It's A Trap!

Post puzzles for others to solve here.

Re: It's A Trap!

Postby denis_berthier » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:43 pm

SpAce wrote:
denis_berthier wrote:The remarks I made about the simplest-first strategy remain valid for them. There are other possible strategies for using forcing-whips/braids.
What the simplest-first strategy allows to observe is that forcing-whips/braids don't appear when whips/braids of same length are active.

I believe that. Even so, you might give more credit to the forcing-whips/braids approach as a practical manual solving strategy.

I'm totally agnostic about the use of such or such resolution rules. SudoRules has lots of generic rules and the user can choose whatever he wants. The manual user is still more free to combine them with a strategy different from simplest-first.
What I can say for sure is, whips are more productive than forcing-braids of same length. Now feel free to use what you want.

SpAce wrote: For that reason one does not have to know the backdoors beforehand to be able to hit them with a high probability. I'd switch to looking for more random direct contradictions only if such binary options have been exhausted (which implies a pretty hard puzzle).

SudoRules doesn't use backdoors. It can find them if asked to, but it's not part of its normal way of solving.

SudoRules is not based on "random direct contradictions" either (if, by this, you mean random choices for the targets of chains).
Targets of whips/braids/g-whips/g-braids are defined by a very precise and very restrictive pattern, a partial-whip[1] or partial-g-whip[1]. You should have a look at the Basic User Manual for elementary graphical representations of whips.
Partial-whips[1] are hardly more complex than full whips[1], i.e. intersections, the simplest pattern after Singles.

It is not a randomly chosen target that allows to start a whip. It is the first CSP-Variable of a partial-whip[1] satisfying a precise condition. This is in no way different from starting from any "verity" - to use this inadequate vocabulary.
denis_berthier
2010 Supporter
 
Posts: 4213
Joined: 19 June 2007
Location: Paris

Re: It's A Trap!

Postby jco » Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:27 pm

[quote(...) Furthermore, when a direct contradiction is found that way, it automatically solves something (possibly the whole puzzle) because the remaining option must be true. For that reason one does not have to know the backdoors beforehand to be able to hit them with a high probability. I'd switch to looking for more random direct contradictions only if such binary options have been exhausted (which implies a pretty hard puzzle).[/quote]

Hello SpAce,

Your comment on hitting backdoors in manual solving using GEM (and on GEM in general) is (are) very interesting for me.
Many times I struggle to solve difficult puzzles manually. Still don't have a firm grasp on GEM. I know Medusa Colouring very well and when a puzzle is weak to Medusa, I solve it quickly. I studied your previous presentation and the previous thread by David Bird. In difficult puzzles, I end up spending a lot of time to find good AICs (when Medusa does not help). Even after marking all strong links for each digit, since I end up using ad-hoc approaches to find AIC from the links, and it is not rare that some AICs found are not productive (meaning does not help advancing the puzzle). So, to solve manually a difficult puzzle I need many non-basic steps (like 10 to 15). Of course, this is what happens with Hodoku when you just ask for its standard solution, without exploring possibilities using the solver, but Hodoku steps are always productive!
Back to GEM, when a GEM solution is shown, it is always presented in the final configuration, making hard to someone trying to learn it to arrive at that configuration (this does not happen with Medusa).
I always searched for GEM solutions presented in steps, showing at least some possibility matrices of partial steps towards the final configuration (pictures/images are no good for me. Lots of colours and gets very confusing to follow, if grids where used instead it would having been easier IMO). Your GEM solutions presented in the section I understood completely (except for one).
However, when trying to use GEM in a puzzle twice I reached a false elimination (other times of course helped finding good eliminations and move on), which indicates still poor understanding on that part on 'promotion'.
Anyway, this is off-topic for this section, but I really wanted to emphasize the importance of your comments on GEM for people like me struggling to fully understand GEM. It is a shame that no GEM or Medusa Colouring solution has been presented anymore to solve a puzzle in this section.

