Having searched the Forums and found no reference to Tabletop Sudoku, I trust that I'm therefore not "re-inventing the wheel" here.
Taking advantage of pleasantly improving weather yesterday afternoon, after an autumnally stormy 24 hours on the southern UK coast, my wife and I and young daughter went to sample the genteel pleasures of Sidmouth. Wandering down the high street I found Tabletop Sudoku (not another dubious board game thank goodness) on sale in Clinton Cards, of all places.
Since I was told, as I bought a set, that they were "absolutely flying away" and had "only been instore for about a week", it seemed likely that many, if not the majority of, UK members may well not yet know of their existence. Equally possible, they may well also be on sale outside the UK.
Attractively packaged, apart from the almost obligatory mis-spelling of Suduko (sic) in one place, measuring 20cm x 20cm and retailing at £12.99, you could say that in some ways they resemble a largeish "pocket" chess set. The raised board with an inbuilt grid takes hand-friendly numbered "tiles" and a large quantity of printed clue sets is supplied (not particularly difficult to solve) and stored in a pull-out tray beneath the grid, allowing the top one at any time to be viewed and used. However, a "wipe clean" blank clue sheet additionally permits the solving of sudoku from eg newspapers or the net.
All in all, a nice piece of kit and I have since bought another set (probably a later production run because the mis-spelling had been corrected), as a Christmas present for someone, from another branch of Clinton Cards so perhaps they are the only or main UK distributor. The wording on the box gives due credit to Wayne and shows the originator as:- Only 4 U Ltd, Middlesex UB2 5YG.
As for "marks out of 10", I would say "8", the markdown being primarily the absence of any built-in storage for the 81 tiles (any thoughts please Wayne if you had any input to the design?) but also an imperfection in the cutting out of one of the grid squares in my set.
To get round the tile storage problem, without resorting to press-ganging a separate box or bag, I removed 20 of the plentiful supply of printed clue sheets from the tray, and then placed the remainder on top of the single "wipe clean" sheet, with this itself placed on top of the tiles (they being placed in an even distribution on the tray and alternately the right way up and upside down so that they could all fit in) before closing the tray. Sounds like "Alice in Wonderland" but the how and why are obvious when you have the set in front of you. You then have the problem of the 20 loose sheets, for what that's worth, but losing one of these would be far less likely than, and infinitely preferable to, losing one or more of the tiles.
As for the wipe clean sheet itself and its designated use for "external" puzzles, far better in my view to ignore it and instead simply to place clue tiles by direct reference to the puzzle in the newspaper etc. Also, the packaging shows the clue sheet cells minus tiles, whereas far better in my view again to place clue tiles in them (again obvious with a set in front of you).
Other user evaluations will be interesting, if and when members find and buy sets.
Tabletop Sudoku
34 posts
• Page 1 of 3 • 1, 2, 3
by 9X9 » Sun Nov 06, 2005 2:04 pm
em - more thoughts, as promised above, incorporating answers to yours.
Having now had more time to try "TS" out, I'm raising the rating from 8/10 to 9/10 (just the storage drawback but which I've solved as I said) and I have to say that, for me, it's the perfect way to play sudoku (GOTO www.only4ultd.co.uk for the supplier).
The set is in plastic, so "what you see is what you get", but the silver and black colouring dispels any undue notion of cheapness. The board is like the base of a pyramid and, with all the pieces in place (they are called tiles but this is a misnomer since they are more like pyramidic chess pawns with a numbered mortar-board on top), is elegantly pleasing. The pieces actually fit into the board for stability unlike chess and are pleasantly tactile to handle. There is no faffing about with pen and paper because a modicum of ingenuity (I blush modestly but details here if requested) permits all the necessary marking up via special placement of the relevant pieces (thus far the printed clues have required no more than naked subsets and locked cells).
My staple sudoku diet in recent times has been Pappocom Very Hards and I have never failed to solve any of the 50 or so that I have now done. However, the price to be paid for the satisfaction is the sheer tedium of careful candidate marking-up (I know I can "computerise" it but I want to climb Snowdon under my own steam not that of the mountain railway) and then the search (often many times over) through the haystack for the needle, which you know is there somewhere. Joy is unbounded if an X-wing is found, with its promise of relief from the boredom of checking for hidden subsets!
When all is said and done, the "Hardness" or "Very Hardness" is nothing really to do with logic which, after all, is nothing more in sudoku terms than spending some time assimilating say angusj.com, before then routinely applying this knowledge. The degree of difficulty is actually the extent to which concentration, determination and patience are required. So, heresy it may seem but sudoku does have a very strong element of "done one done them all" in it.
