The New Sudoku Players' Forum

[Pat]

I get the rating from my Sudoku Explainer version 1.1.
I think I read somewhere that the new version 1.2.1 gives higher ratings. Is that true?

yes

• Changed ratings for nested chains.
  Nesting level has now more impact on rating.
  (Basically, this only adds 0.2 to the rating of the rare Sudokus with at least a "xxx Forcing Chain (+Multiple Forcing Chain)"
  and 0.4 to those with "xxx Forcing Chain (+Dynamic Forcing Chain)".)

[gurth]

Another tweak of Golden Nugget gave me ai15, another M3 puzzle:

Edited 20 Sep 10: Correction: ai15 is NOT an M3 puzzle, as it falls to M2 solution.
See also my post of 20 Sep re ai15.

.......3......1..5..3.5.8....8.9...6.7...2...1..4..9....9.8..5..2....6..4..7.....
=

Code: Select all

 
 . . . . . . . 3 .
 . . . . . 1 . . 5
  . . 3 . 5 . 8 . .
  . . 8 . 9 . . . 6
  . 7 . . . 2 . . .
  1 . . 4 . . 9 . . 
  . . 9 . 8 . . 5 .
  . 2 . . . . 6 . .
  4 . . 7 . . . . 


My SEv1.1 says "fails to solve", or fails to rate.
So what could the rating be? 11.9? Or even more?

No way. Much lower. My rating system tells me that. Ai15 does not begin to compare with the top M3s, as can be seen from the following ratings:

Code: Select all

Golden Nugget............ZC13 (Zircon Rating : Class 13)
Fata Morgana.............ZC13
coly002..................ZC14
Platinum Blonde..........ZC17
tarx0003.................ZC18
coly001..................ZC18
tarx0004.................ZC19
tarx0003(name duplicate).ZC19
tarek071223170000-052....ZC26
pearly6000-3136;tarx0079.ZC27
Easter Monster...........ZC28
col0906 1503.............ZC30
col0906 4651.............ZC31
tarek's #1 of 7Sep07.....ZC31
tarek's #4 of 7Sep07.....ZC35
tarek's #5 of 7Sep07.....ZC45
ai15.....................ZC45
tarek's #2 of 7Sep07.....ZC48
tarek's #3 of 7Sep07.....ZC55
Ocean: 26May07:"Easiest".ZC59


[Pat]

Another tweak of Golden Nugget gave me ai15, another M3 puzzle:

.......3......1..5..3.5.8....8.9...6.7...2...1..4..9....9.8..5..2....6..4..7.....

Code: Select all

 
 . . . | . . . | . 3 .
 . . . | . . 1 | . . 5
 . . 3 | . 5 . | 8 . .
-------+-------+------
 . . 8 | . 9 . | . . 6
 . 7 . | . . 2 | . . .
 1 . . | 4 . . | 9 . .
-------+-------+------
 . . 9 | . 8 . | . 5 .
 . 2 . | . . . | 6 . .
 4 . . | 7 . . | . . .



My SEv1.1 says "fails to solve", or fails to rate.
So what could the rating be? 11.9? Or even more?

No way. Much lower. My rating system tells me that

probably 11.x

your rating is yours,
and his rating is his
-- do you really expect them to match ?

[gurth]

Pat, thanks for the info in your post of the 14th.
Re your question re ratings, I must say that I am fascinated by the different approaches to the problem of rating the hardness.
There are currently the 4 or 5 different systems, all very interesting to compare. None matches any other perfectly, but they DO match within certain limits, and all seem to have a general success.

For me, and many others I am sure, the SE is the most classic and interesting, being based more on a sequence of techniques based on criteria not directly related to computer-oriented techniques - by which I mean techniques apparently more related to how the computer can solve a problem, as opposed to how a human can.

Unfortunately the cost has been the massive expenditure of time involved in the SE rating of the hardest. Therefore I am attracted to the possibility of evolving a quick system that would match the SE results as well as possible.

If it seems to anyone that my efforts so far do not produce a good match, I would welcome any adverse comments. They would tell me that I need to improve my system a bit more. At least I can say that so far, my system agrees with SE in giving Golden Nugget the top rating, and the only other puzzles in my list whose SE I know, col0906 1503 and 4651, whose SERs are 11.2 and 11.3, also match each other closely in my system at ZC30 and ZC31.

If the SERs of the other puzzles in my list become available, then we will be able to assess the agreement between the two systems better.

[gurth]

I made a mistake when I called ai15 "another M3". It is not an M3 at all, and so does not belong in my list of Zircons (M3 Sapphires). It can be solved as an M2 puzzle with three different candidate pairs, and so it is a puzzle Diamond Class 3 (DC3).

Mind you, I suppose it is not written in stone (yet) that a Diamond may not be given a Zircon rating, as I did by accident.

