The latest news I have on the SudokuPX front is that Mathimagics now has a stash of 206,059 puzzles solving to 88,114 EDPX grids. The number is rising slowly, as MM is working furiously on the SudokuP 12 clue project, and I'm finding about a hundred puzzles a day with my spreadsheet approach, although I suspect that if MM got back on this project the number of puzzles would rise very quickly. The 9 clue puzzle count is stalled at 3.
Leren
SudokuPX (SudokuP + Diagonal)
60 posts
• Page 4 of 4 • 1, 2, 3, 4
Re: SudokuPX (SudokuP + Diagonal)
by Leren » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:35 am
- Leren
- Posts: 5119
- Joined: 03 June 2012
Re: SudokuPX (SudokuP + Diagonal)
by creint » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:07 pm
eleven wrote:I guess your single chains can't resolve single digit patterns like the ones i posted above.
With your hardest step:
An ALS gets reduced by a chain, but that chains contains 2 subchains that each result in a reducing it to a Locked set.
For the extra eliminations in cell r9c9, you use yet another chain to proof 3 or 5.
How far should a solver go, with depth or trying extra chains?
I did not use sets in my solving net nor did i use subchains, so it would have never found this. But still my solver would solve up to SE 9, i think.
- creint
- Posts: 393
- Joined: 20 January 2018
Re: SudokuPX (SudokuP + Diagonal)
by Mathimagics » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:47 pm
.
OK, we started with SudokuP, found the absolute minimal puzzles (11 clues), and these turned out to be P&P solvable without too much difficulty.
But when we add the X constraints, we find that 9-clues is the new minimum, and these puzzles are clearly challenging.
I think that tarek has confirmed that the same situation applies to SudokuW (Windoku), which after all is simply SudokuP with a different set of "windows" (PSET's). The 9-clue puzzle I posted there there is similarly challenging, it seems.
One of the reasons I find Kakuro so absorbing is that it has enormous range in difficulty levels (wrt P&P solving), from easy to impossible. I conjectured once that Sudoku was less interesting because it had a much narrower range.
But here we have demonstrated, I think, that these variants extend the difficulty range considerably.
I think this is a good thing!
OK, we started with SudokuP, found the absolute minimal puzzles (11 clues), and these turned out to be P&P solvable without too much difficulty.
But when we add the X constraints, we find that 9-clues is the new minimum, and these puzzles are clearly challenging.
I think that tarek has confirmed that the same situation applies to SudokuW (Windoku), which after all is simply SudokuP with a different set of "windows" (PSET's). The 9-clue puzzle I posted there there is similarly challenging, it seems.
One of the reasons I find Kakuro so absorbing is that it has enormous range in difficulty levels (wrt P&P solving), from easy to impossible. I conjectured once that Sudoku was less interesting because it had a much narrower range.
But here we have demonstrated, I think, that these variants extend the difficulty range considerably.
I think this is a good thing!
-
Mathimagics - 2017 Supporter
- Posts: 1926
- Joined: 27 May 2015
- Location: Canberra
Re: SudokuPX (SudokuP + Diagonal)
by Leren » Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:28 am
Well, I done nothing else for the last couple of months apart from searching for 10 clue PX puzzles. I now have a collection of about 149,000.
In doing so I appear to have come across 3 new 9 clue puzzles. Here they are in minlex format with their corresponding solutions.
It would be nice if one of resident geniuses could confirm/refute the correctness of this.
Leren
<edit>
Following blue's observation below, I have found my minlexing bug, so no new 9 clue puzzles and my EDPX puzzle count has dropped to about 149,000. Ouch !!!
In doing so I appear to have come across 3 new 9 clue puzzles. Here they are in minlex format with their corresponding solutions.
- Code: Select all
................1.....2............3......2....45............6.7.........8....... 128745936347869512965123847851692473693471285274538691519287364736954128482316759
...............1......2....3..........4...........56...1...............7.......8. 789163425245789163163524798396871542524396871871245639918637254632458917457912386
...........1....2.....3............4...........25............6.7.........8....... 639712548471958623258634719397286154514397286862541397923875461745169832186423975
It would be nice if one of resident geniuses could confirm/refute the correctness of this.