But, all that said, there is no denying the pleasure that can be derived from playing and it is then just a case of finding the right combination of "difficulty" level and mode of play, the personal balance point beyond which the displeasure begins to outweigh the pleasure.
For me, TS is a delight both to look at and to use and is very definitely the answer. Hence, the computer program will normally now only be used as an alternative way of generating puzzles to be played on the board. Which means, in turn, that it would be useful if someone could tell me which Pappocom level is the highest before hidden subsets are a feature?
Having now had more time to try "TS" out, I'm raising the rating from 8/10 to 9/10 (just the storage drawback but which I've solved as I said) and I have to say that, for me, it's the perfect way to play sudoku (GOTO www.only4ultd.co.uk for the supplier).
The set is in plastic, so "what you see is what you get", but the silver and black colouring dispels any undue notion of cheapness. The board is like the base of a pyramid and, with all the pieces in place (they are called tiles but this is a misnomer since they are more like pyramidic chess pawns with a numbered mortar-board on top), is elegantly pleasing. The pieces actually fit into the board for stability unlike chess and are pleasantly tactile to handle. There is no faffing about with pen and paper because a modicum of ingenuity (I blush modestly but details here if requested) permits all the necessary marking up via special placement of the relevant pieces (thus far the printed clues have required no more than naked subsets and locked cells).
My staple sudoku diet in recent times has been Pappocom Very Hards and I have never failed to solve any of the 50 or so that I have now done. However, the price to be paid for the satisfaction is the sheer tedium of careful candidate marking-up (I know I can "computerise" it but I want to climb Snowdon under my own steam not that of the mountain railway) and then the search (often many times over) through the haystack for the needle, which you know is there somewhere. Joy is unbounded if an X-wing is found, with its promise of relief from the boredom of checking for hidden subsets!
When all is said and done, the "Hardness" or "Very Hardness" is nothing really to do with logic which, after all, is nothing more in sudoku terms than spending some time assimilating say angusj.com, before then routinely applying this knowledge. The degree of difficulty is actually the extent to which concentration, determination and patience are required. So, heresy it may seem but sudoku does have a very strong element of "done one done them all" in it.
But, all that said, there is no denying the pleasure that can be derived from playing and it is then just a case of finding the right combination of "difficulty" level and mode of play, the personal balance point beyond which the displeasure begins to outweigh the pleasure.
For me, TS is a delight both to look at and to use and is very definitely the answer. Hence, the computer program will normally now only be used as an alternative way of generating puzzles to be played on the board. Which means, in turn, that it would be useful if someone could tell me which Pappocom level is the highest before hidden subsets are a feature?
- 9X9
- Posts: 100
- Joined: 26 September 2005
by Pi » Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:25 pm
I do like pen and paper yes, that's why i want a game with writing rather than placing tiles or typing. It would just be good to have a wipe clean board and to have lot's of these would be wasefull. So just hvae one with thousands of puzzles in it
- Pi
- Posts: 389
- Joined: 27 May 2005
SoDoKu - Battle Lines
by FoxHatzi » Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:54 am
If you enjoy sudoku that much, I would highly recomend SuDoKu - Battle Lines. (www.ratkins.com)
This is a multiplayer, combatative stradegy game based on the sudoku rules.
Players take turns in either taking territory on the board or blocking opponent placements. A really "nasty" fun game.
This is a multiplayer, combatative stradegy game based on the sudoku rules.
Players take turns in either taking territory on the board or blocking opponent placements. A really "nasty" fun game.
- FoxHatzi
- Posts: 7
- Joined: 07 September 2005
by 9X9 » Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:22 pm
Taking forward the point about my delight that there need be "no faffing about with pen and paper" when playing the tabletop version of sudoku, another of my High Street wanderings yesterday saw me coming across for the first time, and buying, Wayne's handsome hardback book "The Times Ultimate Su Doku" (ISBN 0-00-722057-X).
I would like to see his last words in the introductory solving guide etched into every sudoku player's brain; "If, in time, you can shake yourself free of written pencilmarks, you will see the Sudoku puzzle for what it is - a thing of beauty! Epiphany beckons." (my emboldment)
Them's my sentiments entirely.
I would like to see his last words in the introductory solving guide etched into every sudoku player's brain; "If, in time, you can shake yourself free of written pencilmarks, you will see the Sudoku puzzle for what it is - a thing of beauty! Epiphany beckons." (my emboldment)
Them's my sentiments entirely.