In case you wish to see what other Diamonds compare with ai15's DC3, here is a list:

Code: Select all

tax m_b_mef..................SE 11.8....DC1 (S0)
tarekdb  Silver_Plate........SE 11.5....DC1 (S0)
tax dml-1....................SE 11.3....DC1 (S0)
colefg g182..................SE 11.3....DC1 (S6) -anomalous Sapphire rating
coly007......................SE ?   ....DC1 (S0)
coly012......................SE ?   ....DC1 (S3)
ocean's Coral#1 of 3Nov06....SE 10.0....DC1 (S2) -low SE

pearly6000-3046; tarx0002....SE ?   ....DC2 (S0)
coly013......................SE ?   ....DC2 (S0)
col-02-08-071................SE ?   ....DC2 (S0)
col0906 1276.................SE 11.2....DC2 (S0)
tarx0136.....................SE ?   ....DC2 (S2)
colefg ole006................SE 11.2....DC2 (S2)
GP H1 4......................SE 11.2....DC2 (S2)

tarx0140.....................SE ?   ....DC3 (S0)
ai15.........................SE ?   ....DC3 (S?)
colBF2 7.....................SE 11.2....DC5 (S0)
col 08 05 1192...............SE 11.2....DC6 (S0)
tax StrmCkr..................SE 11.6....DC7 (S0)
col0906 461..................SE 11.3....DC8 (S1)
col0906 583..................SE 11.2....DC8 (S6)
tarek ULTRA0203(from JPF's list    ?....DC8 (S0)
col0906 2257.................SE 11.2....DC9 (S0)
tax ONY......................SE 11.4....DC14(S0)


From this list I would estimate SE 11.2 for ai15, agreeing with Pat's guess.

[Pat]

Another tweak of Golden Nugget gave me ai15:

.......3......1..5..3.5.8....8.9...6.7...2...1..4..9....9.8..5..2....6..4..7.....

My SEv1.1 says "fails to solve", or fails to rate.
So what could the rating be? 11.9? Or even more?

No way. Much lower. My rating system tells me that

well i had guessed wrong

10.5/1.2/1.2

[gurth]

Code: Select all

1....7.4.
...8....5
..3.9.6..
.7.4..2..
..8.5..3.
9....6..1
..41..7..
5....2.8.
.6..3...9



A puzzle in what seems to be the most popular range at SER 7.1.
All methods of solution welcome on this thread.

[daj95376]

Code: Select all

 +--------------------------------------------------------------+
 |  1     2589  2569  |  2356  26    7     |  389   4     238   |
 |  2467  249   2679  |  8     1246  134   |  139   1279  5     |
 |  2478  2458  3     |  25    9     145   |  6     127   278   |
 |--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
 |  36    7     156   |  4    b18    389-1 |  2     569   68    |
 |  26-4  12-4  8     |  27-9  5    c19    | d49    3    e467   |
 |  9     2345  25    |  237   27-8  6     |  58-4  57    1     |
 |--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
 |  238   2389  4     |  1    a68    589   |  7     256   236   |
 |  5     139   179   | g679  g467   2     |  134   8    f46-3  |
 |  278   6     127   |  57    3     458   |  145   125   9     |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------+
 # 111 eliminations remain

 (6=8)r7c5 - (8=1)r4c5 - (1=9)r5c6 - (9=4)r5c7 - r5c9 = (4-6)r8c9 = (6)r8c45 - loop  =>

  -1 r4c6; -3 r8c9; -4 r5c12,r6c7; -8 r6c5; -9 r5c4


[Leren]

Code: Select all

*--------------------------------------------------------------*
| 1     2589  2569   | 2356  26    7      | 389   4     238    |
| 2467  249   2679   | 8     1246  134    | 139   1279  5      |
| 2478  2458  3      | 25    9     145    | 6     127   278    |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
|b36    7     15-6   | 4    a18   a1389   | 2     59-6 b68     |
| 246   124   8      | 27-9  5    c19     | 49    3     467    |
| 9     2345  25     | 237   278   6      | 458   57    1      |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
| 238   2389  4      | 1     68    589    | 7     256   236    |
| 5     139   179    | 679   467   2      | 134   8     346    |
| 278   6     127    | 57    3     458    | 145   125   9      |
*--------------------------------------------------------------*

Sue de Coq : Base cells r4c56, Row pincer cells r4c19, Box pincer cell r5c6 => - 6 r4c38, - 9 r5c4; stte

or

Code: Select all

*--------------------------------------------------------------*
| 1     2589  2569   | 2356  26    7      | 389   4     238    |
| 2467  249   2679   | 8     1246  134    | 139   1279  5      |
| 2478  2458  3      | 25    9     145    | 6     127   278    |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
|a36    7     156    | 4     18   b1389   | 2    c569   68     |
| 246   124   8      | 279   5     19     |d49    3     467    |
| 9    e245-3 25     | 237   278   6      |e458   57    1      |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
| 238   2389  4      | 1     68    589    | 7     256   236    |
| 5     139   179    | 679   467   2      | 134   8     346    |
| 278   6     127    | 57    3     458    | 145   125   9      |
*--------------------------------------------------------------*

