The New Sudoku Players' Forum

by **gsf** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:56 pm

RW wrote:
gsf wrote:I stopped looking (well my solver stopped looking) when every submission was countered by "technique X is really UR type Y".

I'm sorry gsf if that is the impression you got.

nothing to be sorry about
if my solver coded all UR/BUG it could mimic your manual solving
but it doesn't so for me the impression is an expected fact
since many (but not all) puzzles with UR/BUG solutions also have xy-cycle solutions

In the superior thread tarek wrote:I was thinking of something which is tougher actually, fish & quads however they should be consistant even against the mights of unique rectangles,xy wings & colouring/finned xwing.....

RW wrote:Is there any such consistancy restrictions in this thread? Just wondering because I'm trying to create a superior+ puzzle myself (but it seems to be very hard...).

does manual solving expose any UR/BUGs in this list?

by **fermat** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:22 pm

Here is one with a quad.

Code: Select all: 6 . . | 8 . . | . . 7 . . 1 | . . 7 | 4 . . . 2 . | . 3 . | . 6 . --------------------- . 1 . | . 8 . | . 2 . . . . | . . . | . . . . 7 . | . 1 . | . 3 . --------------------- . 8 . | . 9 . | . 7 . . . 9 | 6 . . | 5 . . 1 . . | . . 2 | . . 3

by **fermat** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:29 pm

ab wrote:the only requirement for this thread is that the puzzles are solved by hidden and naked sets, locked candidates, x wings, swordfish and jellyfish .....

Will you accept finned swordfish ?

by ab » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:36 pm

fermat wrote:here's one with a quad

it may have a quad in it, but it can be solved with locked candidates and pairs.

fermat wrote:Will you accept finned swordfish ?

take your finned swordfish to the effortless extremes thread and you'll be welcomed with open arms

by **fermat** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:43 pm

ab wrote:take your finned swordfish to the effortless extremes thread and you'll be welcomed with open arms

You would think so. This thread doesn't mind if other methods solve the puzzle. I like this one much better, I'll save my fishy.

by **fermat** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:58 pm

I'll keep trying.

Code: Select all: . . . | . . 8 | 9 . . . . . | . 9 . | . 2 . . . . | 2 . . | 6 . 1 --------------------- . . 5 | 6 . 3 | . . 8 . 1 . | . 2 . | . 9 . 2 . . | 4 . 9 | 3 . . --------------------- 8 . 7 | . . 6 | . . . . 2 . | . 3 . | . . . . . 3 | 8 . . | . . .

This one is not an effortless, many techniques work and eliminate others.
I think that the swordfish usually is a factor. :?:

by **fermat** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:41 pm

Wow. I just went through my 500 or so puzzles that I have made.

The one just posted is the only one that could be valid.

This category is much harder than I thought.

Swordfish and quads are quite rare.

by **Ocean** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:37 pm

gsf wrote:since many (but not all) puzzles with UR/BUG solutions also have xy-cycle solutions
In the superior thread tarek wrote:I was thinking of something which is tougher actually, fish & quads however they should be consistant even against the mights of unique rectangles,xy wings & colouring/finned xwing.....

RW wrote:Is there any such consistancy restrictions in this thread? Just wondering because I'm trying to create a superior+ puzzle myself (but it seems to be very hard...).

does manual solving expose any UR/BUGs in this list?

I tried to find alternative 'bypassing techniques' at the step where the 'Superior Plus' technique is used, for some of the puzzles. Here a few examples:

Code: Select all: #7 (gsf) @55 *-----------------------------------------------------------* | 124 157 8 |X13 6 1235 |U179 14 U19 | | 124 6 27 | 9 8 12 | 5 147 3 | | 3 15 9 | 4 7 15 | 2 8 6 | |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------| | 6 37 4 | 8 Y13 9 | 17 2 5 | | 8 2 1 | 7 5 6 | 3 9 4 | | 5 9 37 | 2 4 X13 | 6 Y17 8 | |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------| | 7 8 5 | 6 2 4 |U19 3 U19 | | 12 13 23 | 5 9 8 | 4 6 7 | | 9 4 6 |Y13 X13 7 | 8 5 2 | *-----------------------------------------------------------* The conjugate chain (x-cycle) is labeled X/Y. The UR type 1 rectangle is labeled U.

