+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
! 234 245 7 ! 6 1 9 ! 2348 58 245 !
! 1234 6 1239 ! 8 24 5 ! 234 179 247 !
! 8 12459 1259 ! 3 7 24 ! 246 159 2456 !
+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
! 7 3 4 ! 9 5 6 ! 1 2 8 !
! 9 12 6 ! 12 8 7 ! 5 4 3 !
! 5 8 12 ! 124 3 24 ! 7 6 9 !
+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
! 246 2457 258 ! 24 9 3 ! 2468 578 1 !
! 1246 12459 1259 ! 7 24 8 ! 246 3 2456 !
! 234 247 238 ! 5 6 1 ! 9 78 247 !
+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
! 234 245 7 ! 6 1 9 ! 2348 58 245 !
! 1234 6 12349 ! 8 2 5 ! 234 179 247 !
! 8 12459 12459 ! 3 7 24 ! 246 159 2456 !
+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
! 7 3 24 ! 9 5 6 ! 1 24 8 !
! 9 124 6 ! 124 8 7 ! 5 24 3 !
! 5 8 124 ! 124 3 24 ! 7 6 9 !
+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
! 246 2457 2458 ! 24 9 3 ! 2468 578 1 !
! 1246 12459 12459 ! 7 24 8 ! 246 3 2456 !
! 234 247 2348 ! 5 6 1 ! 9 78 247 !
+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
naked-single ==> r8c5=4
naked-single ==> r7c4=2
naked-single ==> r3c6=4
naked-single ==> r6c6=2
naked-pairs-in-a-column: c7{r3 r8}{n2 n6} ==> r7c7≠6, r1c7≠2
hidden-single-in-a-row ==> r7c1=6
hidden-pairs-in-a-column: c8{n1 n9}{r2 r3} ==> r3c8≠5, r2c8≠7
hidden-single-in-a-block ==> r2c9=7
finned-x-wing-in-columns: n4{c9 c1}{r9 r1} ==> r1c2≠4
biv-chain[3]: r7n7{c2 c8} - r9c8{n7 n8} - r7c7{n8 n4} ==> r7c2≠4
biv-chain[3]: r4c3{n2 n4} - r7n4{c3 c7} - r9c9{n4 n2} ==> r9c3≠2
biv-chain[3]: r7n4{c3 c7} - r2c7{n4 n3} - c3n3{r2 r9} ==> r9c3≠4
t-whip[3]: r1n3{c1 c7} - r2c7{n3 n4} - r1n4{c9 .} ==> r1c1≠2
whip[1]: c1n2{r9 .} ==> r8c2≠2, r8c3≠2, r9c2≠2
biv-chain[3]: r7n4{c7 c3} - r9c2{n4 n7} - r9c8{n7 n8} ==> r7c7≠8
327619854
164825397
895374216
732956148
946187523
581432769
658293471
219748635
473561982
+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
! 234 245 7 ! 6 1 9 ! 2348 58 245 !
! 1234 6 12349 ! 8 4 5 ! 234 179 247 !
! 8 12459 12459 ! 3 7 24 ! 246 159 2456 !
+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
! 7 3 24 ! 9 5 6 ! 1 24 8 !
! 9 124 6 ! 124 8 7 ! 5 24 3 !
! 5 8 124 ! 124 3 24 ! 7 6 9 !
+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
! 246 2457 2458 ! 24 9 3 ! 2468 578 1 !
! 1246 12459 12459 ! 7 24 8 ! 246 3 2456 !
! 234 247 2348 ! 5 6 1 ! 9 78 247 !
