LA Times Diabolical January 18, 2013

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LA Times Diabolical January 18, 2013

Postby ArkieTech » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:45 am

Code: Select all
 *-----------*
 |...|...|...|
 |2.6|7.9|...|
 |1..|.28|..9|
 |---+---+---|
 |..3|4.5|.92|
 |..1|...|3..|
 |95.|2.3|7..|
 |---+---+---|
 |7..|9..|..8|
 |...|8.4|6.7|
 |...|...|...|
 *-----------*


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Re: LA Times Diabolical January 18, 2013

Postby Leren » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:19 am

w-wing (34) r1c9+r2c2 + 4r3c27 => r2c89 <> 3; stte

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Last edited by Leren on Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LA Times Diabolical January 18, 2013

Postby pjb » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:06 am

It's hard to go past the 'Y wing' of: (3=5)r3c4 - (5=4)r3c7 - (4=3)r1c9: => r1c45 <> 3; stte

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Re: LA Times Diabolical January 18, 2013

Postby Leren » Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:22 am

Just to complete the alphabet there's an xyz-wing (345) r2c25,r3c4 with transport of 3 from r2c2 to r3c4 => r1c45 <> 3; stte

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Re: LA Times Diabolical January 18, 2013

Postby eleven » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:02 pm

Code: Select all
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 58     89     589    | 13     346    16     | 2      7      34     |
| 2      34     6      | 7     *345    9      |G1458  *13458 G1345   |
| 1      34     7      |*35     2      8      | 45     6      9      |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 6      7      3      | 4      18     5      | 18     9      2      |
| 48     2      1      | 6      9      7      | 3     G458    45     |
| 9      5      48     | 2      18     3      | 7      148    6      |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 7      16     245    | 9      356    126    | 145   G12345  8      |
| 35     19     29     | 8      35     4      | 6      12     7      |
|G3458   168   G2458   |*135    7      126    | 9     *12345 G1345   |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+

Broken wing. All 7 guardians lead to r3c4=5 or r8c5=5 => r2c5, r9c4<>5
r9c139=5->r3c4=5
r2c79=5->r3c4=5
r5c8=5->r5c1=8->r1c1=5->r8c1=3->r8c5=5
r7c8=5->r7c5=3->r8c5=5
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Re: LA Times Diabolical January 18, 2013

Postby tlanglet » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:44 pm

How about the xy-wing(45-3)r3c7,r1c9,r3c4 => r1c45<>3

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Re: LA Times Diabolical January 18, 2013

Postby tlanglet » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:34 pm

I just realized that pjb posted the same solution as my xy-wing so I had some free time to look for another un-posted solution.

Just having fun, I found this loop which, unless I messed it up, is the longest I believe I found that was completely useless.
(8=5)r1c1-r8c1=r8c5-(5=34)r2c52-3r2c89=3r1c9-(3=1)r1c4-(1=6)r1c6-r79c6=r7c5-(6=1)r7c2-(1=9)r8c2-(9=8)r1c2-(8=5)r1c1 Loop => r9c1<>5, r7c5<>5, r1c5<>3, r7c6<>6, r9c2<>1, r1c3<>8

Here is an alternate to my xy-wing.......
4r2c5=(4-6)r1c5=r1c6-r79c6=r7c5-(6=1)r7c2-(1=9)r8c2-(9=8)r1c2-(8-5)r1c1-r8c1=r8c5 => r2c5<>5

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Re: LA Times Diabolical January 18, 2013

Postby daj95376 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:31 pm

I guess the definition of a Broken Wing has changed. I was under the impression that it's a single-digit pattern -- including the effects for the Guardian candidates.
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Re: LA Times Diabolical January 18, 2013

Postby Marty R. » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:35 pm

Ditto on the wings.

Leren wrote:Just to complete the alphabet there's an xyz-wing (345) r2c25,r3c4 with transport of 3 from r2c2 to r3c4 => r1c45 <> 3; stte

Leren


Leren, I need help with this one. One pincer is being transported to the other, leaving two pincers. This is one I've haven't seen before. :?:
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Re: LA Times Diabolical January 18, 2013

Postby Ngisa » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:46 pm

XY-Wing 35-45-34 pivoted in r3c7; r1c45<>3 solves it.
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Re: LA Times Diabolical January 18, 2013

Postby eleven » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:10 pm

daj95376 wrote:I guess the definition of a Broken Wing has changed. I was under the impression that it's a single-digit pattern -- including the effects for the Guardian candidates.

