mith wrote:denis_berthier wrote:mith wrote:Indeed, these are two of the minimals from the 30c morph-dependent 11.9. The singles only get them to 29c though, whereas the other two minimals get back to 30c (and this is presumably why they are in T&E(2) - that 30th digit in the others takes at least two 11.8 steps, it's not trivial!)
Applying isomorphisms or Singles can't change the T&E(n) classification of a puzzle.
I understand that. The point is that the two puzzles you mentioned are morphs of each other after singles, but the other two puzzles *aren't* - they have an extra digit. All four are minimals of the same 30c puzzle, but the first two only get to 29c with singles - that 30th digit is the difference.
All four can be made 11.9 with the right morph, but only the first two are not in T&E(2).
denis_berthier's pencilmark grids indicate that the sticking point after t&e(2) has 31 clues, not 29 or 30. the extra 2 clues are 3r1c1, which mith you indicated is the 30th clue in your pencilmark grid in an earlier post, and an extra clue 6r5c9. in particular, this means that the 30th digit is included before the t&e(2) sticking point, which means i now have no idea why two of the puzzles would be in t&e(2) and two aren't
the 31st digit, 6r5c9, also raises another point: adding it to the puzzle gives a completed 6,8 UR in r45c59. if you were to swap the 6,8 UR around, you would get a puzzle that is NOT isomorphic to the original puzzle, but the pencilmark grids (ignoring the clues) are isomorphic, so any technique that removes a candidate from one puzzle will always remove the same candidate from the other puzzle (except for reverse bug-lites that rely on knowing what the original givens were, but they don't apply here).
here is the 31-clue state of the 11.9, that denis_berthier claims is not in t&e(2), in one-line format:
3.......1.....2.......3..458.6.......71.8...623..67..8.827.61..61..23...7.381.6..
that has to mean that this puzzle is not isomorphic, and would also not be in t&e(2) - can someone check this?
3.......1.....2.......3..458.6.......71.6...823..87..6.827.61..61..23...7.381.6..
is the second puzzle, or any of its minimal versions, in one or both of mith's lists of 11.8's? also what's its SE rating? i checked with skfr that the additional clue 6r5c9 reduces its skfr from 11.7 to 11.6 so it's unlikely that it is SE 11.9 but i don't have time to check it right now
edit: as champagne noted, adding the trivalue oddagon reduces the difficulty to human-solvable, so i'll try to find a manual solution and will post it as a puzzle in the puzzles forum if i do
