The New Sudoku Players' Forum

by **champagne** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:08 am

and a lot of puzzles in the grey area with a double exocet 3 digits
as in the green area, we have many more double exocets with 4 digits

Hidden Text: Show

by **Leren** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:17 am

David P Bird Wrote:
But the strong derived inference will only hold when the box 2 target is in r2, as then r1c78 must contain the two true base digits. Therefore it seems a distinction must be made between be JEs with co-linear targets and those with diagonal ones when this inference is used.

I agree that this move is subject to the same caveats as Exocet secondary equivalences generally. The two Targets cell must be in
different rows and the opposite Target cell must not be capable of holding a non-base digit, as it might do in the case of twin Exocets
where there is a SIS between two target cells in the same box.

Nevertheless it applies equally to r1c8 and r1c9 (in your example). In other words if both cells held other non-base digits (other than the SIS digit 4)
they could be eliminated from both cells. I've never noticed this before, perhaps it's quite rare if an Exocet that hasn't been partially dismantled by
other moves. In your example, without the SK loop eliminations there are more than 2 4's in Box 3.

Leren

by **champagne** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:12 pm

This is the second second post summarizing results on the sample test made in the grey/green areas.

At that point the question is what to share and how to do it.

Hidden Text: Show

by **David P Bird** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:32 pm

Sorry guys but this will be a series of holding answers as my free time has been rather overwhelmed of late.

Champagne, Many thanks for the efforts you've made, I'm sorry I haven't had time to sample your latest puzzle sets which I need to do to properly understand how you've organised them, before I answer you.

If you have nothing better to do in the meantime, I'd be interested in finding out how common Junior Exocets are with both targets in the same box, and how common Advanced Exocets are. Otherwise I suggest you take a break until I catch up. I'll try to do that by tomorrow night.

Blue, I've spent some time considering your example and wondering if you were envisaging some procedure to follow when a near miss JExocet has been found. Is that what you were trying to suggest?

Leren If the first thing we do when we find a JExocet is to eliminate the non-base digits in the target cells I'm not sure that some of the scenarios you discuss are possible. However Champagne has mentioned double JE3s which I haven't considered of late (and have no memory of considering them 10 months ago) so I could be wrong.

All (past and present), I take it from the silence that the suggested partition between Junior & Advanced Exocets is worth running with at least for the time being. JExocet has been, and continues to be, a team effort and I just feel I'm doing the housekeeping.

by **blue** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:51 pm

Hi David,

David P Bird wrote:Blue, I've spent some time considering your example and wondering if you were envisaging some procedure to follow when a near miss JExocet has been found. Is that what you were trying to suggest?

I don't know what I'm trying to suggest -- if anything. I don't exactly know what you look for to spot them, other than that it has to do with what clues are and aren't present, and where. My thought was that with only one clue "out of place" in the example, when compared with a normal JExocet, it might not be that difficult to extend your ideas (whatever they might be) to be able to recognize the other kinds of patterns too.

Regards,
Blue.

by **daj95376** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:30 pm

Maybe we should have spent more time on the topic of technique hierarchy. Then these puzzles might not have been included in the first ten puzzles in one of champagne's recent lists for JExocets.