Best regards,
jco
[Edit: small corrections in the text]
JCO
jco
 
Posts: 742
Joined: 09 June 2020

Re: It's A Trap!

Postby SpAce » Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:00 am

Hi jco,

Sorry about the late response.

Your comment on hitting backdoors in manual solving using GEM (and on GEM in general) is (are) very interesting for me.

Glad to hear that! I'm happy to help in any way I can.

Many times I struggle to solve difficult puzzles manually. Still don't have a firm grasp on GEM. I know Medusa Colouring very well and when a puzzle is weak to Medusa, I solve it quickly.

Medusa is a perfect starting point for learning GEM. In fact, the core cluster of par-candidates at the beginning of a GEM-coloring is a Medusa. However, as you must have noticed, it rarely gets you far -- hence the GEM-extensions.

When I start a GEM-coloring I almost always use a seed that produces the largest par-cluster, because it has the biggest chance of having backdoors and being productive in other ways. Solving it (i.e. finding a contradiction for one or the other parity) might solve the whole puzzle or at least a big part of it. Yet, as I've said, the primary goal is to find trap eliminations instead of a contradiction.

I studied your previous presentation

Do you mean this?

In difficult puzzles, I end up spending a lot of time to find good AICs (when Medusa does not help). Even after marking all strong links for each digit, since I end up using ad-hoc approaches to find AIC from the links, and it is not rare that some AICs found are not productive (meaning does not help advancing the puzzle).

I wouldn't worry about that too much. You're clearly on the right track. The more AICs (productive or not) you find, the more you learn. It's also good that you've learned to find them by marking and using the strong links directly, instead of relying only on coloring.

So, to solve manually a difficult puzzle I need many non-basic steps (like 10 to 15).

That's not dangerous per se. When I started learning AICs I tried to find as many of them as possible for a given puzzle state. I didn't even try to look for backdoors or weak points to attack. Sometimes I even delayed hitting the most effective eliminations on purpose to prolong the fun. Eventually it wasn't so much fun anymore, and then it became more interesting to find shorter solutions. All the gained experience helped with that, too.

Back to GEM, when a GEM solution is shown, it is always presented in the final configuration, making hard to someone trying to learn it to arrive at that configuration (this does not happen with Medusa).

Did the step-by-step instructions in the previous link help at all? I know it's a pretty complex example, but it should demonstrate the basic principles.

I always searched for GEM solutions presented in steps, showing at least some possibility matrices of partial steps towards the final configuration (pictures/images are no good for me. Lots of colours and gets very confusing to follow, if grids where used instead it would having been easier IMO).

Ah, in that case the linked example probably didn't help much. Does that mean you'd prefer GEM examples with David's notation? They're pretty tedious to produce.

Your GEM solutions presented in the section I understood completely (except for one).

Glad to hear. Which one did you not understand?

However, when trying to use GEM in a puzzle twice I reached a false elimination (other times of course helped finding good eliminations and move on), which indicates still poor understanding on that part on 'promotion'.

Promotions are probably the likeliest situations to make mistakes. They're not needed very often in normal puzzles, but they're important to find (continuous) loops.

Anyway, this is off-topic for this section, but I really wanted to emphasize the importance of your comments on GEM for people like me struggling to fully understand GEM.

Well, I'm glad to hear there's at least one person even wanting to learn GEM, and even happier if I've managed to help!

It is a shame that no GEM or Medusa Colouring solution has been presented anymore to solve a puzzle in this section.

I guess I'm the most likely person to produce them, but I'm pretty much retired from solving. Besides, most of the currently trending puzzles in this section are oriented towards software solvers. I don't have time or interest to solve them manually or to filter out ones that I'd like to. Fishy puzzles aren't well-suited for coloring solutions anyway.

