superior plus puzzles

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Postby gsf » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:56 pm

RW wrote:
gsf wrote:I stopped looking (well my solver stopped looking) when every submission was countered by "technique X is really UR type Y".


I'm sorry gsf if that is the impression you got.

nothing to be sorry about
if my solver coded all UR/BUG it could mimic your manual solving
but it doesn't so for me the impression is an expected fact
since many (but not all) puzzles with UR/BUG solutions also have xy-cycle solutions
In the superior thread tarek wrote:I was thinking of something which is tougher actually, fish & quads however they should be consistant even against the mights of unique rectangles,xy wings & colouring/finned xwing.....

RW wrote:Is there any such consistancy restrictions in this thread? Just wondering because I'm trying to create a superior+ puzzle myself (but it seems to be very hard...).

does manual solving expose any UR/BUGs in this list?
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Postby fermat » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:22 pm

Here is one with a quad.
Code: Select all
6 . . | 8 . . | . . 7
. . 1 | . . 7 | 4 . .
. 2 . | . 3 . | . 6 .
---------------------
. 1 . | . 8 . | . 2 .
. . . | . . . | . . .
. 7 . | . 1 . | . 3 .
---------------------
. 8 . | . 9 . | . 7 .
. . 9 | 6 . . | 5 . .
1 . . | . . 2 | . . 3
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Postby fermat » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:29 pm

ab wrote:the only requirement for this thread is that the puzzles are solved by hidden and naked sets, locked candidates, x wings, swordfish and jellyfish .....


Will you accept finned swordfish ?
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Postby ab » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:36 pm

fermat wrote:here's one with a quad

it may have a quad in it, but it can be solved with locked candidates and pairs.
fermat wrote:Will you accept finned swordfish ?
take your finned swordfish to the effortless extremes thread and you'll be welcomed with open arms:)
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Postby fermat » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:43 pm

ab wrote:take your finned swordfish to the effortless extremes thread and you'll be welcomed with open arms:)


You would think so. This thread doesn't mind if other methods solve the puzzle. I like this one much better, I'll save my fishy.:)
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Postby fermat » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:58 pm

I'll keep trying.:)

Code: Select all
. . . | . . 8 | 9 . .
. . . | . 9 . | . 2 .
. . . | 2 . . | 6 . 1
---------------------
. . 5 | 6 . 3 | . . 8
. 1 . | . 2 . | . 9 .
2 . . | 4 . 9 | 3 . .
---------------------
8 . 7 | . . 6 | . . .
. 2 . | . 3 . | . . .
. . 3 | 8 . . | . . .


This one is not an effortless, many techniques work and eliminate others.
I think that the swordfish usually is a factor.:?:
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Postby fermat » Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:41 pm

Wow. I just went through my 500 or so puzzles that I have made.

The one just posted is the only one that could be valid.

This category is much harder than I thought.

Swordfish and quads are quite rare.
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Postby Ocean » Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:37 pm

gsf wrote:since many (but not all) puzzles with UR/BUG solutions also have xy-cycle solutions
In the superior thread tarek wrote:I was thinking of something which is tougher actually, fish & quads however they should be consistant even against the mights of unique rectangles,xy wings & colouring/finned xwing.....

RW wrote:Is there any such consistancy restrictions in this thread? Just wondering because I'm trying to create a superior+ puzzle myself (but it seems to be very hard...).

does manual solving expose any UR/BUGs in this list?



I tried to find alternative 'bypassing techniques' at the step where the 'Superior Plus' technique is used, for some of the puzzles. Here a few examples:


Code: Select all
#7 (gsf) @55 
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 124   157   8     |X13    6     1235  |U179   14   U19    |
 | 124   6     27    | 9     8     12    | 5     147   3     |
 | 3     15    9     | 4     7     15    | 2     8     6     |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 6     37    4     | 8    Y13    9     | 17    2     5     |
 | 8     2     1     | 7     5     6     | 3     9     4     |
 | 5     9     37    | 2     4    X13    | 6    Y17    8     |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 7     8     5     | 6     2     4     |U19    3    U19    |
 | 12    13    23    | 5     9     8     | 4     6     7     |
 | 9     4     6     |Y13   X13    7     | 8     5     2     |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
The conjugate chain (x-cycle) is labeled X/Y.
The UR type 1 rectangle is labeled U.

