The New Sudoku Players' Forum

by **ronk** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:12 pm

At the start, Cigarette has a variant of the sk-loop that I don't recall seeing before.

____

In particular, note that the clues in r8c9 and r5c5 differ. Ditto for the clues in r9c6 and r6c9.

by **eleven** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:21 am

For my understanding of the SK loop this is just a basic one, the pairs loop
r4c56=13 -> r4c89=89 -> r56c7=24 -> r89c7=67 -> r7c89=15 -> r7c56=58 -> r89c4=15 -> r56c4=79 -> r4c56=13
is all you need for the eliminations.

Different to your last one, which needed more than a pure pairs loop.

For the record:
In the other thread Coloin has posted extremely high suexrat ratings for many puzzles. A part of these puzzles (including the hardest) had already been published by me in this or that thread without suexrat ratings, so i claim them for me. To honour Coloins findings i want to give the hardest his name:

Code: Select all: +-------+-------+-------+ | 1 2 . | 3 . . | 4 . . | | 5 . . | 1 . . | 3 . . | | . . . | . 6 . | . 2 . | +-------+-------+-------+ | 3 . . | 4 . . | 5 . . | | . 7 . | . . . | . . . | | . . 8 | . . . | . 3 . | +-------+-------+-------+ | 9 . . | . . . | . . . | | . . . | 9 . . | . 5 3 | | . . . | . 4 1 | 9 . . | +-------+-------+-------+ Coloin

It seems to be very asymmetric with its 6 minrow/colums with 2 clues, maybe a reason, why it has not been found before.
btw what are the options for gsf's program for finding a "best" symmetry ?

So these are the puzzles with suexrat9 > 6800 and/or suexratt > 4000 (both limits higher than the current top puzzles) with ED,q1,q2:

eleven

Code: Select all: 10378 5710 ..3......4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9..........2..5..4.7..686........7..6..5.. 11.0 11.0 2.6 95078 98434 Coloin 9547 5174 ..3......4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9..........2..5..4.7..686....4...7.....5.. 11.0 11.0 2.6 95226 98414 9220 5804 ..3......4...8..36..83..1...4..6..73...9..........2..5..4.7..686........7.....5.. 10.9 10.9 2.6 95183 98587 8917 5333 ...4......5..8.2.6.....7...2...4....3......1...5.3.8.25...6.3.8..6....95..8...... 10.4 10.4 2.6 95273 67100 8568 4143 1....6.8...71....66.....15..3.9.....7....184.....2........9.41.5....4..8...8..5.. 10.3 10.3 10.0 95209 97527 8508 4880 .2....7..4....9.3.6..2.3.4.....1......89.....9....4.6..94....5.5.....6.3.....5... 10.9 10.9 2.6 95178 96787 8507 4354 ..3......4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9...1......2.....4.7..686........7..6..5.. 11.0 11.0 2.6 98810 98383 8491 4603 1...5.7.9..7.......6.......2...........5.1..2....2.39.3.4.9...15...1...3...8...4. 10.3 10.3 2.6 95219 72396 8446 4487 ..3......4...8..36..83..1...4..6..73...9...1......2.....4.7..686........7.....5.. 10.9 10.9 2.6 96128 98323 8042 4534 ..34.....4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9..........2..5..4.7..686........7.....5.. 11.0 11.0 2.6 95316 98797 7927 3770 ...4......5...9...6...2..1.2...7.9.1..5....7......8.3...6....9.7...3.1......9.327 10.3 10.3 2.6 59168 25378 7799 4027 ...4......5..8.2.6.....71..2...4....3......1...5.3.8.25...6.3.8..6....9...8...... 10.4 10.4 2.6 95223 74804 7515 5454 1...5.7.9..71......6.......2...........5.1..2....2.39.3...9...15...1...3...8...4. 10.4 10.4 2.6 95099 49425 7270 3085 1...56....5718...66...7.....9.3............9.8....5..35...17..8..2....1.......4.. 10.2 10.2 2.6 58616 22275 7140 4410 1....6.8...7.....66.....15..3.9.........2....7....854.....9.81.8...41..5.1....4.. 10.3 10.3 10.0 95140 21349 7052 3603 ..3......4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9..........2..5....7..686....4...7.....54. 11.0 1.2 1.2 95498 98798 6993 4979 ...4......5..8.2.6.....7...2...4....3......1...5.3.8.25...6.3.8..6..8.9...8...... 10.4 10.4 2.6 95111 58050 6952 4241 ...4......5..8.2.6.....7...2........3.....51...5.3.8.25...6.3.8..6....9...8.7.... 10.4 10.4 2.6 95327 95086 6903 3436 12..5...9.57...2...9..2..1....8..9.47...6.1.......4............57..9.6....6..3... 10.3 10.3 2.6 45827 77805 6753 4018 .2.4...8...7.....3.8.237.1.2.1....9..9....8.4...9......1.8...4.5............6...8 10.9 1.2 1.2 46997 97421 6752 4026 .2.4...8...7.....3...237.1.2.1....9..9....8.48..9......1.8...4.5.8..........6.... 10.9 1.2 1.2 46997 97421 6747 4052 .2.4...8...7.....3.8.237.1.2.1....9..9....8.4...9......1.8...4.5.8..........6.... 10.9 1.2 1.2 46997 97421 6678 4348 ..3..67.........2.79.2......3....6..5....4..76.7..3.453.5..74...............1...8 10.6 10.6 9.5 70048 91994 6645 4192 ..3.5.....5.1..2.66...2..4....8...9..8..1.6.5...6.....7.......4..........6...18.2 10.9 1.2 1.2 69047 97688 6628 4182 ..3.56....5.1..2.6....2..4...68...9..8..1.6.5...6.....7.......4..........6...18.2 10.9 1.2 1.2 69047 97688 6602 4877 ..3.....945...92....9..3.54....6....6..9..8....5..8.2..1.7................4..5.92 10.2 10.2 9.5 38405 1758 6374 4140 .....6..9..67...3.79...3....1...7.5...752......5.....2..167..2......14..8........ 10.2 10.2 2.6 63468 4946 6344 4397 ..34.........8..36..8...1.4.4..6..73...9..........2..5..4.7..686........7.....5.. 11.0 1.2 1.2 95358 98816 6338 4433 ...4......5..8.2.6.....71..2........3.....51...5.3.8.25...6.3.8..6..8.9...8...... 10.7 10.7 2.6 97677 98790 6069 4284 .2.4...8......9..2..9.3............5..8..7....4.5..82...46..21.6.21..4...1......8 10.4 10.4 9.4 95596 97645 6067 4552 ........9.5.7...2.7.9..2....1.67..5.......4..8....5....7.31....6....7.3..3..6...1 10.2 1.2 1.2 9037 26212 5995 4032 ....5.7..4.7..9.3..8....1..2.8..7.....4..8....7..9...3......6...4...2.97..2.....1 10.4 1.2 1.2 77612 42046 5973 4360 .2.4.6..9..7......6...2..5......15...1.64...28......1..3.26.....6..1...39....3... 10.2 1.2 1.2 95257 41099 5812 4278 1....67.9.5.........9.....4....9..3.....1....9..6..8.1..27.....7..8...4.8...6.1.7 10.4 10.4 2.6 21741 95184 5778 4081 .2..5...9...7.....7.....5..2..........4..8....6..2..91.3.2..9..6...9..13..1.6..2. 10.4 1.2 1.2 51889 95234 5708 4095 .......8...67......8...36.5.4..3..5......4..66....83.4..1.9..2..3...25..9........ 10.2 1.2 1.2 64720 23051