+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
naked-single ==> r8c5=2
naked-single ==> r7c4=4
naked-single ==> r3c6=2
naked-single ==> r6c6=4
naked-pairs-in-a-column: c7{r3 r8}{n4 n6} ==> r7c7≠6, r1c7≠4
hidden-single-in-a-row ==> r7c1=6
hidden-pairs-in-a-column: c8{n1 n9}{r2 r3} ==> r3c8≠5, r2c8≠7
hidden-single-in-a-block ==> r2c9=7
finned-x-wing-in-columns: n2{c9 c1}{r9 r1} ==> r1c2≠2
biv-chain[3]: r7n7{c2 c8} - r9c8{n7 n8} - r7c7{n8 n2} ==> r7c2≠2
biv-chain[3]: r4c3{n4 n2} - r7n2{c3 c7} - r9c9{n2 n4} ==> r9c3≠4
biv-chain[3]: r7n2{c3 c7} - r2c7{n2 n3} - c3n3{r2 r9} ==> r9c3≠2
t-whip[3]: r1n3{c1 c7} - r2c7{n3 n2} - r1n2{c9 .} ==> r1c1≠4
whip[1]: c1n4{r9 .} ==> r8c2≠4, r8c3≠4, r9c2≠4
biv-chain[3]: r7n2{c7 c3} - r9c2{n2 n7} - r9c8{n7 n8} ==> r7c7≠8
stte
giving directly the solution with the correct givens for r3c3,r3c8:
347619852
162845397
895372416
734956128
926187543
581234769
658493271
419728635
273561984
If you mean 'Why is the puzzle easier, after you substitute in r2c5?', probably the best way to find useful replacements is to do the same you do when trying to minimise the number of steps – count the easily available eliminations.denis_berthier wrote:Why does it work when we replace the 24 in r2c5? Said otherwise, what conditions must be checked for it to work for r2c5?
Out of everything, I didn't think this was unclear.eleven wrote:finally i got it. All the solution steps are the same then for both digits.
denis_berthier wrote:Hidden Text: Show
marek stefanik wrote:Next time I'll use letters to avoid confusion.
+-------+-------+-------+
| 1 . 9 | . 4 . | 5 . 2 |
| 7 . . | . . . | 8 . . |
| . 5 . | . . 3 | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . . 9 | . . . |
| 5 . . | . . 7 | . 3 . |
| 4 8 . | . . . | . . 9 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . 6 | 5 . . | . . . |
| 8 . . | . 7 . | 6 . 4 |
| . . . | . 9 4 | . . 8 |
+-------+-------+-------+
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 1 3 9 | 78 4 68 | 5 67 2 |
| 7 26 4 | 9 1256 1256 | 8 16 3 |
| 26 5 8 | 127 126 3 | 9 4 167 |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 236 1267 1237 | 124 123 9 | 1247 8 5 |
| 5 9 12 | 1248 1268 7 | 124 3 16 |
| 4 8 1237 | 12 12356 1256 | 127 126 9 |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 9 4 6 | 5 128 128 | 3 127 17 |
| 8 12 5 | 3 7 12 | 6 9 4 |
| 23 127 1237 | 6 9 4 | 12 5 8 |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 1 3 9 | 78 4 68 | 5 67 2 |
| 7 26 4 | 9 1256 1256 | 8 16 3 |
| 26 5 8 | 127 126 3 | 9 4 167 |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 236 1267 1237 | 124 123 9 | 1247 8 5 |
| 5 9 12 | 1248 1268 7 | 124 3 16 |
| 4 8 1237 | 12 12356 1256 | 127 126 9 |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
| 9 4 6 | 5 128 128 | 3 127 17 |
| 8 #12 5 | 3 7 #12 | 6 9 4 |
| 23 127 1237 | 6 9 4 |#12 5 8 |
+----------------------+----------------------+----------------------+
I think you can get better results with a box then a row, because then you'll leave four boxes completely untouched, whereas in your example you only leave two.eleven wrote:I generated some puzzles with 1 and 2 only in a row 1.
eleven wrote:...this tricky technique.