Code: Select all: Puzzle #1: 98.7.....6...5......4..96..4....89....5.9..3....6....2.6...58.....3....7....6..1. r7 b9 Naked Pair <> 49 r7c345 c2 Naked Triple <> 123 r89c2 c2b4 Locked Candidate 1 <> 2 r2c2 c3b1 Locked Candidate 1 <> 2 r7c3 r68 X-Wing <> 1 r7c1 BUG+1 = 3 r2c3 Solution: 982736154613452798754819623436528971825197436197643582361275849549381267278964315 Puzzle #2: 98.7.....7...6.8....6..5...4.........5..3..2...79..6...1...2..3..96..5.........41 c7b9 Naked Pair <> 79 r345c7 r7 Naked Pair <> 58 r7c5 c3b1 Locked Candidate 1 <> 5 r9c3 r79c57 <79> UR Type 1.2224 <> 79 r9c5 r1 b3 Locked Candidate 1 <> 1 r1c6 BUG+1 = 4 r2c6 Solution: 985723416723164895146895237491256378658437129237918654814572963379641582562389741 Puzzle #3: 98.7..6....5.6..4....3..5..8......2..1...7.9...9.2.4..1.........3...6.....6.4...2 r1 b3 Locked Pair <> 13 r1c356,r2c9,r3c89 r5 Naked Pair <> 38 r5c349 b7 Naked Pair <> 24 r78c3 c3 Naked Pair <> 24 r78c3 b2 Naked Triple <> 189 r3c6 r3 Naked Triple <> 789 r3c6 c6b2 Naked Pair <> 24 r47c6 c9b3 Locked Candidate 1 <> 9 r78c9 r9 b9 Locked Candidate 2 <> 7 r7c789,r8c789 r78c35 <78> UR Type 4.2244 <> 8 r78c5 2-Fish c57\r48 f 020\200 <> 1 r8c89 2-Fish c57\r57 f 020\200 <> 3 r7c89 2-Fish r58\c49 f 200\020 <> 5 r7c9 2-Fish r5b8\c49 fF3 101\020 <> 5 r7c9 2-Fish r5c6\c9b5 gm 110\011 <> 5 r7c9 2-Fish r5c6\r7b5 gm 110\101 <> 5 r7c9 b9 Naked Quad <> 4568 r789c7,r9c8 Solution: 984752631375961248621384579863495127412637895759128463148279356237516984596843712 Puzzle #4: 98.7..6....5.9..4......6..843..2......29.5..........2.2..........3.4..5....3..7.1 r9 Naked Pair <> 68 r9c123 r9 b7 Naked Pair <> 49 r7c23,r8c2 c8b9 Locked Pair <> 68 r7c7,r45c8,r78c9 r7 Naked Pair <> 68 r7c25679 r6 Naked Quad <> 3689 r6c16 <78+1> XY-Wing r8c1/r6c1+r8c6 <> 1 r6c6 <18+7> XY-Wing r8c6/r6c6+r8c1 <> 7 r6c1 r57c79 <34> UR Type 3.2233 r5c5<>68 2-Fish c24\r48 S 1 020\200 <> 6 r4c3 2-Fish r48\c24 S 1 200\020 <> 6 r5c2 2-Fish r48\c34 S 1 200\020 <> 6 r7c3 2-Fish c4b7\r48 fF2 011\200 <> 6 r4c3 2-Fish r4b7\c34 fF2 101\020 <> 6 r8c4 2-Fish r4c2\c4b4 fm 110\011 <> 6 r8c4 2-Fish r4c2\r8b4 fm 110\101 <> 6 r8c4 2-Fish c16\r48 S 1 020\200 <> 8 r4c3 2-Fish c6b7\r48 fF2 011\200 <> 8 r4c3 Solution: 981754632625893147347216598439621875872935416156487923218579364763148259594362781 Puzzle #6: 98.7..6..5..9..4......32...6..4..5...9.....1.........84...97....6.5.......5..47.. b6 Naked Quad <> 2379 r5c9,r6c8 r5 Naked Quad <> 2368 r5c39 c3b1 Naked Pair <> 23 r47c3 c7b6 Locked Pair <> 23 r4c89,r7c7,r8c7 c9 Naked Pair <> 23 r479c9 r7 Naked Pair <> 18 r7c2 r56c17 <23> UR Type 1.2223 <> 23 r5c1 Solution: 983745621572961483146832957631428579897356214254179368428697135769513842315284796 Puzzle #7: 98.7..6..5..9..78.....84...7......6..59...3...3.5....73..6..5....6.2..9......1... c4b8 Locked Pair <> 48 r4c4,r5c4,r7c56 c9b3 Locked Candidate 1 <> 4 r57c9 r38 X-Wing <> 1 r56c1,r46c7 r39 X-Wing <> 2 r56c1,r46c7 r6 Naked Quad <> 4689 r6c38 <14+2> XY-Wing r1c3/r2c2+r6c3 <> 2 r4c2 c3b4 Locked Candidate 1 <> 2 r7c3 2-Fish r16\c39 S 1 200\020 <> 1 r5c9 2-Fish r6c2\c8b4 fm 110\011 <> 1 r7c8 2-Fish r6c2\r7b4 fm 110\101 <> 1 r7c8 2-Fish c8b7\r57 fF4 011\200 <> 4 r5c1 2-Fish c39\r47 S 1 020\200 <> 8 r4c7 2-Fish c39\r57 S 1 020\200 <> 8 r5c1 2-Fish r47\c37 S 1 200\020 <> 8 r89c7 2-Fish r47\c39 S 1 200\020 <> 8 r5c9 2-Fish c3b9\r47 fF3 011\200 <> 8 r4c7 2-Fish c9b7\r57 fF3 011\200 <> 8 r5c1 