Coloin

Code: Select all: 9456 4909 ..3.9....4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9..........2.....4.7..686........7.....5.4 10.4 10.4 2.6 95298 50600 8900 4556 ..3.9....4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9..........2.....4.7..686........7.....54. 10.4 10.4 2.6 95274 69328 8649 3845 ..39.....4...8..36..8...1...4..6..738......1......2.....4.7..686........7.....5.. 11.0 11.0 2.6 46938 95442 8538 4092 ..3......4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9..........2.....4.7..686........7..6..59. 10.8 10.8 2.6 36455 95608 8399 4167 ..39.....4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...3...1......2.....4.7..686........7.....5.. 10.9 10.9 2.6 55568 97517 8342 3752 ..3.9....4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9....1.....2.....4.7..686........7.....5.. 10.3 10.3 2.6 95217 74239 8168 4488 ..3......4...8..36..83..1...4..6..73...9..........2.....4.7..686........7.....59. 10.8 10.8 2.6 49382 95472 8065 3924 ..3......4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9..........7..5..4.7..686....2...7.....5.. 10.9 10.9 2.6 95174 96815 7849 3471 ..3.2....4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9....1.....2.....4.7..686........7.....5.. 10.4 10.4 2.6 95224 74804 7607 3356 ..3......4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9..........2.....4.7..686...2....7..6..5.. 10.4 10.4 2.6 95122 37130 7522 3782 ..3......4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9..........4..5..4.7..686....2...7.....5.. 11.1 11.1 2.6 96569 98832 7506 2900 ..3..2...4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9.......6........4.7..686........7.....59. 10.9 1.2 1.2 95184 78304 7443 4799 ..3.9....4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9..........2.....4.7..686........7..6..5.. 10.4 10.4 2.6 95098 50898 7392 3990 ..3......4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9...1......2.....4.7..686....4...7.....5.. 10.9 10.9 2.6 97628 98508 7273 3943 ..34.....4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9..........2.....4.7..686........7.....59. 10.8 10.8 2.6 56053 96586 7256 4302 ..3..2...4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9..........4.....4.7..686........7.....59. 10.9 10.9 2.6 54251 85324 7227 3243 ..3.9....1...4..36..8..21...4..8..73...9................4.7..686........7.....5.4 9.7 9.7 2.6 13330 706 7069 2829 ..3......4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9.........42..5..4.7..686........7.....5.. 10.9 10.9 2.6 46041 97341 7034 3623 ..3.9....4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9..........2.....4.7..686..4.....7.....5.. 10.4 10.4 2.6 95264 94486 6997 2761 ..3......4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9........7.2..5..4.7..686........7.....5.. 10.8 10.8 2.6 14550 42333 6957 4279 ..3.9....4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9..........2.....4.7..686........7....65.. 10.4 10.4 2.6 95112 60280 6853 4096 ..3..61..4...8..36..89......4..6..73..............2..1..4.7..686........7.....5.. 10.9 1.2 1.2 69049 97687

by **ttt** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:40 pm

eleven wrote:So these are the puzzles with suexrat9 > 6800 and/or suexratt > 4000 (both limits higher than the current top puzzles) with ED,q1,q2:
eleven
Code: Select all
10378 5710 ..3......4...8..36..8...1...4..6..73...9..........2..5..4.7..686........7..6..5.. 11.0 11.0 2.6 95078 98434 Coloin

Code: Select all: *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------* | 1259 125679 3 | 12457 12459 145679 | 24789 24589 2479 | | 4 12579 12579 | 1257 8 1579 | 279 3 6 | | 259 25679 8 | 23457 23459 345679 | 1 2459 2479 | |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------| | 12589 4 1259 | 158 6 158 | 289 7 3 | | 12358 12357 12567 | 9 1345 134578 | 2468 1248 124 | | 1389 1379 1679 | 13478 134 2 | 4689 1489 5 | |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------| | 12359 12359 4 | 1235 7 1359 | 239 6 8 | | 6 123589 1259 | 123458 123459 134589 | 23479 1249 12479 | | 7 12389 129 | 6 12349 13489 | 5 1249 1249 | *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Just checked for the first one: double BB parttern (1259)r13c1/r89c3 => r2c3=7 & r7c1=3

ttt

by **eleven** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:02 pm

Nice. Would you post your deduction also, please ?

by **ttt** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:59 am

eleven wrote:Nice. Would you post your deduction also, please ?