A. Jellyfish: Eliminates '1' from r1c1, r1c2, r1c6, r1c8. [Rest is Hidden Pair + Singles]
B. Coloring (x-cycle): Eliminates '1' from r1c8. [Needs 'only X-Wing' after that]
C. UR type 1: Eliminates '1' and '9' from r1c7 [The rest is solved with 'Singles'.]
D. UR type 4: Eliminates '1' from r1c2 and r1c6. [But this does not solve the puzzle.]

Code: Select all: #13 (mine) @38 *--------------------------------------------------------------------* | 4 1 2 | 5 9 7 | 8 6 3 | | 68 369 3689 | 134 2 134 | 7 19 5 | | 7 5 39 | 6 8 13 | 4 19 2 | |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------| | 168 3467 3468 | 1238 456 12368 | 9 345 67 | | 9 2 346 | 37 4567 #36 |-35 8 1 | | 18 3467 5 | 189 #46 189 | 2 #34 67 | |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------| | 2 89 1 | 89 67 5 | 36 37 4 | | 3 469 469 | 2479 1 2469 | 56 57 8 | | 5 468 7 | 48 3 468 | 1 2 9 | *--------------------------------------------------------------------* The XY-wing is marked with #

A. Hidden Quad: Eliminates '3' from r4c4 and r4c6, and '6' from r4c6.
B. XY-Wing: Eliminates '3' from r5c7 (rest is solved with 'Singles').
C. UR type 4: Eliminates '6' from r4c2 and r6c2 (but does not help solving the puzzle).

Code: Select all: #21 (mine) @45 *-----------------------------------------------------------* | 3 4 #67 | 6-78 5 #78 | 1 2 9 | | 8 #79 5 | 279 1 279 | 3 4 6 | | 1 #69 2 | 469 46 3 | 8 7 5 | |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------| | 2 56 689 | 3 789 4 | 5679 568 1 | | 7 1 689 | 25 89 25 | 69 3 4 | | 45 3 489 | 1 789 6 | 579 58 2 | |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------| | 45 8 3 | 4569 46 1 | 2 569 7 | | 6 2 1 | 579 3 579 | 4 59 8 | | 9 #57 47 | 4568 2 #58 |-56 1 3 | *-----------------------------------------------------------*

Bypassing the Swordfish: XY-ring (Eliminates '7' from r1c4 and '5' from r9c7).

Code: Select all: #22 (gsf) @35 *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------* | 8 459 3 | 1569 2 1456 | 7 46 145 | | 1 245 6 | 7 8 45 | 9 234 2345 | | 7 2459 245 | 1569 459 3 | 2458 2468 12458 | |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------| | 6 123458 12458 | 12359 3459 1245 | 248 7 248 | |#25 7 *24-5 | 8 6 #245 | 3 1 9 | | 9 12348 1248 | 123 #34 7 | 248 5 6 | |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------| |#25 12568 1258 | 2356 #35 9 | 2458 2348 7 | | 3 2568 9 | 4 7 2568 | 1 28 258 | | 4 258 7 | 235 1 258 | 6 9 2358 | *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Nice loop can eliminate '5' from r5c3, after which Jellyfish is not needed (then 'only Swordfish' is required).

by **Ocean** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:05 pm

If symmetry were not an issue, there are four Superior Plus puzzles in gfroyle's list of 17s, as far as I could find:

#
050400000000030800000000001300080700060000050000200000000506040108000300000000000
700000100000300000000600000038000000000010200006000050010000460200070000000500030
701000000000060200000000080000301000200000060000700000680040000000100003050000700
800000100000300000000700000039000000000010200007000050010000470200080000000600030
#
Three Swordfish puzzles. One Naked Quad puzzle (with XY-Wing as alternative bypass).
#
Search tips: gsf's program with options 1. -qFNBTHW 2. -qFNBT3H3W2 and compare the output.

by RW » Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:02 pm

gsf wrote:does manual solving expose any UR/BUGs in this list?