I never had heard of that. Who has found it, does it have a name and are there more examples ?
denis_berthier wrote:Why does it work when we replace the 24 in r2c5? Said otherwise, what conditions must be checked for it to work for r2c5
marek stefanik wrote:If you mean 'Why is the puzzle easier, after you substitute in r2c5?', probably the best way to find useful replacements is to do the same you do when trying to minimise the number of steps – count the easily available eliminations.
marek stefanik wrote:If you're asking about the conditions for the replacement to even be possible (whether or not it helps the solution path), there are a few things to consider.
Firstly you cannot make up any information affecting the rookery from outside.
marek stefanik wrote:Secondly you have to make sure to keep all the information you initially had.
You cannot quite use it in your simplest-first strategy.denis_berthier wrote:But that introduces an uncomputable amount of complexity in the solution.
You're right, I should have specified I only meant information common to both digits.denis_berthier wrote:marek stefanik wrote:Secondly you have to make sure to keep all the information you initially had.
Not necessarily. In my explanation, in the transformation of state RS1, I re-introduce candidates 2 or 4 in places where they had been eliminated.
Let n be the number of digits that are substituted for.denis_berthier wrote:there is no a priori condition on the cells/candidates to be replaced that would make it legitimate - in the sense that it would guarantee the transformed puzzle has exactly the same solution(s).
Yes, it is. I believe eleven was joking when he said he'd never heard of that.denis_berthier wrote:and indeed for eleven's approach - which for me is the same
marek stefanik wrote:You cannot quite use it in your simplest-first strategy.denis_berthier wrote:But that introduces an uncomputable amount of complexity in the solution.
There are many ways you could replace and they'll lead to different solution paths, so you cannot quite tell which of them is the simplest without trying out all of them.
Your few-steps algorithm already chooses promising steps, though, so maybe you could find a way to fit it in there (probably not allowing more than one replacement per path, with the exception of switching back to the original givens).
marek stefanik wrote:You're right, I should have specified I only meant information common to both digits.denis_berthier wrote:marek stefanik wrote:Secondly you have to make sure to keep all the information you initially had.
Not necessarily. In my explanation, in the transformation of state RS1, I re-introduce candidates 2 or 4 in places where they had been eliminated.
marek stefanik wrote:Let n be the number of digits that are substituted for.denis_berthier wrote:there is no a priori condition on the cells/candidates to be replaced that would make it legitimate - in the sense that it would guarantee the transformed puzzle has exactly the same solution(s).
If you delete the givens into a sukaku and keep potential equivalencies (such as the one in the second example from the hardest thread), your puzzle will have n! times more solutions then the original one.
I'm just saying that the way you tackle your problem without the replacement might be the best way to tackle the replacement as well.denis_berthier wrote:No, I think those are unrelated topics. The problem tackled by my (and DEFISE) few steps algorithm is exponentially more complex than solving (and rating) a puzzle. That would make using your/eleven's technique much harder than not using it.
No, I just said you were right and corrected my formulation.denis_berthier wrote:I don't see what this is. Can you give an example in state RS1 before/after the transformation? Did I loose any "information common to both digits" in this process?
The equivalencies are obvious from the original givens.denis_berthier wrote:"potential equivalencies" is an uncomputable information input into the transformed puzzle.
Au contraire. Let's have a look at the puzzle I've used as an example.denis_berthier wrote:There's no proof it compensates for the information lost in the change of variables.
denis_berthier wrote:eleven wrote:...this tricky technique.
I never had heard of that. Who has found it, does it have a name and are there more examples ?
I would have thought it was your variables replacement technique. What's different with it?
marek stefanik wrote:The equivalencies are obvious from the original givens.denis_berthier wrote:"potential equivalencies" is an uncomputable information input into the transformed puzzle.
If you mean your solver cannot work with that information, that doesn't mean it's impossible.
On the other hand, the fact that 'the little gray cells' can handle that, proves it is possible.
marek stefanik wrote:Au contraire. Let's have a look at the puzzle I've used as an example.denis_berthier wrote:There's no proof it compensates for the information lost in the change of variables.