Code: Select all: *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------* | 1259 125679 3 | 12457 12459 145679 | 24789 24589 2479 | | 4 12579 12579 | 1257 8 1579 | 279 3 6 | | 259 25679 8 | 23457 23459 345679 | 1 2459 2479 | |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------| | 12589 4 1259 | 158 6 158 | 289 7 3 | | 12358 12357 12567 | 9 1345 134578 | 2468 1248 124 | | 1389 1379 1679 | 13478 134 2 | 4689 1489 5 | |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------| | 12359 12359 4 | 1235 7 1359 | 239 6 8 | | 6 123589 1259 | 123458 123459 134589 | 23479 1249 12479 | | 7 12389 129 | 6 12349 13489 | 5 1249 1249 | *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Code: Select all: 1 1 . 1 1 1 . . . . 1B 1 1 . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . 1A . 1 1 . 1 . . . 1 1 1 . 1 1 . 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 . . 1 . 1 1 . 1 . 1 . . . . 1 1T 1 1 1 . 1 1 . 1 1T . 1 1 . 1 1

A short explanation about BB pattern (1259)r89c3 for above puzzle:
- Look at candidates 1â€™s as above: if T=1 AND A&B<>1 => no 1â€™s on R7 or B9 => if T=1 then A or B must contain candidate 1â€™s. The same for candidates 2â€™s, 5â€™s, 9â€™s => Any extra candidates at A and B can be eliminated => r2c2<>7, r4c1<>8
Now, back to the puzzle then see that T must be one of (1,2), (1,5), (1,9), (2,5), (2,9), (5,9):
- If T=(1,2) => (A=1 AND B=2) OR (A=2 AND B=1) => r13c1=59 => r2c3 & r7c1<>1259, r2c3=7, r7c1=3
The same result for other cases T=(1,5), (1,9)â€¦

Conclusion: r2c3=7, r7c1=3
Iâ€™m sorry by my poor English...,
Hope you can understand what I explained (that took me very long time than solving the puzzle

).

ttt

by **eleven** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:37 pm

Thanks for the explanation. I start to understand this pattern without ever having read the article

This is my alternative illustration:

For each of the 4 numbers we have a potential impossible pattern, XY for 15, XZ for 2, YZ for 9. So one of the starred cells (guardians) must hold each number to prevent that. But this implies, that none of the 4 numbers can be both in r13c1 and in r89c3, i.e. the #-cells must have all of them - and you can eliminate them in r123c3 and r789c1.

Code: Select all: *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------* |#1259 1259 | 125 1259 159 | 29 259 29 | | *1259 *1259 |X125 Y159 |Z29 | |#259 259 | 25 259 59 | 1 259 29 | |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------| |*1259 *1259 |X15 Y15 |Z29 | | 125 125 125 | 9 15 15 | 2 12 12 | | 19 19 19 | 1 1 2 | 9 19 5 | |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------| |*1259 *1259 |X125 Y159 |Z29 | | 1259 #1259 | 125 1259 159 | 29 129 129 | | 129 #129 | 129 19 | 5 129 129 | *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*

[Added:]The first 3 puzzles in my "eleven" list and many in the "coloin" list can be solved this way.

by **coloin** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:25 pm

Thanks eleven - there is no problem with the attribution of all your and subsequently trivially produced puzzles.
but thanks for he name ! I think I found a higher suexrat9 value - will update it !

Indeed the clue distribution may well be the key to suexrats apparent over rating. The 3 clues of the same value in a shute is a prominent feature.

I just wonder if we can tweak suexrat9 furthur.

dukuso helped by giving us the xxx 2 function in suexratt - this gave us the "node" count for the easiest 2 % of tries. The higher the relative ratio suexratt/suexrat9 - tends to indicate harder puzzles.