A. Jellyfish: Eliminates '1' from r1c1, r1c2, r1c6, r1c8. [Rest is Hidden Pair + Singles]
B. Coloring (x-cycle): Eliminates '1' from r1c8. [Needs 'only X-Wing' after that]
C. UR type 1: Eliminates '1' and '9' from r1c7 [The rest is solved with 'Singles'.]
D. UR type 4: Eliminates '1' from r1c2 and r1c6. [But this does not solve the puzzle.]

Code: Select all
#13 (mine) @38
 *--------------------------------------------------------------------*
 | 4      1      2      | 5      9      7      | 8      6      3      |
 | 68     369    3689   | 134    2      134    | 7      19     5      |
 | 7      5      39     | 6      8      13     | 4      19     2      |
 |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
 | 168    3467   3468   | 1238   456    12368  | 9      345    67     |
 | 9      2      346    | 37     4567  #36     |-35     8      1      |
 | 18     3467   5      | 189   #46     189    | 2     #34     67     |
 |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
 | 2      89     1      | 89     67     5      | 36     37     4      |
 | 3      469    469    | 2479   1      2469   | 56     57     8      |
 | 5      468    7      | 48     3      468    | 1      2      9      |
 *--------------------------------------------------------------------*
The XY-wing is marked with #


A. Hidden Quad: Eliminates '3' from r4c4 and r4c6, and '6' from r4c6.
B. XY-Wing: Eliminates '3' from r5c7 (rest is solved with 'Singles').
C. UR type 4: Eliminates '6' from r4c2 and r6c2 (but does not help solving the puzzle).

Code: Select all
#21 (mine) @45
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 3     4    #67    | 6-78  5    #78    | 1     2     9     |
 | 8    #79    5     | 279   1     279   | 3     4     6     |
 | 1    #69    2     | 469   46    3     | 8     7     5     |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 2     56    689   | 3     789   4     | 5679  568   1     |
 | 7     1     689   | 25    89    25    | 69    3     4     |
 | 45    3     489   | 1     789   6     | 579   58    2     |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 45    8     3     | 4569  46    1     | 2     569   7     |
 | 6     2     1     | 579   3     579   | 4     59    8     |
 | 9    #57    47    | 4568  2    #58    |-56    1     3     |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*

Bypassing the Swordfish: XY-ring (Eliminates '7' from r1c4 and '5' from r9c7).

Code: Select all
#22 (gsf) @35
 *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
 | 8       459     3       | 1569    2       1456    | 7       46      145     |
 | 1       245     6       | 7       8       45      | 9       234     2345    |
 | 7       2459    245     | 1569    459     3       | 2458    2468    12458   |
 |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------|
 | 6       123458  12458   | 12359   3459    1245    | 248     7       248     |
 |#25      7      *24-5    | 8       6      #245     | 3       1       9       |
 | 9       12348   1248    | 123    #34      7       | 248     5       6       |
 |-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------|
 |#25      12568   1258    | 2356   #35      9       | 2458    2348    7       |
 | 3       2568    9       | 4       7       2568    | 1       28      258     |
 | 4       258     7       | 235     1       258     | 6       9       2358    |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Nice loop can eliminate '5' from r5c3, after which Jellyfish is not needed (then 'only Swordfish' is required).
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Postby Ocean » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:05 pm

If symmetry were not an issue, there are four Superior Plus puzzles in gfroyle's list of 17s, as far as I could find:

#
050400000000030800000000001300080700060000050000200000000506040108000300000000000
700000100000300000000600000038000000000010200006000050010000460200070000000500030
701000000000060200000000080000301000200000060000700000680040000000100003050000700
800000100000300000000700000039000000000010200007000050010000470200080000000600030
#
Three Swordfish puzzles. One Naked Quad puzzle (with XY-Wing as alternative bypass).
#
Search tips: gsf's program with options 1. -qFNBTHW 2. -qFNBT3H3W2 and compare the output.
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Postby RW » Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:02 pm

gsf wrote:does manual solving expose any UR/BUGs in this list?