I had a quick look, #7 solved with UR type 1 (as mentioned by Ocean), #17 and #19 solved with UR type 4. There was lots of other URs also, but none that directly solved the puzzle. I also solved a couple with more advanced uniqueness moves, example #14:

Code: Select all: *-----------------------------------------------------------* | 7 6 *358 |*1358 #58 134 | 458 9 2 | | 2 4 *358 |*358 9 7 | 58 1 6 | | 158 158 9 | 2 #458 6 | 3 7 #48 | |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------| | 4 58 6 | 9 1 2 | 7 38 358 | | 3 2 18 | 4 7 5 | 18 6 9 | | 15 9 7 | 6 3 8 | 2 4 15 | |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------| | 158 158 2 | 7 458 9 | 6 38 1348 | | 6 3 148 |#18 2 14 | 9 5 7 | | 9 7 1458 | 1358 6 134 | 148 2 18 | *-----------------------------------------------------------* r1c34=3 If r12c4=8 => r1c5=5 & r8c4=1 => r12c4=3 => r3c5=4 => r3c9=8 => r12c3=8 => r12c4<>8

[Edit: As udosuk pointed out, the move wasn't that simple. I edited the solution to be valid and as it is now I would probably ignore it as an alternative solution in the EE thread]

The puzzle is then solved with a x-wing. This is the kind of move that I don't expect any coded solver to pick up, but it's quite simple for the human eye. In the effortless thread I would probably discard a 10 node XY-chain with this alternative solution, but certainly not a XYZ-wing or finned swordfish. But on the other hand, I sometimes get the feeling that I'm the only one around here who picks up this kind of eliminations...

ab wrote:I still think you'll find it hard finding such puzzles, especially if you're making them by hand!

I couldn't agree more!!

RW

by ab » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:04 pm

fermat wrote:I'll keep trying.

Code: Select all
. . . | . . 8 | 9 . . . . . | . 9 . | . 2 . . . . | 2 . . | 6 . 1 --------------------- . . 5 | 6 . 3 | . . 8 . 1 . | . 2 . | . 9 . 2 . . | 4 . 9 | 3 . . --------------------- 8 . 7 | . . 6 | . . . . 2 . | . 3 . | . . . . . 3 | 8 . . | . . .

This one is not an effortless, many techniques work and eliminate others.
I think that the swordfish usually is a factor.

That's beyond the scope of this thread fermat. You've gone from one extreme to another.

You could use my software to decide if your puzzle qualifies:
http://uk.geocities.com/aidan_001/software.html

by **udosuk** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:32 am

RW wrote:
Code: Select all
*-----------------------------------------------------------* | 7 6 *358 |*1358 #58 134 | 458 9 2 | | 2 4 *358 |*358 9 7 | 58 1 6 | | 158 158 9 | 2 #458 6 | 3 7 #48 | |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------| | 4 58 6 | 9 1 2 | 7 38 358 | | 3 2 18 | 4 7 5 | 18 6 9 | | 15 9 7 | 6 3 8 | 2 4 15 | |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------| | 158 158 2 | 7 458 9 | 6 38 1348 | | 6 3 148 | 18 2 14 | 9 5 7 | | 9 7 1458 | 1358 6 134 | 148 2 18 | *-----------------------------------------------------------*

The 3s are strongly linked in r12c34...

Sorry to barge in, but I cannot see this directly...

I know it must be true, but just from that state of the grid how can we easily conclude that one of r12c4 must contain a 3? :?:

BTW I don't think finned swordfish is much harder than quads/jellyfish...