Leren
<edit>
Following blue's observation below, I have found my minlexing bug, so no new 9 clue puzzles and my EDPX puzzle count has dropped to about 149,000. Ouch !!!
Last edited by Leren on Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
- Leren
- Posts: 5119
- Joined: 03 June 2012
Re: SudokuPX (SudokuP + Diagonal)
by blue » Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:14 am
Hi Leren,
It's "refute", unfortunately.
It looks like your "minlexing" process, isn't taking the E-transformation into account.
The puzzles, can be transformed to match Mathimagics's three puzzles, like this:
It's "refute", unfortunately.
It looks like your "minlexing" process, isn't taking the E-transformation into account.
The puzzles, can be transformed to match Mathimagics's three puzzles, like this:
- Code: Select all
Leren #1: E-transform, relabel --> Mathimagics #3
Leren #2: E-transform, (left <-> right) mirror, relabel --> Mathimagics #1
Leren #3: E-transform, relabel --> Mathimagics #2
- blue
- Posts: 1045
- Joined: 11 March 2013
Re: SudokuPX (SudokuP + Diagonal)
by Leren » Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:12 am
OK blue, thanks for that. Leren
- Leren
- Posts: 5119
- Joined: 03 June 2012
Re: SudokuPX (SudokuP + Diagonal)
by Mathimagics » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:26 pm
.
We've found many, many 10-clue SudokuPX puzzles, by various non-rigorous means.
One rigorous (ie. complete) enumeration we CAN easily do is to use the 10-clue symmetric puzzle enumerator (see here)
I ran it on SudokuPX and found just 32 cases of symmetric 10-clue puzzles:
Note that these aren't canonicalised, so there are probably many equivalences wrt CF grids/puzzles in this set.
We've found many, many 10-clue SudokuPX puzzles, by various non-rigorous means.
One rigorous (ie. complete) enumeration we CAN easily do is to use the 10-clue symmetric puzzle enumerator (see here)
I ran it on SudokuPX and found just 32 cases of symmetric 10-clue puzzles:
Hidden Text: Show
Note that these aren't canonicalised, so there are probably many equivalences wrt CF grids/puzzles in this set.
-
Mathimagics - 2017 Supporter
- Posts: 1926
- Joined: 27 May 2015
- Location: Canberra
Re: SudokuPX (SudokuP + Diagonal)
by tarek » Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:25 am
I'm currently rating a list that Leren kindly provided with Sukaku explainer v1.14.5
Tarek
tarek wrote:started with Leren's PX list … I'm not sure if the list is a collection of random 10 clue puzzles or not but from the 1st 1000 puzzles it appears on average to have difficult puzzles and non singles puzzle. already there is an ER=10.6
- Code: Select all
.....................................1.....23.4..5.......1.....4.6...7.....8..... 10.6/1.5/1.5 DCFC+FC/HS/HS
Update:
We have breached the ER=11.0 barrier with the SudokuPX. It will be good to know if you think that these rated by v1.14.5 are as difficult as they would appear
- Code: Select all
...................................1...........2....345.....6.....47....8.....9.. 11.5/4.3/2.9 DCFC+DFC/g2SK01/gI
...................................1......2....3.........4...5.6......4.27..8.... 11.3/1.2/1.2 DCFC+MFC/HS/HS
...................................1......2....34........5...4.6.....1...7...8... 11.0/2.9/2.9 DCFC+MFC/gI/gI
...................................1......2....34........53..6.7.........8..9.... 11.3/2.9/2.9 DCFC+MFC/gI/gI
Tarek
-
tarek - Posts: 3762
- Joined: 05 January 2006
Re: SudokuPX: 10-clue search
by tarek » Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:51 am
eleven wrote:Mathimagics wrote:So, guys & gals, how's the pencil-solving analysis coming along?
