One-Trick Pony Jan 13, 2020

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One-Trick Pony Jan 13, 2020

Postby tarek » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:11 pm

Code: Select all
98.....3......9.4..5..8...22...75.......163...653.8...57...4....93..7.2.8.....6..
+-------+-------+-------+
| 9 8 . | . . . | . 3 . |
| . . . | . . 9 | . 4 . |
| . 5 . | . 8 . | . . 2 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| 2 . . | . 7 5 | . . . |
| . . . | . 1 6 | 3 . . |
| . 6 5 | 3 . 8 | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| 5 7 . | . . 4 | . . . |
| . 9 3 | . . 7 | . 2 . |
| 8 . . | . . . | 6 . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
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Re: One-Trick Pony Jan 13, 2020

Postby rjamil » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:07 pm

Hi Tarek,

Not sure about what others thinking about this puzzle, but, I think, it looks like the one-trick Rhinophant than one-trick pony :?

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Re: One-Trick Pony Jan 13, 2020

Postby tarek » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:17 pm

It would need 1 advanced techniques after some short basics.

It wasn't me who coined up the term :lol:

http://sudocue.net/pony.php
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Re: One-Trick Pony Jan 13, 2020

Postby rjamil » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:35 pm

Hi Tarek

tarek wrote:It would need 1 advanced techniques after some short basics.

Ok. But, my point is, how much/far do we search 1 advanced technique?
Let for example, as per SudokuWiki solver, it won't solve with even one either Diabolical or Extreme Technique after basics.

R. Jamil
------------
In “Pacific Ocean”, each C is pronounced differently.
A pony is genetic hybrid animal, whereas, a rhinophant is fictional animal.
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Re: One-Trick Pony Jan 13, 2020

Postby tarek » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:16 pm

The advanced technique could be anything from explainer rating 4.0 - 7.5. It would be a technique that has a name and hopefully is well recognised by all.

I don’t normally post these. So most likely I’m going for something interesting or spectacular!

There could be more than one advanced technique that solves this.

SudokuWiki solver inability to advance it doesn’t mean that the technique isn’t there.

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Re: One-Trick Pony Jan 13, 2020

Postby Cenoman » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:20 pm

Likely not up to tarek's expectation...
Two steps without any trick:
Code: Select all
 +---------------------+-----------------------+-------------------------+
 |  9     8    12467   |  14567   2456   12    |  157    3      156      |
 |  36    12   1267    |  1567    2356   9     |  1578   4      1568     |
 |  346   5    1467    |  1467    8      13    |  179    169    2        |
 +---------------------+-----------------------+-------------------------+
 |  2     3    89      |  49      7      5     |  1489   1689   14689    |
 |  7     4    89      |  2       1      6     |  3      589    589      |
 |  1     6    5       |  3       49     8     |  2      79     479      |
 +---------------------+-----------------------+-------------------------+
 |  5     7    126     |  1689    2369   4     |  189    189    1389     |
 |  46    9    3       |  1568    56     7     |  1458   2      1458     |
 |  8     12   124     |  159     2359   123   |  6      1579  a134579   |
 +---------------------+-----------------------+-------------------------+

(7)r9c9 = r9c8 - (7=9)r6c8 - r456c9 = (93)r79c9 => -145 r9c9; 24 placements and basics
Code: Select all
 +-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
 |  9    8    12+67*  |  1567   4    12*  |  57    3    16    |
 |  3    12   1267   |  1567   26   9    |  578   4    168   |
 |  4    5    167    |  167    8    3    |  79    19   2     |
 +-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
 |  2    3    8      |  4      7    5    |  1     6    9     |
 |  7    4    9      |  2      1    6    |  3     8    5     |
 |  1    6    5      |  3      9    8    |  2     7    4     |
 +-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
 |  5    7    12*    |  168    26   4    |  89    19   3     |
 |  6    9    3      |  18     5    7    |  4     2    18    |
 |  8    12*  4      |  9      3    12*  |  6     5    7     |
 +-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+

