700 001002000030040050500600100007000006080000090400000300006007002090030080000100400
99697 001002000030040050500600700007000006010000080900000200003007001080010040000500900
99696 000001002010020030400500000004000006070030010800000900500008000000010070006400500
99688 001002000030040050500600700008000006010000020900000500002001004070030010000800600
99687 001002000030040010500600700007000006010000030800000900002007001040050020000900800
99679 001000200030000040500060007000108000040070050000209000600000005070080060002000900
99668 000001002010030040500600000004000001070080030200000900900002000000040070003500800
99667 600009800050030000002500007007000009010000020400000300300008600000040080009700001
99661 001000200030000040400050006000102000060070030000809000300000005050040060008000900


Regards,
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Postby gsf » Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:18 am

RW wrote:gsf, using your latest version and only the option '-q hardest' I got the output:
8/22/01/0023/1 .6.2....19...3.........57..3...1.6..7......5...24....9..1..6..2...7....3.5...9...
8/22/00/0021/1 5..6..1....2..4........7.9...9.8.2...3.....4...71....6.1.2..5......3..7...69.....

Am I missing something?

sorry, -q controls the methods applied, not the output
-f%r%,%v will print the rating and the original puzzle
-f%Q will print the rating and stats for the methods applied
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Postby gsf » Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:29 am

RW wrote:
gsf wrote:agreed that "here's a backdoor" is not an acceptable solution
that's where batching enters the picture
if you take into account every candidate for each puzzle position then
the backdoors become a statistic that factors into puzzle difficulty

Is there a way to tell your program not to use backdoor solutions but only eliminations to reach the solution? It would be interesting to know what proposition constraints are required to reach the solution by elimination in the puzzles your solver solves with backdoors.

the latest posted solver has -X to ignore backdoors in propositions
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Postby gsf » Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:39 am

tarek wrote:The long awaited update.....great.....

I've noticed that some older ratings have changed (slashed down:( ) when I re-ran them through this updated version, was that intentional ???

on nov 6 in this thread RW found a bug in my solver's proposition constraint logic
fixing that bug had the effect of lowering the ratings for puzzles previously affected by the bug
also, to accomodate the latest hardest some of the 993?? and 994?? ratings may have changed

stop finding harder puzzles and the ratings will stabilize
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Postby dml » Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:17 pm

gsf wrote:the option above was a workaround until I reposted my solver
its reposted and with that version
-q hardest should rate all of the puzzles posted in this thread
first


Could you repost the linux version?
thanks
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Postby gsf » Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:59 pm

dml wrote:Could you repost the linux version?
thanks

done
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Postby tarek » Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:22 pm

I'm not sure if anyone would be interested to know that a new update of the Sudoku explainer has been released .....

Try not to jam the site:D

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Postby RW » Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:54 pm

tarek wrote:I'm not sure if anyone would be interested to know that a new update of the Sudoku explainer has been released .....

Lovely! It can now rate all known puzzles (Ocean's #5: ER 10.6) and it can read and analyze multiple puzzles from a file! Great!!:D

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Postby tarek » Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:58 am

RW wrote:it can read and analyze multiple puzzles from a file! Great!!:D

Not if you are rating a list of ultra hard puzzles.......it can take Hours even on a powrful computer....:(

My computer crashed when rating the the top 20 that Karlson organised, I re-ran it on 2 of my puzzles only. Gyroscope #1 is 10.4 now & Fluid Drive#8 is 10.6:!:

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Postby RW » Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:52 am

tarek wrote:Not if you are rating a list of ultra hard puzzles.......it can take Hours even on a powrful computer....:(

My computer crashed when rating the the top 20 that Karlson organised,

Ha, so your 1920*1200 wide screen which can 90 degrees rotate did not help you here!:D Time to invest in a better computer?

I started to rate the ten previously unrated puzzles and then went to sleep, this was on my desk in the morning:
001002000030040050600700800006000007010000030900000600007001008040030020000500900
55 Hidden Single
1 Direct Hidden Pair
1 Direct Hidden Triplet
5 Pointing
1 Claiming
2 Naked Pair
1 X-Wing
1 Hidden Pair
1 Naked Triplet
1 Unique Rectangle type 1
2 Turbot Fish
1 Forcing X-Chain
1 Forcing Chain
1 Nishio Forcing Chains
3 Region Forcing Chains
11 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains
3 Dynamic Cell Forcing Chains
19 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains
7 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+)
2 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains (+)
5 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Hardest technique: Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Difficulty: 10.6

060900003500004020000080400800000050003000700090000001001050000070300009900002040
52 Hidden Single
4 Direct Hidden Pair
2 Naked Single
7 Pointing
1 Claiming
4 Naked Pair
1 X-Wing
1 Hidden Pair
1 Swordfish
3 XY-Wing
1 BUG type 1
2 Forcing X-Chain
1 Bidirectional Y-Cycle
3 Bidirectional Cycle
3 Forcing Chain
2 Nishio Forcing Chains
2 Region Forcing Chains
2 Cell Forcing Chains
24 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains
8 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains
2 Dynamic Double Forcing Chains
7 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+)
1 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Hardest technique: Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Difficulty: 10.4