While I appreciate that there's now more variance and learning opportunities than before, I have to admit I miss the consistently fun daily puzzles by Dan and tarek. Many of them didn't even need coloring, and the rest were perfectly suited for GEM. I also miss seeing others' creative solutions, which are less common and more scattered these days.
-SpAce-: Show
Code: Select all
   *             |    |               |    |    *
        *        |=()=|    /  _  \    |=()=|               *
            *    |    |   |-=( )=-|   |    |      *
     *                     \  ¯  /                   *   

"If one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic narrow view of the Jedi."
User avatar
SpAce
 
Posts: 2671
Joined: 22 May 2017

Re: It's A Trap!

Postby jco » Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:38 pm

Hello, SpAce,

Thank you for your reply. Regarding your question

Which one did you not understand?


this is the link

In that post, you mentioned "GEM coloring taken to the extremes (or a bit over)".
So, may be there was something more that you used (advanced feature
that I don't known) that caused me trouble. This was my impression at that
time. I should revisit again for a second attempt (to see if now I can figure it out).

Many thanks for your comments and suggestions!

Regards,
jco
JCO
jco
 
Posts: 742
Joined: 09 June 2020

Re: It's A Trap!

Postby SpAce » Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:30 pm

Hi jco,

jco wrote:this is the link

Thanks for the link! I'd totally forgot about that one. It might actually be a pretty good GEM-reference, unless I made mistakes.

In that post, you mentioned "GEM coloring taken to the extremes (or a bit over)".
So, may be there was something more that you used (advanced feature
that I don't known) that caused me trouble. This was my impression at that
time. I should revisit again for a second attempt (to see if now I can figure it out).

I must rework it myself to comment, but I don't have time right now. I'll get back to this when I do. In the mean time it's a good idea that you revisit it, too. It's always possible that I made a mistake, even though it's pretty rare.

Many thanks for your comments and suggestions!

No problem! Like I said, I'm glad to hear someone's interested in GEM.

--
Added. Here are the first few (very basic) coloring rounds reworked:

Round 1a. Par-grades (10): Show
Code: Select all
.--------------------.----------------.-------------------.
| 1      5     27    | 267   8   4    | 267‡9  37†9  2367 |
| 247    6     8     | 27    3   9    | 247    1     5    |
| 9      3     247   | 2567  57  1    | 2467   78    2678 |
:--------------------+----------------+-------------------:
| 467    8     467†9 | 1     24  5    | 3      †7‡9  27   |
| 5      2     1     | 37    9   37   | 8      6     4    |
| 47     47‡9  3     | 8     24  6    | 27†9   5     1    |
:--------------------+----------------+-------------------:
| 23467  47    2467  | 357   57  2378 | 1      378   9    |
| 8      1     257   | 9     6   237  | 57     4     37   |
| 37     ‡7†9  57‡9  | 4     1   378  | 567    2     3678 |
'--------------------'----------------'-------------------'

Round 1b. Sub-grades (26): Show
Code: Select all
.-----------------------.----------------.----------------------.
| 1        5      27    | 267   8   4    | ‡9.267  †9:37  2367  |
| 247      6      8     | 27    3   9    |  247     1     5     |
| 9        3      247   | 2567  57  1    |  2467    8:7   2678  |
:-----------------------+----------------+----------------------:
| 46:7     8     †9:467 | 1     24  5    |  3      †7‡9   2:7   |
| 5        2      1     | 37    9   37   |  8       6     4     |
| 47      ‡9.47   3     | 8     24  6    | †9:27    5     1     |
:-----------------------+----------------+----------------------:
| 2346.7   4.7    246.7 | 357   57  2378 |  1       38:7  9     |
| 8        1      25.7  | 9     6   237  |  57      4     37    |
| 3.7     †9‡7   ‡9.57  | 4     1   38.7 |  56.7    2     368.7 |
'-----------------------'----------------'----------------------'