I have played around with it for a while.
It needs some practice to spot moves like
- Code: Select all
*------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
|b134679 125679 12345679 | 23467 235679 2345679 | 123479 8 124579 |
| 134579 8 1234579 | 23457 2579 234579 | 123479 124579 6 |
| 34567 24679 24679 | 8 2679 1 | 47 234579 234579 |
|----------------------------+---------------------------+---------------------------|
| 134679 1679 134679 |b123467 b123679 8 | 5 123679 123479 |
| 1345679 145679 1345789 | 1234567 2679 234579 | 24679 124679 1234789 |
| 2 145679 3456789 | 14567 b135679 345679 | 13467 134679 34789 |
|----------------------------+---------------------------+---------------------------|
| 8 125679 2679 |c12367 4 23567 |b123679 1235679 123579 |
| 45679-1 3 24579-1 |d12567 d12567 257 | 8 a1245679 124579 |
|e14567 e124567 24567 | 9 8 23567 |d13467 d1234567 23457 |
*------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
1r8c8 = 1r1c1,r4c4,r7c7 (pos 1) - r7c4 = r8c45 => -1r8c13
1r1c1,r4c4,r7c7 (diag) = r8c8 - r8c45 = r7c4 => (pos1) -1r1c7, r4c1
There were some some more complex more complex with single digits, and now i wonder, if it is only a monster in length, not in hard steps.
Maybe it can be solved with locked candidates, subsets and coloring (one digit moves) only.
Is there no solver around ?
I found this next move which could be of interest:
5:2 grouped strong links in *:Main diagonal and in %:Box 7 weakly linked by c6 r8c9<>5
- Code: Select all
+----------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+
| 134679 | 125679 12345679 23467 235679 2345679 123479 8 | 124579 |
+----------+----------+ +----------+----------+
| 134579 | 8 | 1234579 23457 2579 234579 123479 | 124579 | 6 |
| +----------+----------+ +----------+----------+ |
| 34567 24679 | 24679 | 8 2679 1 | 47 | 234579 234579 |
| +----------+----------+ +----------+----------+ |
| 134679 1679 134679 | 123467 | 123679 | 8 | 5 123679 123479 |
| +----------+----------+----------+ |
| 1345679 145679 1345789 1234567 | 2679 | 234579 24679 124679 1234789 |
| +----------+----------+----------+ |
| 2 145679 3456789 | 14567 | 135679 |*345679 | 13467 134679 34789 |
| +----------+----------+ +----------+----------+ |
| 8 125679 | 2679 | 12367 4 %23567 | 123679 | 1235679 123579 |
| +----------+----------+ +----------+----------+ |
| 145679 | 3 | 124579 12567 %12567 %257 8 |*1245679 | 12479-5 |
+----------+----------+ +----------+----------+
| 14567 | 124567 24567 9 8 %23567 13467 1234567 |*23457 |
+----------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+----------+
-
tarek - Posts: 3762
- Joined: 05 January 2006
Re: SudokuPX (SudokuP + Diagonal)
by tarek » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:47 pm
Progress is slow in rating this collection of 10-clue SudokuPX. I only managed 13,000+ puzzles to rate. It is worth checking if this version of Sukaku Explainer assessment is fair as it appears that the collection so far is non-singles & on average very tough puzzles.