The way that suexrat9 locates the paired loci is unclear to me but if we can understand the apparent over- rating - we might be able to improve on suexratt. The discrepancy between isomorphic puzzles was never addressed - and perhaps didnt need to be.

What might be interesting is the lowest node count out of 1000 tries say.
I hope i'm not being over simplistic !
Does this indicate the easiest way for the program to guess/solve the puzzle ?

C

by **eleven** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:04 pm

For me the basic problem is, that suexrat is a pure machine rating, having not implemented any sudoku solution techniques but singles. So there seems to be a quite good correlation to singles chain ratings, but the more other techniques can crack a puzzle, the higher is the chance, that suexrat overrates.

Now many of these puzzles in the lists above can "easily" be solved over BB patterns. I just checked the next one. Same solution:

Code: Select all: +----------------------------+----------------------------+----------------------------+ | 16789 1236789 12379 | 4 1259 123569 | 1579 3578 1379 | | 1479 5 13479 | 139 8 139 | 2 347 6 | | 14689 1234689 12349 | 123569 1259 7 | 1459 3458 1349 | +----------------------------+----------------------------+----------------------------+ | 2 16789 #179 | 156789 4 15689 | 5679 3567 379 | | 3 46789 #479 | 256789 2579 25689 | 45679 1 479 | | 14679 14679 5 | 1679 3 169 | 8 467 2 | +----------------------------+----------------------------+----------------------------+ | 5 12479 12479 | 1279 6 1249 | 3 247 8 | |#147 12347 6 | 12378 127 12348 | 147 9 5 | |#1479 123479 8 | 123579 12579 123459 | 1467 2467 147 | +----------------------------+----------------------------+----------------------------+

You can use the impossible patterns in r267c46 for 1, r26c8 for 4, r267c48 for 7, r267c46 for 9. [corrected typos, but nobody noticed it anyway]

So nr 5 in my list is the first one, where a solution cannot be found quickly this way (the BB pattern 2379 in r12c7/r79c9 is useless for me - [edit] ok it places 7 in r1c7, but thats harder to see and does not solve it).

by **eleven** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:52 pm

q1 99495, q2 99587, ED 10.8/10.8/3.4

Code: Select all: +-------+-------+-------+ | 1 2 . | 3 . . | . . . | | 3 4 . | . . . | 1 . . | | . . 5 | . . . | . . . | +-------+-------+-------+ | 6 . 2 | 4 . . | 5 . . | | . . . | . 6 . | . 7 . | | . . . | . . 8 | . . 6 | +-------+-------+-------+ | . . 4 | 2 . . | 3 . . | | . . . | . 7 . | . . 9 | | . . . | . . 9 | . 8 . | +-------+-------+-------+ Catboat

A grid with only 1 strong link (ER 10.1)

Code: Select all: +-------+-------+-------+ | 1 2 . | 3 . . | 4 . . | | 5 . . | . 1 . | . . 3 | | . . 3 | . . 6 | . . . | +-------+-------+-------+ | 7 . . | . . 8 | 9 . . | | . . 2 | 5 . . | . . 4 | | . . . | . . . | . . . | +-------+-------+-------+ | . . 1 | 6 . . | . 4 . | | . . . | . 9 . | 8 . . | | . 9 . | . . 4 | . 7 . | +-------+-------+-------+ *------------------------------------------------------------------------* | 1 2 6789 | 3 578 579 | 4 5689 5678 | | 5 4678 46789 | 24789 1 279 | 267 2689 3 | | 489 478 3 | 24789 24578 6 | 1257 12589 12578 | |-----------------------+----------------------+-------------------------| | 7 13456 456 | 124 2346 8 | 9 12356 1256 | | 3689 1368 2 | 5 367 1379 | 1367 1368 4 | | 34689 134568 45689 | 12479 23467 12379 | 123567 123568 125678 | |-----------------------+----------------------+-------------------------| | 238 3578 1 | 6 23578 2357 | 235 4 9 | | 2346 34567 4567 | 127 9 12357 | 8 12356 1256 | | 2368 9 568 | 128 2358 4 | 12356 7 1256 | *------------------------------------------------------------------------*