- 9X9
- Posts: 100
- Joined: 26 September 2005
by lunababy_moonchild » Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:58 pm
I saw the Table Top Sudoku last week and had a look at it but did not buy, so have been following this thread with interest.
Further to
I have always thought that it was a thing of beauty, even before I discovered pencil marks. I still do (which is why I still do them). Before I start each and every single one of them I take a few seconds to admire it before I start writing.
Good thread, thanks for starting it.
Luna
Further to
"If, in time, you can shake yourself free of written pencilmarks, you will see the Sudoku puzzle for what it is - a thing of beauty! Epiphany beckons."
I have always thought that it was a thing of beauty, even before I discovered pencil marks. I still do (which is why I still do them). Before I start each and every single one of them I take a few seconds to admire it before I start writing.
Good thread, thanks for starting it.
Luna
- lunababy_moonchild
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- Joined: 23 March 2005
by emm » Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:57 pm
lunababy_moonchild wrote:Before I start each and every single one of them I take a few seconds to admire it
Luna, I want to know how you admire your pencil marks before you write them!
Are you possibly admiring the promising potential of the pleasing prospect of the postulated position of the pencil on paper?
- emm
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- Joined: 02 July 2005
by Nick67 » Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:34 am
I would like to see his last words in the introductory solving guide etched into every sudoku player's brain; "If, in time, you can shake yourself free of written pencilmarks, you will see the Sudoku puzzle for what it is - a thing of beauty! Epiphany beckons."
Wow, I'm a little surprised to see this quote.
It's inspiring ... but how many people can do, say, a Pappocom V. Hard
without pencilmarks? (I hope the answer is not many ...
otherwise I am way behind the curve!)
- Nick67
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- Joined: 24 August 2007
by lunababy_moonchild » Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:03 am
em wrote:lunababy_moonchild wrote:Before I start each and every single one of them I take a few seconds to admire it
Luna, I want to know how you admire your pencil marks before you write them!
Are you possibly admiring the promising potential of the pleasing prospect of the postulated position of the pencil on paper?
The puzzle, I admire the puzzle
. Then I salivate at the prospect of not putting pencil marks in, convinced that this time I won't need them (since I have been reduced to doing easy puzzles for a variety of different reasons that I won't bore you with, I don't actually need them, so this is working very well indeed - compensation, if you will, for going back down to the most basic grade).Luna
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by 9X9 » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:12 pm
Nick - fear not, I'm sure you are as "on the curve" as the next person.
If I quote the full paragraph, it will give you a better feel for the context:-
"This may sound confusing, and perhaps it is, but I guess it's part of what makes Fiendish (Pappocom Hard ... 9X9) puzzles fiendish! And it also illustrates the fact that too many pencilmarks can be a bad thing. If you are writing too many pencilmarks, it means you are not understanding how the puzzle works. You may be relying too much on mechanical procedures, without appreciating the underlying logic. If, in time, you can shake yourself free of written pencilmarks, you will see the Sudoku puzzle for what it is - a thing of beauty! Epiphany beckons."
So, carry on doing what feels good for you.
Me, I'm not into self-flagellation. Hence, I have progressively developed an aversion to any form of sudoku "side-scribbling" and now I can avoid this, with the added aesthetic, tactile and spatial pleasures, by playing Tabletop Sudoku, at the admittedly non-fiendish but nevertheless acceptably testing level of the 50 puzzles supplied with it (it sounds as if Luna may be doing something similar, albeit for a different reason).
The choice being beauty or the beast, give me beauty every time.
If I quote the full paragraph, it will give you a better feel for the context:-
"This may sound confusing, and perhaps it is, but I guess it's part of what makes Fiendish (Pappocom Hard ... 9X9) puzzles fiendish! And it also illustrates the fact that too many pencilmarks can be a bad thing. If you are writing too many pencilmarks, it means you are not understanding how the puzzle works. You may be relying too much on mechanical procedures, without appreciating the underlying logic. If, in time, you can shake yourself free of written pencilmarks, you will see the Sudoku puzzle for what it is - a thing of beauty! Epiphany beckons."
So, carry on doing what feels good for you.
Me, I'm not into self-flagellation. Hence, I have progressively developed an aversion to any form of sudoku "side-scribbling" and now I can avoid this, with the added aesthetic, tactile and spatial pleasures, by playing Tabletop Sudoku, at the admittedly non-fiendish but nevertheless acceptably testing level of the 50 puzzles supplied with it (it sounds as if Luna may be doing something similar, albeit for a different reason).
The choice being beauty or the beast, give me beauty every time.
- 9X9
- Posts: 100
- Joined: 26 September 2005
34 posts
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