I'll share the latest high scorers (11.0+) for your feedback in case there is something wrong with the rating. I'll be interested specifically to know what do you think of the highest rated one
[Edit:] I rated the 3 known 9 clue SudokuPX puzzles separately and they rated ER 10.2, 9.6 and 11.1
I'll share the latest high scorers (11.0+) for your feedback in case there is something wrong with the rating. I'll be interested specifically to know what do you think of the highest rated one
- Code: Select all
...................................1..2........3..4.......5..6..4.....7..8..9.... 12.2/12.2/2.9 DCFC+DFC/DCFC+DFC/gI
...................................1...........2....345.....6.....47....8.....9.. 11.5/4.3/2.9 DCFC+DFC/g2SK01/gI
...................................1......2....3.........4...5.6......4.27..8.... 11.3/1.2/1.2 DCFC+MFC/HS/HS
...................................1......2....34........5...4.6.....1...7...8... 11.0/2.9/2.9 DCFC+MFC/gI/gI
...................................1......2....34........53..6.7.........8..9.... 11.3/2.9/2.9 DCFC+MFC/gI/gI
...................................1......2.3..45........6...7.8.........9.....4. 11.1/1.2/1.2 DLFC+MFC/HS/HS
...................................1......2.34.56........7...4.8.........9....... 11.1/1.2/1.2 DCFC+MFC/HS/HS
...................................1..2........3..4.......5..6..7.....8..9..2.... 11.0/11.0/2.9 DCFC+MFC/DCFC+MFC/gI
...................................1..2.....3..4..........3..5..6.....7..8..9.... 11.0/11.0/2.9 DCFC+MFC/DCFC+MFC/gI
...................................1..2.....3..4..5.......3..6..7.....8..9....... 11.0/11.0/2.9 DCFC+MFC/DCFC+MFC/gI
...................................1..2...3.4..5..6.......2..7...........8..3.... 11.1/8.8/2.9 DCFC+MFC/DRFC/gI
...................................12..........34........5...4.6.......7.8...9... 11.4/2.9/2.9 DCFC+MFC/gI/gI
...................................12..........34.5......6...4..7........8..9.... 11.7/2.9/2.9 DCFC+DFC/gI/gI
...................................12....3.....45........6...5.7...8.....9....... 11.1/2.9/2.9 DCFC+MFC/gI/gI
..................................1..2..3........4..5.........6..4..7.....2.....8 11.2/2.3/2.3 DCFC+MFC/NS/NS
...............................1..2..3.......45....6.......75....8........9...... 11.3/2.3/2.3 DCFC+MFC/NS/NS
..............................1.2..3..4........5...6.........7..8........1.....9. 11.4/4.0/2.9 DCFC+MFC/Sky/gI
.............................1.....2...........3....4.5.....6.....17....8.....9.. 11.5/4.3/2.9 DCFC+DFC/g2SK01/gI
..........................1........2......3....41........5...6.7.........8..9.... 11.3/1.5/1.5 DCFC+MFC/HS/HS
..........................1.......2..3..4...........5......6.....7..8.........1.9 11.2/1.2/1.2 DCFC+MFC/HS/HS
[Edit:] I rated the 3 known 9 clue SudokuPX puzzles separately and they rated ER 10.2, 9.6 and 11.1
-
tarek - Posts: 3762
- Joined: 05 January 2006
Re: Interesting SudokuPX
by tarek » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:01 pm
An interesting puzzle with a rare one step technique for this type of puzzle to solve it to stte. Can you spot it?
It is a SudokuPX but for convenience I'm showing the X diagonal regions only
Original puzzle which comes from Leren's collection of 10 clue SudokuPX puzzles
It is a SudokuPX but for convenience I'm showing the X diagonal regions only
- Code: Select all
+-----+-----------------------------------------+-----+
| 17 | 8 2 57 19 39 4 6 | 359 |
+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+
| 6 | 5 | 17 2 4 139 78 | 39 | 89 |
| +-----+-----+ +-----+-----+ |
| 4 39 | 39 | 58 6 78 | 57 | 2 1 |
| +-----+-----+ +-----+-----+ |
| 3 4 16 | 69 | 2 | 19 | 58 7 58 |
| +-----+-----+-----+ |
| 57 2 57 3 | 8 | 4 19 19 6 |
| +-----+-----+-----+ |
| 89 19 68 | 17 | 5 | 67 | 3 4 2 |
| +-----+-----+ +-----+-----+ |
| 19 13 | 4 | 68 39 68 | 2 | 5 7 |
| +-----+-----+ +-----+-----+ |
| 58 | 6 | 58 4 7 2 19 | 13 | 39 |
+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+
| 2 | 7 39 19 13 5 6 8 | 4 |
+-----+-----------------------------------------+-----+
Original puzzle which comes from Leren's collection of 10 clue SudokuPX puzzles
- Code: Select all
..........................1....2.....2.3............4...4....5..6..7...........8.