The broken wing, which i marked with stars, and it's guardians (G) are single digit 5.
The rest is transport, just as you yourself and DonM did here and here.
It's the same we as do with a deadly pattern since many years.
What's the problem? The notation ?
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Re: LA Times Diabolical January 18, 2013

Postby daj95376 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:58 pm

eleven wrote:
daj95376 wrote:I guess the definition of a Broken Wing has changed. I was under the impression that it's a single-digit pattern -- including the effects for the Guardian candidates.

The broken wing, which i marked with stars, and it's guardians (G) are single digit 5.
The rest is transport, just as you yourself and DonM did.
It's the same we as do with a deadly pattern since many years.
What's the problem? The notation ?

Guilty as charged !!! However, I was not comfortable with mine and DonM's earlier posts, and your post gave me the opportunity to question my (probably) previous error.

Yes, on deadly patterns, all values are "fair" to use in the associated chains. I'm looking for other instances than DonM's and my earlier posts for examples of Broken Wings using more than one value across the board.

BTW: no problem with the notation.

Regards, Danny
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Re: LA Times Diabolical January 18, 2013

Postby Leren » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:01 pm

Marty R. wrote:Ditto on the wings.

Leren wrote:Just to complete the alphabet there's an xyz-wing (345) r2c25,r3c4 with transport of 3 from r2c2 to r3c4 => r1c45 <> 3; stte

Leren


Leren, I need help with this one. One pincer is being transported to the other, leaving two pincers. This is one I've haven't seen before. :?:


Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| 58      89      589      | 1-3     46-3    16       | 2       7       34       |
| 2      B34a     6        | 7      A345     9        | 1458    13458   1345     |
| 1       34b     7        |C35c     2       8        | 45      6       9        |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 6       7       3        | 4       18      5        | 18      9       2        |
| 48      2       1        | 6       9       7        | 3       458     45       |
| 9       5       48       | 2       18      3        | 7       148     6        |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 7       16      245      | 9       356     126      | 145     12345   8        |
| 35      19      29       | 8       35      4        | 6       12      7        |
| 3458    168     2458     | 135     7       126      | 9       12345   1345     |
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*


The xyz-wing cells are A,B,C and the 3 is transported a->b->c

thus 3r2c2 => 3r3c4 but also -3r3c4 => -3r2c2 ie 5r3c4 => 4r2c2

3r1c4 or 3r1c5 => 5r3c4, 4r2c2, 45r2c5 - contradiction as per a standard xyz-wing.

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Re: LA Times Diabolical January 18, 2013

Postby DonM » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:19 am

eleven wrote:
daj95376 wrote:I guess the definition of a Broken Wing has changed. I was under the impression that it's a single-digit pattern -- including the effects for the Guardian candidates.

The broken wing, which i marked with stars, and it's guardians (G) are single digit 5.
The rest is transport, just as you yourself and DonM did here and here.
It's the same we as do with a deadly pattern since many years.
What's the problem? The notation ?


If you were to have asked me that question, the answer would be 'Yes'.
One of the benefits of a 'standard' notation, especially where there are less common constructs such as a BW/oddagon, is that the derived SIS (which is the core of the chain or one-stepper solution) is quickly understood without having to spend extra time figuring it out. The other benefit of AIC notation is that you can quickly differentiate simple chains from nets.

Just eye-balling your solution, it is not clear to me what the operative SIS (provided by the BW) is, and/or whether this a net. As you say, there are 7 guardians. From what I see, it would take 3 cells with a 5 to knock out the guardians which, to me, usually means having to use a net. I'd like to better understand your solution- is there a derived SIS you can point out?
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Re: LA Times Diabolical January 18, 2013

Postby pjb » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:29 am

I struggled with Leren's first solution until it occurred to me that the 4r27c3 should surely be 4r3c27. Interestingly, an alternate W wing is the same two 34's but transmitted via r12c5.

Phil
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