Code: Select all: . . . | . . 8 | 9 . . . . . | . 9 . | . 2 . . . . | 2 . . | 6 . 1 ------+-------+------ . . 5 | 6 . 3 | . . 8 . 1 . | . 2 . | . 9 . 2 . . | 4 . 9 | 3 . . ------+-------+------ 8 . 7 | . . 6 | . . . . 2 . | . 3 . | . . . . . 3 | 8 . . | . . . 17 45 2 | 137 6 8 | 9 45 37 6 8 14 |-357 9 -1457 | 57 2 347 *4579 3 49 | 2 #457 *457 | 6 8 1 -------------------+-------------------+----------------- 49 49 5 | 6 1 3 | 2 7 8 3 1 8 |*57 2 *57 | 4 9 6 2 7 6 | 4 8 9 | 3 1 5 -------------------+-------------------+----------------- 8 459 7 | 159 45 6 | 15 3 2 *459 2 149 |*579 3 *1457 | 8 6 479 1459 6 3 | 8 457 2 | 157 45 479

by **gsf** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:03 am

Ocean wrote:If symmetry were not an issue, there are four Superior Plus puzzles in gfroyle's list of 17s, as far as I could find:

Search tips: gsf's program with options 1. -qFNBTHW 2. -qFNBT3H3W2 and compare the output.
[/size]

I added technique ordering and filter expressions so this can be done with one run using:

Code: Select all: -q-XYG -e 'valid&&(H4||T4||W3||W4)'

which turns off X and Y cycles and guessing and (H4||T4||W3||W4) is the superior plus requirement almost verbatum
I'm running over gfroyle's 18s with (H4||T4||W4) (no swordfish) right now

by **gsf** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:22 am

here's an interesting pair
the first solves with one naked quad and naked/hidden singles
the second solves with one hidden quad and naked/hidden singles
the puzzles only differ in clue cells [19] and [64]

Code: Select all: 2 . . | . . 3 | 8 . . . . 8 | 2 . . | . . . 3 . . | 4 . . | 2 . 1 ------+-------+------ . 6 5 | . . . | . . 9 7 2 . | . . . | . . . . 3 . | 5 . . | 4 1 . ------+-------+------ . . . | . . 6 | . 9 . . . . | 9 1 5 | . . . . . . | . 7 . | 5 . 8 2 . . | . . 3 | 8 . 4 . . 8 | 2 . . | . . . 3 . . | 4 . . | 2 . 1 ------+-------+------ . 6 5 | . . . | . . 9 7 2 . | . . . | . . . . 3 . | . . . | 4 1 . ------+-------+------ . . . | . . 6 | . 9 . . . . | 9 1 5 | . . . . . . | . 7 . | 5 . 8

by RW » Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:25 am

udosuk wrote:I know it must be true, but just from that state of the grid how can we easily conclude that one of r12c4 must contain a 3?

Sorry, there was one thing that I saw when I solved it, but forgot to mention when I wrote the post as I tried to simplify the logic:

Code: Select all: *-----------------------------------------------------------* | 7 6 358 |*1358 #58 134 | 458 9 2 | | 2 4 358 |*358 9 7 | 58 1 6 | | 158 158 9 | 2 458 6 | 3 7 48 | |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------| | 4 58 6 | 9 1 2 | 7 38 358 | | 3 2 18 | 4 7 5 | 18 6 9 | | 15 9 7 | 6 3 8 | 2 4 15 | |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------| | 158 158 2 | 7 458 9 | 6 38 1348 | | 6 3 148 |#18 2 14 | 9 5 7 | | 9 7 1458 | 1358 6 134 | 148 2 18 | *-----------------------------------------------------------*

If r12c4=8 => r1c5=5 and r8c4=1 => r12c4=3

This indeed makes the move a bit more tricky and I would probably ignore it in the EE thread, unless the alternative technique is something really extreme.

RW

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