Round 1c. Super-grades (11): Show
Code: Select all
.-------------------------.-----------------.-----------------------.
|  1        5      27     | 267   8    4    | ‡9.267  †9:37   267'3 |
|  247      6      8      | 27    3    9    |  247     1      5     |
|  9        3      247    | 2567  57   1    |  2467   '8:7    2678  |
:-------------------------+-----------------+-----------------------:
|  4'6:7    8     †9:467  | 1     24   5    |  3      †7‡9   '2:7   |
|  5        2      1      | 37    9    37   |  8       6      4     |
|  47      ‡9.47   3      | 8     4'2  6    | †9:27    5      1     |
:-------------------------+-----------------+-----------------------:
|  2346.7  "4.7    24'6.7 | 357   57   2378 |  1       8'3:7  9     |
|  8        1      2"5.7  | 9     6    237  |  57      4      37    |
| "3.7     †9‡7   ‡9.57   | 4     1    38.7 |  6"5.7   2      368.7 |
'-------------------------'-----------------'-----------------------'

Round 2a. Sub-grades & Eliminations (4): Show
Code: Select all
.---------------------------.-------------------.------------------------.
|  1          5      27     | 267    8    4     | ‡9.267  †9:37  '3:267  |
|  247        6      8      | 27     3    9     |  247     1      5      |
|  9          3      247    | 2567   57   1     |  2467   '8:7    67:28  |
:---------------------------+-------------------+------------------------:
| '6:47       8     †9:467  | 1      4:2  5     |  3      †7‡9   '2:7    |
|  5          2      1      | 37     9    37    |  8       6      4      |
|  47        ‡9.47   3      | 8     '2:4  6     | †9:27    5      1      |
:---------------------------+-------------------+------------------------:
|  2.47:6-3  "4.7   '6:2-47 | 57:3   57   278:3 |  1      '3:78   9      |
|  8          1     "5.27   | 9      6    237   |  7.5     4      7:3    |
| "3.7       †9‡7   ‡9.57   | 4      1    8.37  | "5.67    2      68.7-3 |
'---------------------------'-------------------'------------------------'

Round 2b. Super-grades & Placements (1): Show
Code: Select all
.---------------------------.---------------------.-------------------------.
|  1          5      27     | 267    8     4      | ‡9.267  †9:37  '3:267   |
|  247        6      8      | 27     3     9      |  247     1      5       |
|  9          3      247    | 2567   57    1      |  247"6  '8:7    67:28   |
:---------------------------+---------------------+-------------------------:
| '6:47       8     †9:467  | 1     '4:2   5      |  3      †7‡9   '2:7     |
|  5          2      1      | 7'3    9     37     |  8       6      4       |
|  47        ‡9.47   3      | 8     '2:4   6      | †9:27    5      1       |
:---------------------------+---------------------+-------------------------:
|  2.47:6-3  "4.7   '6:2-47 | 57:3   57    27'8:3 |  1      '3:78   9       |
|  8          1     "5.27   | 9      6     237    | "7.5     4     '7:3     |
| +3.7       †9‡7   ‡9.57   | 4      1    "8.37   | "5.67    2     '8"6.7-3 |
'---------------------------'---------------------'-------------------------'

Can you follow that far? At this point things start to get more interesting. If you look closely you should find several promotion opportunities and eliminations in that last coloring.
User avatar
SpAce
 
Posts: 2671
Joined: 22 May 2017

Re: It's A Trap!

Postby jco » Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:08 am

Hello SpAce,

Added. Here are the first few (very basic) coloring rounds reworked:

(...)

It is very unfortunate that only today I noticed this last important part you added with further details on GEM coloring rounds. Thank you very much!
You are always very generous sharing your knowledge, like here.
Sadly, you are not around for quite sometime now.
I hope to see you back in the forum soon.
Best regards,
jco
JCO
jco
 
Posts: 742
Joined: 09 June 2020

Previous

Return to Puzzles