2-Fish r4b9\c37 fF3 101\020 <> 8 r7c3 2-Fish r4c9\c3b6 fm 110\011 <> 8 r7c3 2-Fish r4c9\r7b6 fm 110\101 <> 8 r7c3 Solution: 984752631523916784167384259718243965659178342432569817341697528876425193295831476 Puzzle #8: 98.7..6..5..9..78.....84...7......65.3.5....7..9...3..3..6..5....6.2..9......1... c4b8 Locked Pair <> 48 r4c4,r6c4,r7c56 c9b3 Locked Candidate 1 <> 4 r67c9 r38 X-Wing <> 1 r56c1,r45c7 r39 X-Wing <> 2 r56c1,r45c7 r5 Naked Quad <> 4689 r5c38 <14+2> XY-Wing r1c3/r2c2+r5c3 <> 2 r4c2 c3b4 Locked Candidate 1 <> 2 r7c3 2-Fish r15\c39 S 1 200\020 <> 1 r6c9 2-Fish r5c2\c8b4 fm 110\011 <> 1 r7c8 2-Fish r5c2\r7b4 fm 110\101 <> 1 r7c8 2-Fish c8b7\r67 fF4 011\200 <> 4 r6c1 2-Fish c39\r47 S 1 020\200 <> 8 r4c7 2-Fish c39\r67 S 1 020\200 <> 8 r6c1 2-Fish r47\c37 S 1 200\020 <> 8 r89c7 2-Fish r47\c39 S 1 200\020 <> 8 r6c9 2-Fish c3b9\r47 fF3 011\200 <> 8 r4c7 2-Fish c9b7\r67 fF3 011\200 <> 8 r6c1 2-Fish r4b9\c37 fF3 101\020 <> 8 r7c3 2-Fish r4c9\c3b6 fm 110\011 <> 8 r7c3 2-Fish r4c9\r7b6 fm 110\101 <> 8 r7c3 Solution: 984752631523916784167384259718243965432569817659178342341697528876425193295831476 Puzzle #9: 98.7..6..7..........6.54....3..2.9....58...4.........5..85...6...74..52......1..8 c3b1 Locked Candidate 1 <> 4 r49c3 r2 b2 Locked Candidate 1 <> 8 r2c78 r3 b1 Locked Candidate 1 <> 1 r3c49 c4b2 Locked Candidate 1 <> 9 r9c4 r7 Naked Triple <> 134 r7c26 c48 X-Wing <> 1 r2c79 <29+3> XY-Wing r7c6/r1c6+r8c5 <> 3 r1c5 <29+3> XY-Wing r7c6/r5c6+r9c4 <> 3 r6c4 2-Fish c26\r17 S 1 020\200 <> 2 r1c3 2-Fish c26\r37 S 1 020\200 <> 2 r3c4 2-Fish c2b8\r37 fF2 011\200 <> 2 r3c4 2-Fish c6b7\r17 fF2 011\200 <> 2 r1c3 2-Fish r9b1\c34 fF3 101\020 <> 2 r3c4 2-Fish r9b2\c34 fF3 101\020 <> 2 r1c3 2-Fish r9c2\c4b7 fm 110\011 <> 2 r3c4 2-Fish r9c2\r3b7 fm 110\101 <> 2 r3c4 2-Fish r9c6\c3b8 fm 110\011 <> 2 r1c3 2-Fish r9c6\r1b8 fm 110\101 <> 2 r1c3 2-Fish c17\r27 S 1 020\200 <> 3 r2c3 2-Fish c17\r37 S 1 020\200 <> 3 r3c9 2-Fish c7b7\r27 fF2 011\200 <> 3 r2c3 2-Fish c1b9\r37 fF3 011\200 <> 3 r3c9 2-Fish r9b1\c34 fF3 101\020 <> 3 r3c4 2-Fish r9b2\c34 fF3 101\020 <> 3 r1c3 2-Fish r9c1\c4b7 fm 110\011 <> 3 r3c4 2-Fish r9c1\r3b7 fm 110\101 <> 3 r3c4 Solution: 984712653752386419316954872431625987275893146869147235128579364697438521543261798 Puzzle #10: 98.7..6..7..........6.54...5....3.8...85....6..74....2.1..2.9....58....4.......5. c3b1 Locked Candidate 1 <> 4 r47c3 r2 b2 Locked Candidate 1 <> 8 r2c79 r3 b1 Locked Candidate 1 <> 3 r3c48 c4b2 Locked Candidate 1 <> 9 r4c4 r5 Naked Triple <> 134 r5c26 c49 X-Wing <> 3 r2c78 <29+1> XY-Wing r5c6/r1c6+r6c5 <> 1 r1c5 <29+1> XY-Wing r5c6/r4c4+r8c6 <> 1 r9c4 2-Fish c17\r25 S 1 020\200 <> 1 r2c3 2-Fish c17\r35 S 1 020\200 <> 1 r3c8 2-Fish c7b4\r25 fF2 011\200 <> 1 r2c3 2-Fish c1b6\r35 fF3 011\200 <> 1 r3c8 2-Fish r4b1\c34 fF3 101\020 <> 1 r3c4 2-Fish r4b2\c34 fF3 101\020 <> 1 r1c3 2-Fish r4c1\c4b4 fm 110\011 <> 1 r3c4 2-Fish r4c1\r3b4 fm 110\101 <> 1 r3c4 2-Fish c26\r15 S 1 020\200 <> 2 r1c3 2-Fish c26\r35 S 1 020\200 <> 2 r3c4 2-Fish c2b5\r35 fF2 011\200 <> 2 r3c4 2-Fish c6b4\r15 fF2 011\200 <> 2 r1c3 2-Fish r4b1\c34 fF3 101\020 <> 2 r3c4 2-Fish r4b2\c34 fF3 101\020 <> 2 r1c3 2-Fish r4c2\c4b4 fm 110\011 <> 2 r3c4 2-Fish r4c2\r3b4 fm 110\101 <> 2 r3c4 2-Fish r4c6\c3b5 fm 110\011 <> 2 r1c3 2-Fish r4c6\r1b5 fm 110\101 <> 2 r1c3 Solution: 984732615752186493136954827541263789328579146697418532413625978275891364869347251