5-link bivalue-oddagon (12)r19, c36, b7 => +67 r1c3; ste
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Re: One-Trick Pony Jan 13, 2020

Postby eleven » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:25 pm

Also this variation of Cenoman's first move needs a remote pair or some wing later (as well as the hard-to-spot Sue de Coq):
Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
 |  9     8    12467   |  14567   2456   12    |  157    3      156      |
 |  36    12   1267    |  1567    2356   9     |  1578   4      1568     |
 |  346   5    1467    |  1467    8      13    |  179    169    2        |
 |---------------------+-----------------------+-------------------------|
 |  2     3    89      |  49      7      5     |  148-9  168-9 d14689    |
 |  7     4    89      |  2       1      6     |  3      58-9  d589      |
 |  1     6    5       |  3       49     8     |  2     c79   db479      |
 |---------------------+-----------------------+-------------------------|
 |  5     7    126     |  1689    2369   4     |  189    189  ea39-18    |
 |  46    9    3       |  1568    56     7     |  1458   2      1458     |
 |  8     12   124     |  159     2359   123   |  6      1579 ea379-145  |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------------------*

37r79c9 = 7r6c9 - (7=9)r6c8 - r456c9 = 39r79c9, loop => -18r7c9, -145r9c9, -9r4c78,r5c8
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Re: One-Trick Pony Jan 13, 2020

Postby Cenoman » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:45 pm

eleven wrote:37r79c9 = 7r6c9 - (7=9)r6c8 - r456c9 = 39r79c9, loop => -18r7c9, -145r9c9, -9r4c78,r5c8

I like your writing the Sue de Coq with the AHS's !

Let me formulate it, in an other player's style: (1456789)r6c89, r12458c9, 7 digits in 7 cells, none can be twice (so all must be there) ;)

Edit: corrected the digit and the cell counts (thanks SpAce)
Last edited by Cenoman on Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: One-Trick Pony Jan 13, 2020

Postby pjb » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:04 pm

Code: Select all
 9       8       12467  | 14567  2456   12     | 157    3      156   
 36      12      1267   | 1567   2356   9      | 1578   4      1568   
 346     5       1467   | 1467   8      13     | 179    169    2     
------------------------+----------------------+---------------------
 2       3       89     | 49     7      5      | 1489   1689   14689 
 7       4       89     | 2      1      6      | 3      589    589   
 1       6       5      | 3      49     8      | 2      79     479   
------------------------+----------------------+---------------------
 5       7       126    | 1689   2369   4      |b189   b189    3-189   
a46      9       3      | 168-5 a56     7      |b1458   2     b1458   
 8       12      124    | 159    2359   123    | 6      57-19  3457-19


There is a double ALS at r8c15, r7c78 and r8c79, with X-Z 5 and 4, and with follow-ons gives 74 eliminations to yield following:

Code: Select all
 9       8      b1267   | 1567   4     c12     | 57     3      16     
 3      a12      1267   | 1567   26     9      | 578    4      168   
 4       5       167    | 167    8      3      | 79     19     2     
------------------------+----------------------+---------------------
 2       3       8      | 4      7      5      | 1      6      9     
 7       4       9      | 2      1      6      | 3      8      5     
 1       6       5      | 3      9      8      | 2      7      4     
------------------------+----------------------+---------------------
 5       7       12     | 168    26     4      | 89     19     3     
 6       9       3      | 18     5      7      | 4      2      18     
 8       2-1     4      | 9      3     d12     | 6      5      7     


This is solved with a simple chain: (1=2)r2c2 - r1c3 = r1c6 - (2=1)r9c6 => -1 r9c2; stte

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Re: One-Trick Pony Jan 13, 2020

Postby tarek » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:15 pm

Apologies to all,
I indeed thought that the advanced technique would lead to "ste" but as you've all indicated, indeed this might be a Rhinophant.
As Cenoman and eleven mentioned, a skyscraper or remote pair would be needed to finally finish it.