001002000030040050600700800006000007010000020900000500003001006040050030000800900
56 Hidden Single
1 Direct Hidden Pair
1 Naked Single
1 Direct Hidden Triplet
5 Pointing
2 Claiming
1 Naked Pair
1 X-Wing
2 Hidden Pair
1 Naked Triplet
2 Turbot Fish
7 Forcing Chain
1 Bidirectional Cycle
6 Nishio Forcing Chains
2 Cell Forcing Chains
9 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains
2 Dynamic Cell Forcing Chains
16 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains
7 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+)
2 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Hardest technique: Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Difficulty: 10.5

100007090030020008009600500005300900010080002600004000300000010040000007007000300
54 Hidden Single
2 Direct Hidden Pair
1 Naked Single
6 Pointing
4 Claiming
2 X-Wing
3 Hidden Pair
1 Unique Rectangle type 2
1 BUG type 1
1 Bidirectional Y-Cycle
3 Forcing Chain
5 Nishio Forcing Chains
6 Region Forcing Chains
21 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains
4 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains
1 Dynamic Double Forcing Chains
8 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+)
1 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains (+)
1 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
5 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Hardest technique: Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Difficulty: 10.5

001002000030040050600700800008000007010000040900000500004001008020030010000600900
54 Hidden Single
1 Direct Hidden Pair
2 Naked Single
4 Pointing
1 Hidden Pair
2 Turbot Fish
1 Forcing X-Chain
5 Forcing Chain
1 Bidirectional Cycle
4 Cell Forcing Chains
7 Region Forcing Chains
5 Dynamic Cell Forcing Chains
21 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains
4 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains
6 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+)
2 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Hardest technique: Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Difficulty: 10.6

001002000030040050500600700007000006010000020800000400006001009040030010000700800
57 Hidden Single
1 Naked Single
1 Direct Hidden Triplet
2 Naked Pair
3 Hidden Pair
1 Naked Triplet
1 Aligned Pair Exclusion
2 Turbot Fish
2 Forcing X-Chain
1 Bidirectional Cycle
7 Forcing Chain
3 Region Forcing Chains
4 Dynamic Cell Forcing Chains
2 Dynamic Double Forcing Chains
5 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains
22 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains
4 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+)
10 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
1 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Hardest technique: Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Difficulty: 10.6

001002000030040050600700800008000007010000030900000500002001006040050020000600900
57 Hidden Single
2 Naked Single
4 Pointing
1 Claiming
2 Naked Pair
2 X-Wing
3 Hidden Pair
1 Naked Triplet
1 XYZ-Wing
2 XY-Wing
6 Turbot Fish
2 Bidirectional Cycle
3 Forcing Chain
2 Nishio Forcing Chains
6 Region Forcing Chains
2 Cell Forcing Chains
1 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains
2 Dynamic Cell Forcing Chains
13 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains
4 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+)
2 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Hardest technique: Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Difficulty: 10.3

001002000030040010500600700007000006010000030800000900002007001040050020000900800
57 Hidden Single
1 Direct Hidden Pair
2 Pointing
1 Claiming
1 Naked Pair
2 Hidden Pair
2 Naked Triplet
2 Turbot Fish
2 Forcing X-Chain
3 Bidirectional Cycle
11 Forcing Chain
3 Nishio Forcing Chains
6 Region Forcing Chains
2 Cell Forcing Chains
22 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains
3 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains
1 Dynamic Cell Forcing Chains
6 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+)
1 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Hardest technique: Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Difficulty: 10.4

001002000030040050500600700007000006010000030800000900009003002020010040000700800
57 Hidden Single
1 Naked Single
7 Pointing
3 Claiming
4 Naked Pair
1 X-Wing
4 Hidden Pair
1 Naked Triplet
1 Swordfish
1 Hidden Triplet
2 XYZ-Wing
1 XY-Wing
2 Forcing X-Chain
1 Bidirectional Y-Cycle
10 Forcing Chain
2 Cell Forcing Chains
7 Region Forcing Chains
3 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains
21 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains
1 Dynamic Double Forcing Chains
1 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains (+)
3 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+)
8 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
1 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Hardest technique: Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Difficulty: 10.6

001002000030040050500600300007000006080000040200000100006009007040070080000500900
54 Hidden Single
2 Direct Hidden Pair
3 Naked Single
2 Pointing
1 Claiming
4 Naked Pair
2 X-Wing
5 Hidden Pair
1 Naked Triplet
1 Swordfish
1 Turbot Fish
2 Forcing X-Chain
7 Forcing Chain
1 Bidirectional Cycle
1 Nishio Forcing Chains
7 Region Forcing Chains
1 Cell Forcing Chains
20 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains
3 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains
2 Dynamic Cell Forcing Chains
4 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+)
1 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains (+)
3 Dynamic Cell Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
2 Dynamic Contradiction Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
2 Dynamic Region Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Hardest technique: Dynamic Cell Forcing Chains (+ Forcing Chains)
Difficulty: 10.6

I believe it took around 10-20 minutes / puzzle.

RW
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Postby tarek » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:43 am

Thanx RW,

I'm not sure if we need to re-rate what we've got.....Fluid Drive #8 got a boos to 10.6....& I've checked the site rating score & apparantly, if you have anything with a (+) on the old system the you should re-rate it ..... I'll try at least to re-rate my latest submitted puzzles which I posted more than a week ago.....

By the way, where is ravel........He must be on annual leave:D

RW wrote:Ha, so your 1920*1200 wide screen which can 90 degrees rotate did not help you here!:D Time to invest in a better computer

The computer needs an upgrade then:( ....... The screen is worth the money....... One advantage is that Carcul's one-steppers make use of the extra length to the maximum.......

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