by **eleven** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:38 pm

q1 99529, q2 99578, ED 10.4/10.4/10.0

Code: Select all: +-------+-------+-------+ | 1 2 . | 4 . . | 3 . . | | 3 . . | . 1 . | . 5 . | | . . 6 | . . . | 1 . . | +-------+-------+-------+ | 7 . . | . 9 . | . . . | | . 4 . | 6 . 3 | . . . | | . . 3 | . . 2 | . . . | +-------+-------+-------+ | 5 . . | . 8 . | 7 . . | | . . 7 | . . . | . . 5 | | . . . | . . . | . 9 8 | +-------+-------+-------+ Discrepancy

[Added:] Compare: ER 10.4, q1 17445, q2 147 (!)

Code: Select all: +-------+-------+-------+ | 1 2 . | . . . | . . . | | 3 . . | 4 . . | . . . | | . . 5 | . 3 6 | 7 . . | +-------+-------+-------+ | . . 2 | . . . | . 6 . | | . . 8 | . 6 5 | . . 7 | | . . . | 7 . . | . 8 . | +-------+-------+-------+ | . . 3 | . 5 8 | . 7 . | | . . . | 9 . . | . . 3 | | . . . | . . . | . . 5 | +-------+-------+-------+

by **eleven** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:57 pm

My list of currently 4151 puzzles with ER 11+
can be downloaded at
https://sites.google.com/site/sudoeleven/elevens_ER11%2B.zip?attredirects=0
(including a few new 11.8's).

[Edit:]

this link

by **Mauricio** » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:53 pm

eleven wrote:My list of currently 4151puzzles with ER 11+ can be downloaded here (including a few new 11.8's).

According to my program, there are only 4093 unique sudokus in that list, for instance, puzzles #3853, #3854 and #3855 are the same.

by **eleven** » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:17 pm

Yes, sorry for that. I was sloppy, when i put the list together.
On the other hand some of my early puzzles (also with high rating) are missing.
I will post a corrected list in the next weeks, at the latest when champagne comes back.

Thanks for being so careful to check the list for duplicates.
I did not know, if there was any interest for it.

by **eleven** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:27 pm

Now i made a new list with 4506 ER 11+ puzzles, hopefully all minimal and without duplicates. It can be downloaded here.
To my knowledge together with the puzzles in champagne's list here these are all ER 11.x puzzles, which have been published.
If someone knows about others, a link would be fine.

A few new puzzles for the suexrat rating, which i had not posted yet:

Code: Select all: 1...5......7..9.3...9..754...4..3.7..6........9.8........79..2......24.3..2...... 9924 6480 .23.....94.....1...9..3..4.2..81...4.....78..9...4...23...9...1.6..........5..... 8433 5517 1..4.6..........2..8..3.5.6.6...48.5............5..2.......3.9...7..8....4.6..3.8 8096 4859 ..3.5.....567....27..2...4......18..3...2...66...7...453..4...7.......9.......4.. 7712 4114 ...4.67....7.....6....7..512......9...5.6.1...91.426..3...........8.......4.1.5.. 7442 4377 1..4....9.56..9.......1..6..6....8..5....4.9.9....5.1..7....2..6....1.5....3..... 7141 5356 1.....7....6.8.1...89.....6.....4.5.6..59...19...1...8..2.........3.....8...6...7 7067 5315 1.....78...6.8.1....9.....6.....4.5.6..59...19...1...8..2.........3.....8...6...7 7046 5297

In sum i have checked more than 10 mio "step 1" puzzles (puzzles, which are not solvable with cell forcing chains using basics+jellyfish) now, all of them could be solved with T&E(NS+HS,2) (level 2 nested singles contradiction chains).

by **Mauricio** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:56 pm

A couple of 11.3's
post63875.html#p63875
post64025.html#p64025

From patterns game 126, 3 puzzles
post204859.html#p204859

From patterns game 124, 3 puzzles
post204214.html#p204214

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