I had a quick look, #7 solved with UR type 1 (as mentioned by Ocean), #17 and #19 solved with UR type 4. There was lots of other URs also, but none that directly solved the puzzle. I also solved a couple with more advanced uniqueness moves, example #14:

Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 7     6    *358   |*1358 #58    134   | 458   9     2     |
 | 2     4    *358   |*358   9     7     | 58    1     6     |
 | 158   158   9     | 2    #458   6     | 3     7    #48    |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 4     58    6     | 9     1     2     | 7     38    358   |
 | 3     2     18    | 4     7     5     | 18    6     9     |
 | 15    9     7     | 6     3     8     | 2     4     15    |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 158   158   2     | 7     458   9     | 6     38    1348  |
 | 6     3     148   |#18    2     14    | 9     5     7     |
 | 9     7     1458  | 1358  6     134   | 148   2     18    |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*

r1c34=3
If r12c4=8 => r1c5=5 & r8c4=1 => r12c4=3
                     => r3c5=4 => r3c9=8 => r12c3=8
=> r12c4<>8


[Edit: As udosuk pointed out, the move wasn't that simple. I edited the solution to be valid and as it is now I would probably ignore it as an alternative solution in the EE thread]

The puzzle is then solved with a x-wing. This is the kind of move that I don't expect any coded solver to pick up, but it's quite simple for the human eye. In the effortless thread I would probably discard a 10 node XY-chain with this alternative solution, but certainly not a XYZ-wing or finned swordfish. But on the other hand, I sometimes get the feeling that I'm the only one around here who picks up this kind of eliminations...

ab wrote:I still think you'll find it hard finding such puzzles, especially if you're making them by hand!


I couldn't agree more!!

RW
Last edited by RW on Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ab » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:04 pm

fermat wrote:I'll keep trying.:)

Code: Select all
. . . | . . 8 | 9 . .
. . . | . 9 . | . 2 .
. . . | 2 . . | 6 . 1
---------------------
. . 5 | 6 . 3 | . . 8
. 1 . | . 2 . | . 9 .
2 . . | 4 . 9 | 3 . .
---------------------
8 . 7 | . . 6 | . . .
. 2 . | . 3 . | . . .
. . 3 | 8 . . | . . .


This one is not an effortless, many techniques work and eliminate others.
I think that the swordfish usually is a factor.:?:

That's beyond the scope of this thread fermat. You've gone from one extreme to another.

You could use my software to decide if your puzzle qualifies:
http://uk.geocities.com/aidan_001/software.html
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Postby udosuk » Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:32 am

RW wrote:
Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 7     6    *358   |*1358 #58    134   | 458   9     2     |
 | 2     4    *358   |*358   9     7     | 58    1     6     |
 | 158   158   9     | 2    #458   6     | 3     7    #48    |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 4     58    6     | 9     1     2     | 7     38    358   |
 | 3     2     18    | 4     7     5     | 18    6     9     |
 | 15    9     7     | 6     3     8     | 2     4     15    |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 158   158   2     | 7     458   9     | 6     38    1348  |
 | 6     3     148   | 18    2     14    | 9     5     7     |
 | 9     7     1458  | 1358  6     134   | 148   2     18    |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*


The 3s are strongly linked in r12c34...