I posted the wrong puzzle. I had 2 puzzles which need the same trick. One of them ends with ste, I posted the wrong one :oops:

The trick I was after which eleven spotted a SDC achieving the same is:

Code: Select all
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 9      8      12467  | 14567  2456   12     | 157    3     *156    |
| 36     12     1267   | 1567   2356   9      | 1578   4     *1568   |
| 346    5      1467   | 1467   8      13     | 179    169    2      |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 2      3      89     | 49     7      5      |148-9  168-9  *14689  |
| 7      4      89     | 2      1      6      | 3     58-9   *589    |
| 1      6      5      | 3      49     8      | 2     %79    *479    |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 5      7      126    | 1689   2369   4      | 189    189    39-18  |
| 46     9      3      | 1568   56     7      | 1458   2     *1458   |
| 8      12     124    | 159    2359   123    | 6      1579   379-145|
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
TUVWXYZ-Wing (double linked)
ALS-XZ double linked (7,9)
*:1456789 %:79 => -18r7c9, -145r9c9, -9r4c78,r5c8


Well done to all

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Re: One-Trick Pony Jan 13, 2020

Postby SpAce » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:41 am

Hi eleven, Cenoman, tarek,

Just a couple of quick comments related to an on-going SDC / (TUVW)XY(Z)-Wing discussion elsewhere...

Cenoman wrote:
eleven wrote:37r79c9 = 7r6c9 - (7=9)r6c8 - r456c9 = 39r79c9, loop => -18r7c9, -145r9c9, -9r4c78,r5c8

I like your writing the Sue de Coq with the AHS's !

Me too, but I'd call it a Quasi-Hidden Sue de Coq when viewed from that POV. A normal SDC is specifically a naked pattern, but this one is not purely hidden either because it's using the r6c8 cell. Then again, purely hidden variants that make sense are rare (just like pure MSHS patterns). It's easy to see that eleven's quasi-hidden variant is the most efficient possibility here (though the longest to write as a loop):

Sue de Coq:

    7x7 (Rank 0): {6N8 124568N9 \ 14568c9 79b6}

    (7=9)r6c8 - (9=14568'7)r124586c9 - loop
Hidden Sue de Coq:

    8x8 (Rank 0): {379C9 14568B6 \ 4n7 45n8 45679n9}

    (37)r79c9 = (714568-9)b6p123459 = (93)r79c9 - loop
Quasi-Hidden Sue de Coq:

    4x4 (Rank 0): {379C9 6N8 \ 79b6 79n9}

    (37)r79c9 = r6c9 - (7=9)r6c8 - r456c9 = (93)r79c9 - loop

All with the same eliminations: => -9 b6p125, -18 r7c9, -145 r9c9

Let me formulate it, in an other player's style: (145689)r6c89, r12458c9, 6 digits in 6 cells, none can be twice (so all must be there) ;)

I think you missed one digit (7), so it's actually 7 digits in 7 cells.

tarek wrote:TUVWXYZ-Wing (double linked)

StrmCkr would definitely like that, and I almost like that -- but not quite :) To me "wing" always implies Rank 1 (except X-Wing which is enough of a misnomer already), and looping wings should be "rings". Thus, why not call it TUVWXYZ-Ring? That would be a short and descriptive synonym for a 7digit-7cell Sue de Coq, clearly implying the looping (Rank 0) nature without needing the unwieldy "doubly-linked" qualifier. Another name that I would accept is "Bent Naked Septuple" (as long as its restricted to mean Rank 0 patterns only, just like the normal unbent variants).
-SpAce-: Show
Code: Select all
   *             |    |               |    |    *
        *        |=()=|    /  _  \    |=()=|               *
            *    |    |   |-=( )=-|   |    |      *
     *                     \  ¯  /                   *   

"If one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic narrow view of the Jedi."
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