-
tarek - Posts: 3762
- Joined: 05 January 2006
- 999_Springs
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 27 January 2007
- Location: In the toilet, flushing down springs, one by one.
Re: SudokuPX (SudokuP + Diagonal)
by tarek » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:45 pm
999_Springs wrote:bug+2 -9r1c56r2c89? lol
There is a w-wing (not yet implemented in Sukaku explainer), a VWXYZ wing (2 of them) but I was after the BUG+2. Well done!
P.S. Because this is a SudokuPX you can also eliminate -9r4c6,r8c9
Last edited by tarek on Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
tarek - Posts: 3762
- Joined: 05 January 2006
Re: 10-clue SudokuPX list rating update
by tarek » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:58 pm
Leren's 10 clue SudokuPX list is slow to rate due to high on average difficulty which reflects on the time to rate per puzzle. I've stopped at 40,000.
The highest diamonds encounterd
Highest rated puzzles encountered
The highest diamonds encounterd
- Code: Select all
.........................1...2.....3..4...5.......6..7.8..........7.........9.... 10.6/7.8/7.8 CFC+FC/NFC/NFC
.........................1...2........3...4.....4....56.........7.5........8..... 9.8/7.8/7.8 DCFC+/NFC/NFC
.........................1...2........3...4.....4....5.6..........57........8.... 9.4/7.8/7.8 DCFC/NFC/NFC
.........................12..3........4...5.....5....6.7..........6.........8.... 9.4/7.8/7.8 DCFC/NFC/NFC
.........................1...2...3....45..........6..7.8..........7.........9.... 9.3/7.8/7.8 DCFC/NFC/NFC
.........................1...2.....3..4.........5.6..7...3........7.............8 9.2/7.8/7.8 DCFC/NFC/NFC
.........................1...2...3.4..56..........7..8..........4.8.............. 9.1/7.8/7.8 DRFC/NFC/NFC
.........................1...2........3...4.....4.5..67...........6........8..... 8.0/7.8/7.8 NFC/NFC/NFC
.........................1...2........3...4.....4.5..67...........6..........8... 7.8/7.8/7.8 NFC/NFC/NFC
Highest rated puzzles encountered
- Code: Select all
...................................1..2........3..4.......5..6..4.....7..8..9.... 12.2/12.2/2.9 DCFC+DFC/DCFC+DFC/gI
.........................1....2....13..........45............6.......7...8.9..... 12.1/4.1/2.9 DCFC+DFC/2SK/gI
.........................1...23...........4..........5....6......7....8..8...9... 12.0/12.0/4.3 DCFC+DFC/DCFC+DFC/g2SK01
.........................1...23...........4..........5....6......7....8..2...9... 12.0/12.0/4.3 DCFC+DFC/DCFC+DFC/g2SK11
.........................12..3......4...........5....6....47....8...........2.... 12.0/7.9/2.9 DCFC+DFC/NFC/gI
.........................1...2..3.....4...5..........6....7......1....8......9... 12.0/2.9/2.9 DCFC+DFC/gI/gI
.........................1...2......3...........4..5.6....7.....8......5....9.... 12.0/2.3/2.3 DCFC+DFC/NS/NS
-
tarek - Posts: 3762
- Joined: 05 January 2006
Re: SudokuPX (SudokuP + Diagonal)
by tarek » Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:01 pm
Sukaku Explainer v1.14.7 release is out which supports SudokuPX
use the command line option if interested
use the command line option if interested
- Code: Select all
-X1 -D1 --techs=111110101110111111110111001101001111111
-
tarek - Posts: 3762
- Joined: 05 January 2006
60 posts
• Page 4 of 4 • 1, 2, 3, 4