Sorry to barge in, but I cannot see this directly...:( I know it must be true, but just from that state of the grid how can we easily conclude that one of r12c4 must contain a 3?:?:

BTW I don't think finned swordfish is much harder than quads/jellyfish...
Code: Select all
. . . | . . 8 | 9 . .
. . . | . 9 . | . 2 .
. . . | 2 . . | 6 . 1
------+-------+------
. . 5 | 6 . 3 | . . 8
. 1 . | . 2 . | . 9 .
2 . . | 4 . 9 | 3 . .
------+-------+------
8 . 7 | . . 6 | . . .
. 2 . | . 3 . | . . .
. . 3 | 8 . . | . . .



 17    45    2     | 137   6     8     | 9     45    37 
 6     8     14    |-357   9    -1457  | 57    2     347
*4579  3     49    | 2    #457  *457   | 6     8     1   
-------------------+-------------------+-----------------
 49    49    5     | 6     1     3     | 2     7     8   
 3     1     8     |*57    2    *57    | 4     9     6   
 2     7     6     | 4     8     9     | 3     1     5   
-------------------+-------------------+-----------------
 8     459   7     | 159   45    6     | 15    3     2   
*459   2     149   |*579   3    *1457  | 8     6     479
 1459  6     3     | 8     457   2     | 157   45    479
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Postby gsf » Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:03 am

Ocean wrote:If symmetry were not an issue, there are four Superior Plus puzzles in gfroyle's list of 17s, as far as I could find:

Search tips: gsf's program with options 1. -qFNBTHW 2. -qFNBT3H3W2 and compare the output.
[/size]

I added technique ordering and filter expressions so this can be done with one run using:
Code: Select all
-q-XYG -e 'valid&&(H4||T4||W3||W4)'

which turns off X and Y cycles and guessing and (H4||T4||W3||W4) is the superior plus requirement almost verbatum
I'm running over gfroyle's 18s with (H4||T4||W4) (no swordfish) right now
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Postby gsf » Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:22 am

here's an interesting pair
the first solves with one naked quad and naked/hidden singles
the second solves with one hidden quad and naked/hidden singles
the puzzles only differ in clue cells [19] and [64]
Code: Select all
2 . . | . . 3 | 8 . .
. . 8 | 2 . . | . . .
3 . . | 4 . . | 2 . 1
------+-------+------
. 6 5 | . . . | . . 9
7 2 . | . . . | . . .
. 3 . | 5 . . | 4 1 .
------+-------+------
. . . | . . 6 | . 9 .
. . . | 9 1 5 | . . .
. . . | . 7 . | 5 . 8


2 . . | . . 3 | 8 . 4
. . 8 | 2 . . | . . .
3 . . | 4 . . | 2 . 1
------+-------+------
. 6 5 | . . . | . . 9
7 2 . | . . . | . . .
. 3 . | . . . | 4 1 .
------+-------+------
. . . | . . 6 | . 9 .
. . . | 9 1 5 | . . .
. . . | . 7 . | 5 . 8


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Postby RW » Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:25 am

udosuk wrote:I know it must be true, but just from that state of the grid how can we easily conclude that one of r12c4 must contain a 3?


Sorry, there was one thing that I saw when I solved it, but forgot to mention when I wrote the post as I tried to simplify the logic:

Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 7     6     358   |*1358 #58    134   | 458   9     2     |
 | 2     4     358   |*358   9     7     | 58    1     6     |
 | 158   158   9     | 2     458   6     | 3     7     48    |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 4     58    6     | 9     1     2     | 7     38    358   |
 | 3     2     18    | 4     7     5     | 18    6     9     |
 | 15    9     7     | 6     3     8     | 2     4     15    |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 158   158   2     | 7     458   9     | 6     38    1348  |
 | 6     3     148   |#18    2     14    | 9     5     7     |
 | 9     7     1458  | 1358  6     134   | 148   2     18    |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*


If r12c4=8 => r1c5=5 and r8c4=1 => r12c4=3

This indeed makes the move a bit more tricky and I would probably ignore it in the EE thread, unless the alternative technique is something really extreme.

RW
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