(3) r4c1 = (3-9) r4c6 = r4c8 - (9=4) r5c7 - r6c7 = (4) r6c2 => - 3 r6c2; lclste

or

Code: Select all

*--------------------------------------------------------------*
| 1     2589  2569   | 2356  26    7      | 389   4     238    |
| 2467  249   2679   | 8     1246  134    | 139   1279  5      |
| 2478  2458  3      |a25    9     145    | 6     127   278    |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
| 36    7     156    | 4     18    1389   | 2     569   68     |
|c246  c124   8      |b279   5     19     | 49    3     467    |
| 9     2345 d25     | 237   278   6      |e458   57    1      |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
| 238   2389  4      | 1     68    589    | 7     256   236    |
| 5     139   179    | 679   467   2      | 134   8     346    |
| 278   6     127    | 7-5   3     458    |f145   125   9      |
*--------------------------------------------------------------*

W Wing with transport : (5=2) r3c4 - r5c4 = r5c12 - (2=5) r6c3 - r6c7 = (5) r9c7 => - 5 r9c4; stte

Leren

[ArkieTech]

Code: Select all

 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 1     2589  2569  | 2356  26    7     | 389   4     238   |
 | 2467  29    2679  | 8     1246  134   | 139   1279  5     |
 | 2478  2458  3     | 25    9     145   | 6     127   278   |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 36    7     156   | 4     1-8   1389  | 2    b569  a68    |
 | 246   124   8     | 279   5     19    | 49    3     467   |
 | 9     2345  25    | 237   278   6     | 458   57    1     |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 238   2389  4     | 1    d68    589   | 7    c256   236   |
 | 5     139   179   | 679   467   2     | 134   8     346   |
 | 278   6     127   | 57    3     458   | 145   125   9     |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
w-wing 86r4c9-r4c8=r7c8-68r7c5 => -8r4c5; ste

[bat999]

...All methods of solution welcome on this thread...

Steampunk method.

Code: Select all

.------------------.------------------.----------------.
| 1     2589  2569 | 2356  26    7     | 389  4     238 |
| 2467  249   2679 | 8     1246  134   | 139  1279  5   |
| 2478  2458  3    | 25    9     145   | 6    127   278 |
:------------------+-------------------+----------------:
| a36   7     156  | 4     c18   b1389 | 2    59-6  e68 |
| 246   124   8    | 279   5     d19   | 49   3     467 |
| 9     2345  25   | 237   278   6     | 458  57    1   |
:------------------+-------------------+----------------:
| 238   2389  4     | 1     68    589  | 7    256   236 |
| 5     139   179   | 679   467   2    | 134  8     346 |
| 278   6     127   | 57    3     458  | 145  125   9   |
'------------------'------------------'----------------'

If r4c1 is not 3 then r4c8 is not 6.
If r4c6 is not 3 it forms a locked set with r4c5 and r5c6 (and the 8 is either r4c6 or r4c5) so r4c9 is 6 and r4c8 is not 6.
=> - 6 r4c8; stte

[gurth]

- another SER 7.1 puzzle:

Code: Select all

1..9....5
.2.....9.
..36.18..
.1...8...
..74..9.1
9......2.
..28...3.
.5..6....
7....45..



[JC Van Hay]

1. Basics [including Skyscraper(5R36)]; UP42

Code: Select all

+--------------------+-----------------+--------------------+
| 1     7    48      | 9    2348   23  | 2346  46     5     |
| 4568  2    468     | 35   34578  37  | 1     9      347   |
| 45    9    3       | 6    2457   1   | 8     47     247   |
+--------------------+-----------------+--------------------+
| 246   1    456     | 235  9      8   | 346   4567   347   |
| 268   36   7       | 4    23(5)  236 | 9     6(58)  1     |
| 9     346  46-8(5) | 1    37(5)  367 | 346   2      34(8) |
+--------------------+-----------------+--------------------+
| 46    46   2       | 8    1      5   | 7     3      9     |
| 3     5    1       | 7    6      9   | 24    48     248   |
| 7     8    9       | 23   23     4   | 5     1      6     |
+--------------------+-----------------+--------------------+


2. [5r6c3=5r6c5-5r5c5=(5-8)r5c8=8r6c9]-8r6c3
3. Basics to the end [including XWing(3C49)]

[bat999]

- another SER 7.1 puzzle

Hi gurth
Thanks for the puzzle.
I did solve it, but not going to try and explain how.