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:16 am

daj95376 wrote:Maybe we should have spent more time on the topic of technique hierarchy. Then these puzzles might not have been included in the first ten puzzles in one of champagne's recent lists for JExocets.

Good to hear this from someone else.

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:22 am

David P Bird wrote:I take it from the silence that the suggested partition between Junior & Advanced Exocets is worth running with at least for the time being.

Yes. Actually I would also consider the following partitions (within the JExocet family):
- non-degenerated vs degenerated
- standard vs Franken
- Junior vs Advanced Junior

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:24 am

champagne wrote:This is the second second post summarizing results on the sample test made in the grey/green areas.
At that point the question is what to share and how to do it.

Can you give one more result: the proportions of JE3 and JE4 in your whole list, each as a function of the number of clues?

by **champagne** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:13 am

just for information, I loaded the file of "not common" puzzles
here

Again,the classification just refers to the way my solver sees them. Some of them can be seen as very common by others.

Most often, we have

- a mix of JE2 and JE3
- more than 2 JEs

by **David P Bird** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:44 am

Hi Champagne

Sampling your puzzle collections I'm having problems with many of them recognising the JExocets your program has found. I suspect this is because it's reporting those where a given in the JE band is included in the base set. Is that right?

If so, how easy would it be for you to either
a) to screen these out
or
b) to screen out those with no eliminations in the target cells?

The JExocet signature pattern isn't that uncommon and will regularly appear in reduced cells in the easier puzzles. However I believe that in these circumstances only rarely will they be of any use.

It would take me ages to do this manually

David

by **champagne** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:49 am

daj95376 wrote:Maybe we should have spent more time on the topic of technique hierarchy. Then these puzzles might not have been included in the first ten puzzles in one of champagne's recent lists for JExocets.

we have here 2 different issues

The first one, somehow purely academic in the green area is " can we find the JE pattern with lower ratings"
The second one is "is the JE pattern a solving tool in these areas"

No doubt that in the green area, limited by construction to a SER rating 0f 7.5 (not more than classical XY chains), it has nearly no chance to be of any interest as solving tool.

In the grey area, SER ratings go form 7.5 to 10.8 (could be exceptionally more if I generated puzzles eligible to potential hardest but not yet in the data base)

Drawing conclusion on the potential interest of the exocets found as solving tool would likely require a split of the grey area in several sub areas.

Back to the first question " can we find the JE pattern with lower ratings".

Even here, I have several questions looking at the raw results.

One example: what is the meaning of a double 3 digit exocet.
I had a first look in the corresponding file in the green area and found highly downgraded patterns of small interest (if any). This meet some later remarks from David (I'll answer to that in a separate post).

I am preparing a run with no elimination at the start and I am expecting significantly different results, especially in the green area.

by **champagne** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:55 am

denis_berthier wrote:
champagne wrote:This is the second second post summarizing results on the sample test made in the grey/green areas.
At that point the question is what to share and how to do it.

Can you give one more result: the proportions of JE3 and JE4 in your whole list, each as a function of the number of clues?

I can surely do an analysis by number of clues. Seen the size of the files, this requires a specific code, so the answer in not for to-day.

EDIT
what I can easily do is a split using the original count of clues;
This is not at all the count at the moment the exocet was found, especially in the green area.

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:47 pm

champagne wrote:In the grey area, SER ratings go form 7.5 to 10.8

I defined grey zone with SER between 9.0 and 10.5. These were fuzzy values, but extending them overly makes it meaningless.

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:48 pm

champagne wrote:what I can easily do is a split using the original count of clues;
This is not at all the count at the moment the exocet was found, especially in the green area.

That's what I meant: #clues in the puzzle before any solving

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